gapper program 2.0

Scott Dietrich wrote:I just sent you an email sir! I was wondering if my 2015 nissian versa 2 wheel drive will make it to property?

It will make it to basecamp about 99.5% of the time.

It will make it to the lab about 90% of the time.

I'm glad Paul clarified the road situation for y'all. This year we've had a bit more snow than usual. Most winters are solid, frozen ground that is fairly dry and easy to traverse because it snows a bit, then the sun comes out and melts most or all of it away. We've been snowplowing the driveway and road to the lab a bit more than a typical winter.

Plus, a further update to say that we're a little quiet around here for January and February - still LOTS to do, just not so many folks here at the moment. There are only 3-4 here in addition to Paul and myself. More folks will be returning in March and April, so things will seem more lively then.

Hey everybody! There's a new housing thread that is super relevant to anyone looking to come out to the land - https://permies.com/t/52736/labs/State-Lodging#428013

So I just spent about three hours looking at travel arrangements, animal arrangements, and my tentative take this job.....I ain't workin' here no more date. It looks like I could come get giddy for two weeks in mid-later May. Of course, I want to make this crazy decision before Sunday night. Quit the job and move out of state to my farm is not crazy. That's been coming together for quite some time. But it didn't involve an immediate "vacation". I was thinking more like some tilling, planting and part time job searching, and moving my chickens and dogs.
It would help tremendously to pin down a couple things. Any "super week" or special activity going on May/early June? After getting thoroughly disgusted with possible flights and prices, I'm thinking it may be time to make that drive cross country I've never done. Would I be able to bring my vehicle on site and camp in it? I'm perfectly willing to let it stay put the entire time. If that's not in line with the way things work, is there a park and hike in with the tent I will need to borrow option? This is exciting!!

Hi Miriam and welcome to the forums!

Miriam Jarvis wrote:It would help tremendously to pin down a couple things. Any "super week" or special activity going on May/early June?

We do not currently have super weeks planned for this year (2016) - yet. There has been some brain storming about doing something in July, though nothing firm yet.

Miriam Jarvis wrote:Would I be able to bring my vehicle on site and camp in it? I'm perfectly willing to let it stay put the entire time.

Yes, folks can bring vehicles. There is plenty of parking at base camp, with some bicycles available for traveling between base camp and the lab. There is currently parking on the lab, too, though that will be limited at some point down the road.

Miriam Jarvis wrote:If that's not in line with the way things work, is there a park and hike in with the tent I will need to borrow option? This is exciting!!

As Sharla mentioned in the housing thread, there are some limited housing options, and we do have some extra tents, too.

We're excited, too! It's looking like a great year here at the labs!

Gapper fee sent.

I think the bunking part has been explained...sort of. I assume I just bring a sleeping bag to throw down where ever you point. At what point do you think compost showers will be available again? I assume the experience will be a bit like camping. The part about feeding my self has some gaps in it. Some general questions...
1. Is there some kitchen facility, utensils available or do you just point to a rocket stove and I have to have all the stuff from there.
2. I will be flying in. so traveling light. Will whoever pick me up stop for me to stock up on some stuff on the way out to the lab? Probably in this order...Habitat Restore, hardware store (fire brick available too?), grocery store. Hmm...maybe somebody in a truck?

Rob

The compost showers could be rolling again in a few weeks. It would require that the pile get charged with nitrogen and oxygen. And it would require that somebody with super powers in human discipline take care of the showers to prevent frost damage.

In the meantime, we have been opening the house up to showers on feast night, which has been Mondays. One person ask if they could shower more often and we worked that out.

Yes, when you get picked up you will get an opportunity to get groceries other things. Unless of course you are showing up at midnight or something like that.

There is a kitchen like space in Allerton Abbey and another in wofati 0.8.

Yes, you'll have a place to throw down your sleeping bag. And as it gets warmer, I think most people prefer their own tent.

Hi there,

I am interested in coming out as a GAPPer and checking things things out/ lend a hand sometime in the next month or so. Any time stick out as being good for a visit? Maybe after that compost heated shower is up and running I've been following permies for years now and I'm in Montana right now, be great to see the latest projects! I'd be very happy to help with any stove, building, or appropriate tech projects.

