Questions for Men: Polarity in Man/Woman Relationships

Yeah, I think it's probably good to keep to the original intention of the post. Honesty, men have almost no outlet for this type of discussion without being darn near immediately cancelled these days, and we don't talk amongst ourselves about such things as much as women do. So, I think it is productive.

For me personally, I think it is assumed that love is what we are after. I think the issue is that male/female relationships are so contorted these days and it's so much of a warzone of misunderstanding, that basic rules of respect need to be shown to give space for love to blossom. This might not be self-obvious to someone who has been married for 50 years in an older generation. Which is fine, but I agree with what Megan said on that. I've had relationships in the past decade where love has been declared very early and very strongly, which surprised and excited me at first, but I've learned to be very wary of now. I'm all about friendship first, developing a basic level of respect and trust, and letting the love bubble up from below. However, also allowing that matters of the heart are out of my control and I don't make the rules. I've just been burned a fair amount at this point, and it seems like a lot of single people feel that way nowadays.

Jim Veteto wrote:Yeah, I think it's probably good to keep to the original intention of the post. Honesty, men have almost no outlet for this type of discussion without being darn near immediately cancelled these days, and we don't talk amongst ourselves about such things as much as women do. So, I think it is productive.

For me personally, I think it assumed that love is what we are after. I think the issue is that male/female relationships are so contorted these days and it's so much of a warzone, that basic rules of respect need to be shown to give space for love to blossom. This might not be self-obvious to someone who has been married for 50 years in an older generation. Which is fine, but I agree with what Megan said on that. I've had relationships in the past decade where love has been declared very early and very strongly, which surprised and excited me at first, but I've learned to be very wary of now. I'm all about friendship first, developing a basic level of respect and trust, and letting the love bubble up from below. However, also allowing that matters of the heart are out of my control and I don't make the rules. I've just been burned a fair amount at this point, and it seems like a lot of single people feel that way nowadays.

Understood.
I have married sons and adult (single) grandsons so my interest in reading this thread comes from there...and, of course, my guy is one and we've been pondering this thread together, then there's a brother and male friends...neighbor's, etc....plenty of males of all ages in our circle
I appreciate the personal thoughts so well expressed here and will continue to read and learn.

Wow, thank you for your candor, C. I've now read your post three or four times and I've been contemplating what you wrote here. I wouldn't have understood your viewpoint a year ago, but I'm understanding it now. Your example of the woman at church was really helpful. It sounded like a rather innocent, insignificant thing, and yet I understand how her action was disrespectful and will alter what you might share with her in future interactions. Though I wouldn't have thought to frame it as disrespectful, it makes sense and I, too, might take care around her in the future.

Thank you for writing more about emotions and vulnerability. There is so much I could write and so many questions I would like to ask about this. Much of what I'm curious about is how men experience emotion and what causes communicating emotion to feel so challenging between men and women.

What you say about women losing trust and respect for a man after he's shown emotion is true. I watched the Brene Brown short and nearly cried. I have had the experience of losing attraction to and respect for partners who express emotion in certain ways. These experiences do not include a man telling me what emotion he's feeling or crying a bit. It has been the result of having witnessed what I had perceived as emotional meltdowns. But even so, it has been a confusing, disheartening, and disconcerting experience. When that has happened I haven't known what is happening within me. I experience it as an emotional shift over which I have no control. It is not a conscious choice to view the man differently.

I am reflecting on what I've been learning about the biological needs of men and women, and I'm wondering if this response in women is biologically based. I may be completely wrong on this, but this is my feeling. According to what I've learned, women need to be loved, protected, and provided for. And men need to love, protect, and provide.

On a basic level it makes some sense that seeing men express a lot of emotion causes women to feel they can't trust a man to protect or provide for them, in which case, no, they would not feel safe in submitting. I know as a woman that I need a man to demonstrate what I view as good judgment nearly all of the time. Everyone makes mistakes. But if I am going to trust a man as deeply as I want to, I need to perceive that his judgment is at least as good as mine.

Right now I'm wondering . . .

Is it actually more natural for men to suppress emotion rather than to express it?

When it comes to women losing respect and trust for a man, is it more in HOW he's expressing emotion, than that he is expressing emotion at all? For example, if he is more childlike about it than mature?

I know I'm basically directing these questions toward you, but I'm mostly just including them in the conversation. I have no expectation for you to answer them. Though I wouldn't refuse answers either, if you so choose to provide them.