Regards

Shay

Ok, a couple more gapper 2.0 questions.
I have been looking around the forums and listening to podcasts but I can't seem to find anyone telling exactly how the food logistics work. I don't mind fending for myself but I would like to plan.

I gather you will bunk somewhere either at base camp, the lab or the abbey depending on availability.

Water is only available at base camp. So if I want to cook some oatmeal for breakfast I have to hump it down to base camp (2 miles?) get water (my own food safe/water containers?) get some water. Go back to the abbey get a pot and heat the water on a stove (rocket? that I have to gather wood for...) cook the oatmeal, eat, clean the dishes. Then go somewhere and help out. Then depending on what I have available for lunch...and dinner it starts all over again.

Where do I store my food stuffs while I am there? I guess I can have nothing that requires refrigeration? Is there still a rodent problem at the abbey and I have to have rodent proof containers for my food stuff (I am a little anal about rodents and food).

I guess what I would like to see is like a simple day in the life of a gapper 2.0 ...I have no problem with work, I have worked all my life but I would like to hear the day as it unfolds from shelter, hygiene, water, meal, work, meal, work, water, hygiene, shelter.... Maybe it is just me, but on one of the recent podcasts part of this came up (shelter i think is was with the guy that had listened to them all) as it has not been clear in the podcasts, or maybe I could not find it in the forums.

Anyway clarification would be good here.

Thomas/Rob,

When I go camping I usually bring containers for storing water. For now, you can think of life at the labs as akin to camping.

Kai and I have a few clean 7 and 5 gallon water jugs that we fill up when we're down at basecamp and usually store in the Abbey. I'm sure you'd be welcome to use them to stay hydrated and cook your oats...

There's a propane stove in the Abbey you can use to cook on, but if you'd prefer to use a rocket that's cool too.

The Abbey is usually around 45 degrees lately, so even perishable food doesn't go bad too quickly, but bringing primarily non-perishables is a good idea. Rodent proof containers are also a good idea. I think I even have one or two plastic tubs I can spare.

Showering at the lab is currently problematic. I have a couple solar bag showers but they're only really useful in the summer. And the limited water supply usually means conserving it for drinking, cooking, washing up before and after meals, but I don't think we would begrudge you a gallon or two a day to warm up on the stove and dump over your head for a birdbath. If you wanted to use more water for birdbaths or just if you wanted your own water supply you could get a few jugs of your own and I think it's likely that if any were empty and someone was driving down to basecamp and back they wouldn't mind filling them up for you. Most of us tend to only shower properly once a week, feast days at basecamp, currently mondays.

I hope this answers your questions.

Shay Hoh wrote:Hi there,

I am interested in coming out as a GAPPer and checking things things out/ lend a hand sometime in the next month or so. Any time stick out as being good for a visit? Maybe after that compost heated shower is up and running I've been following permies for years now and I'm in Montana right now, be great to see the latest projects! I'd be very happy to help with any stove, building, or appropriate tech projects.

Regards

Shay

Hi Shay and welcome to permies! Nice to see your first post as interested in being a gapper!

April might be slightly better than March both for weather and guidance, and more likely the showers will be running. Though other than that, things are still a bit up in the air in terms of projects or activities. We have a gapper who arrived last week, and another who arrives in a little over a week, so arriving now works, too.

Early June is considered the last frost date in this region, though that's moving earlier these days. Just mentioning for those interested in camping.

How many gappers are making car payments, if any? I have been gradually reducing my obligations to pursue the permaculture-dream, but selling my car is a tough decision. [Not upside down, but it seems smart to hold on to it.] Getting a townie-job seems obvious, but 1.5 hours a day driving is anti-permie. What is the range of monthly hard-working-gapper incomes? I hope that's not too rude to ask.

Thirteen podcasts and I'll be caught up and probably ready to pay the gapper fee.

As the guy that writes the checks to the gappers...