C. Letellier wrote:Jim has done a nice job of starting the conversation on respect.  Guys give a lot of ground to avoid fights.  Why?  Because the consequences are so bad.  Kill or be killed possibly.  Women are afraid more of the time and historically have given ground differently because of the size differential.  The modern masculine woman is sort of trying to have her cake and eat it too.  For well raised guys beating her is off the table and as long as she doesn't raise the consequences to being worth terminating her she can throw her weight around without consequences that even the normal guys would face interacting with other guys.  Well most guys are going to object being put in that sort of situation where they can't socially fight back(because their tool kit doesn't include the tools women learned), can't physically fight back as the male answer.  A well raised guy just doesn't do certain things.  And the modern feminist is taking advantage of that to get her way often.  Well do you really think the guy is going to want that?

Historically and what the guy is looking for is for the lady to at least publicly be his biggest supporter most of the time and in private to at least fight fair.  There is more to it than that but I would sum it up as a feminine respect.  And the lady doesn't have to behave against the grain very often for the guy to lose the ability to trust her and begin taking action to protect himself.   Most women fail to recognize that most guys only truly have respect and love for what they do.  Women are given inherent value for just existing but guys only get that value by earning it.  So when the woman is "stealing" that she is basically saying he is worthless.  Is the guy going to want to be there?

And it is other small things too.  Lets take one of mine from the last couple months.  About 2 months ago we got a new family at church.  Another guy and I stopped to check on them and visit one Sunday after they moved in.  The lady was intelligent, wide ranging interests and very friendly.  Enjoyed the visit.  Now one of the things learned from her because she flat out said it was she had no filter.  Advance a few weeks and we are doing a broadcast out at the church and I am in charge of setting maintaining the equipment for that.  First day the lady is in with her kids because the TV stuff isn't set up at home yet.  Second day a gal from the other section of the church we share the building with and non member friend show up for the broadcast.  The first gal comes in late and hearing her kids coming in I go out to see what is going on.  She asks who else is there and I tell her about the gal and her friend.  Problem is that suddenly I can't think of the gal's name.  So I embarrassed tell her that.  So she proceeds to go in and introduce herself using the fact that I couldn't remember the gals name as her opening.  Now that is a public embarrassment for me.(minor I will admit)  But that means I know the fact that the gal has no filter means I will NEVER trust her with similar information again.  If this were in dating that just raised a road block because I know I have to filter everything I say to her.(it isn't dating because she is married)  But it is a small disrespect of me.  Instead of protecting me she chose to minorly embarrass me thus indirectly saying I have no value.  She could just as easily just said "Hi, my name is ...." without using me as her social lever for introductions.    It is thru these small actions showing the guy that the lady honors him and values him.  

Now another piece of this is all the women talking about EQ(emotional quotient) and wanting guys to share.  The trouble is while women say this is what they want very few women can handle this properly.  Many will use the guy's weaknesses as a weapon.  And most of the rest will lose respect for the guy.   Here is short Brene Brown video that explains it well.  [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RC1919tTab0[/youtube].

A different video provided a nice alternate answer on vulnerability.  Their argument was that women were asking for this sharing but explained why they didn't deal with it well.  The conclusion the speakers for this video gave was that what women were looking for was totally guaranteed emotional support of themselves and thought reciprocity on this issue would give it to them.  But it goes against their natural instinct.  Women want the guy who is strong because if they are trust the guy they want the guy with no weaknesses.  So by the guy sharing the guy showing weakness is showing he can't be trusted to always be strong so then she can't submit safely.

Love goes both ways. As someone said earlier, we men like to look outwards, and women like to look inwards, that's the biggest difference. If you demand attention and I give it to you, we are both loving, since you are accepting my attention. It's a give and accept matter. Love between friends is like that. Love between lovers is giving attention and intimacy.

I don't agree that men do not express emotions. We just do not want to show anything perceived as weakness. Anger and joy can be expressed freely. Fear and pain, only when it is safe to do so. If you have to face a wild animal and you show it fear, you are in more danger than if you keep calm. We can feel fear as long as we control it and do not panic. Fear keeps us alive, it would be stupid to not feel it, while panic may save us in certain cases, but it puts us in risk too.
So maybe what sets you back was the manifestation of uncontrolled emotions. That's typical for teenagers and some young people, not for adults. A man who cannot control himself is dangerous.