We have had a lot of gappers here that did a lot of hard work and never asked for a penny. My guess is that they are just as stupid and crazy as I am about seeing permaculture stuff move forward, and, at the same time, they have some means of being able to feed themselves while we are waiting for our food systems to become big enough to feed everybody.

And there have been some gappers here to whom I have written checks for more than $3,000 per month.

I also know that there have been some gappers that have internet jobs, and they need to spend several hours a day at base camp getting work done.

I think that there are some gappers that have set up some residual income streams so that they don't need to be as worried about income.

I am most impressed with Jesse Grimes: he has set up up a patreon account and is getting more than $100 for each video he puts up. It seems that the more videos he creates, the more money he gets per video. I think that if he where to put out two videos per week that in a few months he would probably bring in $3,000 per month. Damn smart. I further think that other people can do something similar and have a different style of video and also do this well.

Of course, Jesse is an ant and not a gapper. But I think A gapper could do just as well. Jocelyn mentioned to me 2 days ago about a gapper that is intending to return to take pictures and video for a month, and I expressed that I think she could put out a daily vlog about her visit and be able to bring in $3,000 via patreon during her time here.

I think there is something I need to add to this: I think there have been people who came out and thought they might earn $3,000 per month only to discover that they are still building skills. And some people have learned that they do not yet possess the same work ethic that other people possess, so while they are certain that they are working an 8 hour day, other observers see them getting out of bed at noon, starting work at 2 and stopping work at 4. A 2 hour work day is just not going to get as much done as an 8 hour workday.

Someday I hope we have very strong leadership for gappers so that the whole group will be encouraged to get out of bed early, and be pressed into a hard work ethic and get a lot done each day while learning amazing permaculture stuff. I am hoping that that strong leadership will arrive this year.

Some people will easily bring in $3,000 per month. Some people will struggle to bring in $200 per month. Some people have outside income, and some people have money saved up.

Someday, somebody will show up who will have zero money, zero income and will earn zero bounties and live purely off of the land. That will be an awesome thing to see.

Paul, your thorough response was extremely helpful and guiding. I'm taking the necessary steps to make this a reality; you're time was not wasted. In a couple weeks I'll send the $100 so we can chat and make arrangements; first, I want to set aside additional exit funds as mentioned in previous podcasts. I will help move permaculture forward and build a community garden. You're gapper podcast was the major kick in the butt. I'm the anti-Jerry/Emmett and won't need a ride from the airport. Sending permie-love!

Gapp-tastic!
Hey Permies, I'm Sara, a current gapper.
It's been an incredible learning experience and a great joy to be soaking up the Labs and Base camp.
The Ants and other gappers here have been super accommodating, welcoming, and sharing much knowledge and many stories.
Paul and Jocelyn are so generous and also full of great insights, which you all know already.
I would recommend this experience for anyone... there is something here for everyone to enjoy!
Thank you P & J - you rock!
Thanks to all the other creatures living up here!

Photos of Gapper-times:

more gapping photos

We are updating the gapper program today, so I am updating the first post a bit.

Probably the biggest news is that we are making a modification to the pricing of the gapper program.

The price is now $100 for the first person and $20 for each person after that. So the prices look like this:

- a couple: $120

- a family of five: $180

- a club of 25 people coming out for a tour: $580

- a club of 25 people coming out for a tour and overnight camping: $580

- a club of 25 people coming out for a tour, two nights of camping and building some permaculture experiences: $580

The price for one person is still $100.

A ride to/from the airport/bus is now $15 each way for "normal hours" and $35 each way for after 10pm and before 7am.

hey there.... what about my amazing best(dog)friend? farm, animal and people friendly!

Michelle leigh wrote:hey there.... what about my amazing best(dog)friend? farm, animal and people friendly!

At this time, dogs are fine.

While you are here, you might be interested in getting our dog park started. https://permies.com/t/57228/labs/dog-park

Hi Paul,

Just relocated from Colorado to Missoula, Montana and came across your establishment while searching for WWOOFing sites for next summer. Since the boyfriend and I are in Missoula and have committed to leases and fulltime jobs - I was wondering if, with your $120 fee, you would be willing to take us on a frequent and regular weekend basis? We would love to come camp and work our asses off learning at wheaton laboratories.

Thanks!
- Carrie

Carrie Bow wrote:Hi Paul,

Just relocated from Colorado to Missoula, Montana and came across your establishment while searching for WWOOFing sites for next summer. Since the boyfriend and I are in Missoula and have committed to leases and fulltime jobs - I was wondering if, with your $120 fee, you would be willing to take us on a frequent and regular weekend basis? We would love to come camp and work our asses off learning at wheaton laboratories.

Thanks!
- Carrie

Welcome to permies.com, Carrie! You bet - that's totally doable! Send your $120 via PayPal to paul AT richsoil DOT com and that'll get the ball rolling. Then, Paul will forward your e-mail (from your PayPal payment) to me and we'll exchange more details that way.

We had a potential gapper write:

....if I can help make a hugelkultur - from nothing to ready-to-plant.   I would time my visit to be included in such a build.

And I thought that was worth answering or explaining in the forums. The short answer is that we don't have anything like that scheduled at the moment, but the long answer is that there are options and possibilities.

look for workshops
If we have a workshop for building hugelkultur, which we don't have scheduled at the moment, that would be the best bet for timing your visit. (Search the wheaton labs forum for workshops to check.)

hugelkultur maintenance - ongoing
In general, we always have hugelkultur stuff to do here (see our giant hugelkultur thread which are here at base camp, and the ants have loads up on the lab, too), though this kind of thing is not exactly a build 'from nothing.'

inquire
Both Evan and Jesse have offered to host gappers in the past, we have more ants than just those guys though, and it might be worth inquiring if anyone at wheaton labs wants help to start a new hugelkultur. Currently, Paul and I are not interested in starting new hugel beds at base camp at this time/this year (2016), which really means we are not available for guidance or instruction this year. (We actually do have plans to have loads more at base camp...eventually.) Inquiring on the forums is best because you are likely not the only one with that question! If there's not already a thread that fits, start a new one!

offer to pay
Folks here are busy. Though I do know some of the ants can be persuaded to provide instruction for a reasonable hourly rate. Janet has created an awesome brainstorming list in the Choose your Adventure at wheaton labs thread where folks might discuss these kinds of things, like hugelkultur building and more.

So I do hope that helps a bit. Besides the upcoming Well Drilling Workshop, we want learning opportunities of all kinds at wheaton labs, though at the moment we are short on the staff it takes to coordinate and market them well enough to make it worth putting them on. (<cough!>PEP1 educator<cough!> )

Dear potential gapper,

I have two hugels on the brain for base camp. One has a slow start on one end and is ready for some creativity and dirt on the other end. I say dirt, because we will make it become soil once it is in the hugel. The other is nonexistent and really needed in my opinion. While I am not Paul-level-expert I have sustained myself for 5 months with 80% of my food coming from my half-acre hugel maze. It was mostly tomoatoes, zuchini, cucumbers and ground cherries, but I learned a bunch. Also, having experienced the full hugel-related media storm that Paul has put out I feel qualified to share what I've learned while working side-by-side with someone (or two) to complete these two beds.

Scheduling large workshops and events is tough for a few reasons, maybe we can try to keep it simple. Let's do this! A flexible workshop for 1 to 3 students, where for $20, I will coordinate with you a two-hour hugel-building learning adventure. You communicate your ideal dates, I'll choose the hours based on weather and my other lab resposibilities and we can get stuff growing! Message me at janet@richsoil.com and we can get the ball rolling!

Our friends at dirtpatcheaven (YouTube channel) made another video about wheaton labs - this time about the two wofatis, Cooper Cabin and Allerton Abbey. So I added their video about the shower shack and the wofatis video to this new playlist of wheaton labs videos.

wheaton labs YouTube playlist

Jesse's Ant Village Videos show even more about wheaton labs, though his are also focused primarily on his plot, and his travels, so are not just about wheaton labs.

Hey Jocelyn -

Are there structures to stay in on site? We have an extended weekend coming up for Thanksgiving and thought that might be a good time to get acquainted, take tours, etc. Just curious if you were able to take visitors for the holiday and if you had structures to stay in - in the event of WEATHER. Not a fan of camping in icier conditions, personally...