It is fashionable these days to say that it is ok to have these meltdowns, as you put it, But I see this to be similar to an illness. You can caught a flu, and it is OK, everyone catches a flu now and then, but you are not OK, you are sick, and need to recover. So if I ever crumble from anxiety (which comes to visit me sometimes), I try not to blame myself for being weak, but it is not a state I want to be. I've learned how to recover on my own, so I try not to show it when I am through a crisis. I want my family to think I am there for them so they do not have to worry. My family being worried would be counterproductive for my recovery, you know? I need discussions and laughs and even pain, so my worries can fade to a degree where I can face the problems one by one and take action.

In this sense, our emotions are like our gut bacterias. We need them all, but sometimes one of them becomes dominant and it causes problems. The solution is not to suppress the dominant bacteria, but to enhance the others.

Sorry for the walkaround.

I was taking my time in responding, wanting to have something insightful to share. But I have been traveling am my brain feels tired. All I can say at the moment is that I'm really grateful for the conversation about respect. I'm spending a lot of time thinking about it. I can only speak for myself, but somehow I did not get passed a copy of "How to Respect Men."  ;)

Jim Veteto wrote: "The modern masculine woman is sort of trying to have her cake and eat it too.  For well raised guys beating her is off the table and as long as she doesn't raise the consequences to being worth terminating her she can throw her weight around without consequences that even the normal guys would face interacting with other men."

What C. Letellier is saying here is absolutely correct from my perspective. Cake and eating it too indeed. I had come to this conclusion myself previously but forgot to mention it in the post. If you are a decent man, the woman knows you aren't going to strike her. She takes advantage of this and & acts with impunity in ways that would get a dude's you-know-what kicked. This is a very unfortunate dynamic that was less likely to occur in the past. There is no chance for positive male-female dynamics with this sort of interaction going on unless the guy is totally passive, which usually ends up not being what the woman really wants anyway. As C pointed out, the basic issue is respect, and that's a street that has to run both ways.

Well now, welcome home, Megan. When you posted this, I didn't realize it was you. Now you've traveled all the way across the country, from Ariz. to Ohio, just to stay at Stone Garden Farm. Now I don't have to write a long, windy reply to the question. We can just talk about it over tea by the fire. ~~And anybody else who also wants to talk about polarities and relationships (and community), come on down. We have more tea.

Haha! Thank you, Jim. I'm looking forward to some interesting conversations.

Jim Fry wrote:Well now, welcome home, Megan. When you posted this, I didn't realize it was you. Now you've traveled all the way across the country, from Ariz. to Ohio, just to stay at Stone Garden Farm. Now I don't have to write a long, windy reply to the question. We can just talk about it over tea by the fire. ~~And anybody else who also wants to talk about polarities and relationships (and community), come on down. We have more tea.

Megan Helen wrote:Wow, thank you for your candor, C. I've now read your post three or four times and I've been contemplating what you wrote here. I wouldn't have understood your viewpoint a year ago, but I'm understanding it now. Your example of the woman at church was really helpful. It sounded like a rather innocent, insignificant thing, and yet I understand how her action was disrespectful and will alter what you might share with her in future interactions. Though I wouldn't have thought to frame it as disrespectful, it makes sense and I, too, might take care around her in the future.
...........

Right now I'm wondering . . .

Is it actually more natural for men to suppress emotion rather than to express it?

When it comes to women losing respect and trust for a man, is it more in HOW he's expressing emotion, than that he is expressing emotion at all? For example, if he is more childlike about it than mature?

I know I'm basically directing these questions toward you, but I'm mostly just including them in the conversation. I have no expectation for you to answer them. Though I wouldn't refuse answers either, if you so choose to provide them.

Okay first off let me say I am probably a non ideal guy to be looking for about my emotional reaction.  I am aspie.  Some things as best I can tell I feel the emotions far stronger than those around me.  A few things I think my levels are about equal to those around me.  Many things I think I feel at lessor levels than those around me and there are a few that I feel almost nothing on.

First a comment on the gal's sharing what I would rather not have had shared.  If for some reason it had been needful to share I would have been fine with her sharing it.  But by sharing it where it wasn't needful and where it was costing me a bit means I will be more careful in the future.

Second.  There are mostly hardwired differences between the genders.  Men mostly NEED the respect but want the love.  Women on the other hand NEED the love  and want the respect.  Worse yet they define them differently too.  I find most men understand the difference when discussing this.  Women on the other hand will often say they need both love and respect.  And they do not truly seem to understand the difference in the broad spectrum sense.  Women need to feel safe/protected and they get that through love actions more than thru respect.  Having this discussion is difficult though as often times there are slight differences by gender in expectations and definitions.