Thanks!!
- Carrie

Carrie, here is a thread about the structures to stay in.

https://permies.com/t/56796/Accommodations-Wheaton-Labs

Jocelyn will have to answer the rest.

We have the structures and the bunks.

We were just talking to fred about some things that need to get done and how it would be great to have some gappers to help!

A few more details and clarifications for Carrie and others.

Carrie mentioned maybe coming out more than one weekend since they live close by. The gapper fee(s) is just a one time thing - only required before your first trip out. (I think we wrote that already, but it's good to repeat. )

Another repeat:  besides the gapper program, Paul made a list of other ways to visit or stay in the visiting wheaton labs thread.

Gappers have the option of helping ant village OR with wheaton labs projects under Fred (and Paul).

wheaton labs - I think what Paul meant by talking to Fred about things that need doing is that if gappers are helping Fred with general wheaton labs projects, Paul and I will provide a bunk (for now, most likely at base camp).

ant village - if gappers help with ant village things, we would like ant village residents to either house the gappers (though many aren't yet ready to do this), or the gappers are on their own (camping).

Another repeat:  wheaton labs is TWO pieces of property, base camp and the lab. Base camp is on-grid, ROCKY, has wifi, and is where Paul and Jocelyn live in the Fisher Price House. The lab is down a paved, then gravel, then dirt (some times mud adventure!) road, is off-grid (with our solar trailers), no wifi / spotty cell reception, and is where ant village and deep roots acres are located.

Carrie Bow wrote:Hey Jocelyn -

Are there structures to stay in on site? We have an extended weekend coming up for Thanksgiving and thought that might be a good time to get acquainted, take tours, etc. Just curious if you were able to take visitors for the holiday and if you had structures to stay in - in the event of WEATHER. Not a fan of camping in icier conditions, personally...

Thanks!!
- Carrie

Ah! Thanksgiving weekend - there will likely be folks here; Paul and I usually are here at Thanksgiving. Last Thanksgiving a lot of our residents were out of town, though the year before, we had a good crowd around the table Thanksgiving Day. As a food pusher, it's a lovely holiday in my book.

Is the Gapper program still in motion? The ranch that I'm working at is slowing down for the winter and can fly on over at anytime 'til March, maybe longer. I'm thirsty to learn and get my hands dirty.

Garett Conner wrote:Is the Gapper program still in motion? The ranch that I'm working at is slowing down for the winter and can fly on over at anytime 'til March, maybe longer. I'm thirsty to learn and get my hands dirty.

Yes! We'd really love to have more gappers come through! Though please bear with me as I spell out some caveats about this year and this timing.

Gappers are mostly on their own for food and housing after they arrive, which usually means tent camping. Understandably, not everyone is up for winter camping in Montana. There might not be projects to help with through Paul or Fred this winter, which leaves gappers on their own a lot, or seeing if an ant might like their help. This past year, as an example, most of our gappers have camped in ant village and helped ants with their various projects.

For a bunk indoors, we now have the boots to roots program, though unfortunately that is currently full, with a waiting-list only status at this time.

I so wish we had more indoor bunks to offer apart from the boots to roots program, but there a boat load of reasons why that's not in the cards right now. So while the last thing I want to do is be discouraging, I definitely want to be realistic and up front about what to expect over the winter. I hope that helps!

Jocelyn (and Garett), I just want to clarify some bits and bobs:

The permaculture bootcamp officially starts Feb 4 and is currently full.   That does include food and a bunk.  All true.  AND there are a couple of loopholes.  

1 - if people come before feb 4, they can be part of the pre-bootcamp.  They get food and a bunk and on feb 4 we will make arrangements for them to work with the ants.  I think it is plausible that the ants would provide food and shelter for a hard worker.  

2 - people that are on the waiting list and are here will be given priority over people that are on the waiting list and are not here.  

3 - It is possible that, depending on .... stuff ...  we might allow more than 6 for the bootcamp program.   This decision is really up to fred and kai.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:

Garett Conner wrote:Is the Gapper program still in motion? The ranch that I'm working at is slowing down for the winter and can fly on over at anytime 'til March, maybe longer. I'm thirsty to learn and get my hands dirty.

Yes! We'd really love to have more gappers come through! Though please bear with me as I spell out some caveats about this year and this timing.

Gappers are mostly on their own for food and housing after they arrive, which usually means tent camping. Understandably, not everyone is up for winter camping in Montana. There might not be projects to help with through Paul or Fred this winter, which leaves gappers on their own a lot, or seeing if an ant might like their help. This past year, as an example, most of our gappers have camped in ant village and helped ants with their various projects.

For a bunk indoors, we now have the boots to roots program, though unfortunately that is currently full, with a waiting-list only status at this time.

I so wish we had more indoor bunks to offer apart from the boots to roots program, but there a boat load of reasons why that's not in the cards right now. So while the last thing I want to do is be discouraging, I definitely want to be realistic and up front about what to expect over the winter. I hope that helps!

Can I build some indoor bunks? I have plenty of money for food. What did people bring and do to handle camping outside in Montana?

We have indoor bunks.   We have:

a full size bed and a twin bed in the red cabin

a full size bed and a twin bed in the love shack

two full size beds and two twin beds in the bunkroom

there used to be four beds in allerton abbey, but it might be only three now.

there is a king sized bed and a queen in cooper cabin, plus people like to sleep on the bench.  

There is a bed big enough for two in the tipi.  

So, if a couple were in each full, queen and king, we have enough bunks for 23 people.   Nearly all of those are currently empty.  

We are trying to rent some of the bunks with the sepper program and the airbnb stuff.   But they usually sit empty.  I would really like to see somebody work hard to get these filled out.  

At the same time, there are lists and lists of projects to be done.   I am totally cool with somebody getting stuff done and staying in the bunks.   But we have learned that these folks need strong leadership.   Without strong leadership, about 90% of the people that occupy a bunk cause more wear on stuff than they mend.   They seem to feel they are working 40+ hours per week, but they seem to accomplish about 2 hours per week.  And, at the same time, cause enough wear that we have to pay somebody else to work six hours a week to mend stuff after them.  But with strong leadership (fred and kai in the bootcamp program!) I think that we actually get 40+ hours out of them and we might only need one hour per week to mend things after them.  

Let us suppose that you are the exception - part of the 10%.   And you come out and do stuff between now and feb 4 such that "wow, this guy is really good!  so industrious!  super trustworthy!" then I think stuff could be figured out to keep you in one of our regular bunks after feb 4.  No promises.  But maybe.  

So, there is that maybe .... and there is the possibility that one of the ants will take you in ... and there is a long list of other possibilities.     It depends.

Much appreciated Paul, keep up with the beast mode. These are all situations I can work with. As long as y'all don't have any pist off red mares that need handling I'll be as happy as 25 apples. I'll go ahead and pay the fee tonight, aiming to be there on December 2, depending on the flights. Also, I'm a trained/license pending massage therapist/structural bodyworker. Could I bring my table to help anyone in pain? No charge just smiles. Lastly, great podcast last night! It got me pumped to get there!

Garett Conner wrote:Much appreciated Paul, keep up with the beast mode. These are all situations I can work with. As long as y'all don't have any pist off red mares that need handling I'll be as happy as 25 apples. I'll go ahead and pay the fee tonight, aiming to be there on December 2, depending on the flights. Also, I'm a trained/license pending massage therapist/structural bodyworker. Could I bring my table to help anyone in pain? No charge just smiles. Lastly, great podcast last night! It got me pumped to get there!

Hi Garett, I'm glad Paul clarified about the bunks and that gappers who come and basically work as they would in the Boots-to-Roots program are welcome to a bunk. I live right here and have a hard time keeping up.

Oh, man, I would pay for massage! I know it would cost ya to check a massage table on a flight, but hopefully I could make it worth the fee!

I'm getting a car ride. I'll go ahead and bring the table! Your not allowed to pay. You already paid by cracking the whip on Paul to create more podcasts.