Now for your questions.

Is it more natural for men to suppress or express?  I am going to say probably about even to begin with.  But after enough years of hard lessons and pain most men it becomes more natural to suppress.  Yes I realize it costs mental health and pain to do so.  But that pain is less than the sharing would be in most cases.  Speaking personally I am by nature more inclined to share but thousands of hard lessons thru the years mean I am extremely careful what I share.  So I tend to build slowly till the lady shows she is not someone I can trust.  Very few women know my soul and they have earned that right over decades.  Most will never be let in even if it kills me.  

Now as to whether it is about sharing at all vs sharing improperly I will argue that it is both and covers a spectrum.  I am going to say about 5% to 10% of women are in full conscious control of their reactions.(these ladies are very special and rare)  For them only a real uncontrolled melt down will matter.  The rest they will continue to be there  They will mostly make the right decisions to support the guy and will show the respect.  Then you will have say 25% who will be aware of the melt down but who are also aware of some other reactions and they will work to control some of their instinctive reactions but mostly these need to be pointed out to them in most cases.   Some of these women are worthy of trust.  But most need to be walled away because they can't be trusted and will prove it by their actions.   Third rough group is the biggest and is the women who will be aware of their reaction to the melt down type thing but all of their other reactions are totally instinctive.  The biggest difference here is they can't or won't acknowledge the instinctive part of the reactions if discussion is attempted.  These women will pull away from the guy when he shows any weakness without even realizing it in most cases.  Simply put weeks or months later she will be looking for someone new having fallen away from the guy and she won't be able to say why.   Final group is those who don't consciously recognize any of it and even with discussion miss it all.  Complicating looking at this is scattered through out all of them are a few women who instinctively mostly do everything right no matter what their understanding is.  The Brene Brown thing I posted is very much true for most men from the women around them.   Funny thing is most of the women will deny.  But they will then turn right around and prove it true.  It is part of the list of things women lie about or fail to understand.  It is why the most important thing guys need to know is watch the lady's action and not her words.(mistake I basically made for 4 decades by listening without checking her actions)

Hi Abraham, thank you for all of this, and especially for using the precise words you did in your first paragraph.

You wrote exactly what I mean about men needing to love and women needing to be loved. Of course, both men and women need to love and to feel loved, they are both giving and receiving. And yet they are different. My understanding is that the man is outwardly focused, and his need to provide is quite strong. When a woman is fully open to his love and receives it, this is her natural feminine way of loving him in return. My understanding is that between the man and woman, this is a form of polarity.

I appreciate what you said here about not suppressing emotions but enhancing others. I agree that all emotions are valuable and need to be felt. The example you used about recovering from anxiety on your own helps me put myself in the shoes of a man. That's really helpful. Thank you again.

Abraham Palma wrote:Love goes both ways. As someone said earlier, we men like to look outwards, and women like to look inwards, that's the biggest difference. If you demand attention and I give it to you, we are both loving, since you are accepting my attention. It's a give and accept matter. Love between friends is like that. Love between lovers is giving attention and intimacy.

I don't agree that men do not express emotions. We just do not want to show anything perceived as weakness. Anger and joy can be expressed freely. Fear and pain, only when it is safe to do so. If you have to face a wild animal and you show it fear, you are in more danger than if you keep calm. We can feel fear as long as we control it and do not panic. Fear keeps us alive, it would be stupid to not feel it, while panic may save us in certain cases, but it puts us in risk too.
So maybe what sets you back was the manifestation of uncontrolled emotions. That's typical for teenagers and some young people, not for adults. A man who cannot control himself is dangerous.

It is fashionable these days to say that it is ok to have these meltdowns, as you put it, But I see this to be similar to an illness. You can caught a flu, and it is OK, everyone catches a flu now and then, but you are not OK, you are sick, and need to recover. So if I ever crumble from anxiety (which comes to visit me sometimes), I try not to blame myself for being weak, but it is not a state I want to be. I've learned how to recover on my own, so I try not to show it when I am through a crisis. I want my family to think I am there for them so they do not have to worry. My family being worried would be counterproductive for my recovery, you know? I need discussions and laughs and even pain, so my worries can fade to a degree where I can face the problems one by one and take action.

In this sense, our emotions are like our gut bacterias. We need them all, but sometimes one of them becomes dominant and it causes problems. The solution is not to suppress the dominant bacteria, but to enhance the others.

Sorry for the walkaround.