Permaculture and the Human Body/Individual Behavior

The "Bacon and Cholesterol" thread has caused me to think.  Since the principles of permaculture were designed to apply at any scale, I thought I would try to collect those (and speculate on others) that have been/can be derived from them.  Consistent with the principles (although controversial, in part or whole, to be sure!) would seem to be the following:

* A reduction of bodily "inputs" to a lower quantity (than typical of Westerner diets) but higher quality, more diverse, nutrient-dense omnivorous foods to enhance the sustainability of life well into old age.
* The integration of both native and exotic foods into the diet, albeit locally produced and from perennial plants/tree crops to the extent possible.
* Intangible multicultural inputs (music, ideas, sights, sounds, Internet use, conversation, etc.) which represent instrumental (a means to an end; i.e., educational) rather than intrinsic (an end in themselves) values.  (This is one I might be partially against.)
* Recycling of human wastes in compost toilets and the like.
* Exercise directly tied to productive use, such as digging, building, scythe-ing, walking up stairs instead of elevators, etc.  (No workouts at the local gym; which is merely an energy sink).
* Wearing of natural-fiber clothing that doesn't use petrochemicals.
* Practicing birth control.
* Only keeping pets that actually do something; e.g., watch dogs, etc. (As a hopeless dog lover, of any dogs, I do not like this one.)  Cats?  Forget about it.
* Home-schooling of kids (see instrumental inputs).
* Using food and herbs as medicine to the extent possible.

I disagree with the homeschooling idea. Many kinds of knowledge are delivered much more efficiently to crowds than one at a time, both from a man hour and sustainability standpoint.

What about what is communicated subliminally/covertly, in terms of values, peer-pressure, bad habits, etc.?

I agree with a large majority of your points, but will comment on a few where I think differently.

I don't see homeschooling as inherently good (or bad). I have seen both. Many homeschooling families want to protect their kids from diversity (ethnic, religious, political). If the parents are narrow-minded or disorganized, the kids suffer as a result.

Cats do things. On a farm, they catch mice. In the suburbs, they can provide companionship and a link to the natural world. The ecologic impact of cats needs to be considered, but they do have value IMO. Dogs provide security and prompt people to walk more.

Clothes made from petrochemicals - I love fleece. I like 60/40 shirts (and all-cotton clothing). I think silk is natural, but an indulgence. I would rather wear synthetic clothes that I can wash with water than natural clothes that need to be dry-cleaned.

Cats are necessary for us to keep animals out of stacks of wood - and keep the lizard population down to acceptable levels.

My dog is the best interviewer I know. If he doesn't want to play catch with some, there is something seriously wrong. I kid you not.

Also, if I have to address a problem with a worker - if the worker is getting resentful, he starts to growl. He is my truth detector. 

He also keeps my throwing arm in good condition, being totally addicted to chasing balls.

He is also a great garbage disposal for the entrails of animals and scrap meat. He loves papaya too, which is good for him.

Yup, forgot about cats and mice.  And I can certainly verify all the dog uses and more.  Good ones.

How about cats and birds? I think we have far too many species of bird and could do to loose some of them, or something like that, right? </sarcasm>

Emerson White wrote:
H0ow about cats and birds? I think we have far too many species of bird and could do to loose some of them, or something like that, right? </sarcasm>

Cats here in the tropics walk around scared... we have some BIG birds... Also there is boas, fer-de-lance, large cats (marguays, ocelots, jagarundis, pumas, jaguars), and many other things that like to eat cats.

Never noticed cats here trying to attack a bird - usually they are too busy hiding... I know it is a problem in the states though. There are no feral cats in the tropics - aside from the natural ones.

Fred Morgan wrote:
Cats here in the tropics walk around scared... we have some BIG birds... Also there is boas, fer-de-lance, large cats (marguays, ocelots, jagarundis, pumas, jaguars), and many other things that like to eat cats.

Never noticed cats here trying to attack a bird - usually they are too busy hiding... I know it is a problem in the states though. There are no feral cats in the tropics - aside from the natural ones.

You sir have a solid point about the tropics, one that does not extend at all to any part of the USA or Canada, where most of the people on this forum are located.

Emerson White wrote:
You sir have a solid point about the tropics, one that does not extend at all to any part of the USA or Canada, where most of the people on this forum are located.

Yep, my issues sure aren't yours either - but that is why make sure people know where I live.

Sure took me a while to figure out how to garden here too - imagine a place where there is no frost to kill off the bugs and the weeds...

But I agree, up North, you are probably better off with a dog that likes to hunt rats than an outdoor cat.

Interesting point about dogs and their ability to judge Fred. My dogs place themselves between my wife and anyone who they are uncomfortable with. They'll fall into a heel position if it's me.  One of my dogs can't stand anyone who is under the influence alcohol or those occasion when it appears to be some other intoxicant.
Living rural I have cats and they do kill mice, come the first of fall when they start looking for a warmer place to live like my garage.
The premise of birth control shouldn't be singled out species specific. Pet ownership requires responsibilities spaying and neutering are an important component of that responsibility.
I'm not sure where multicultural inputs have should have a bullet point. Other than permaculture practices and use of non local but viable plants in a permaculture setting/principle.  Fred and my situations, tropical versus high desert alpine, is a prime example. I don't require any interaction with cultural norms of his area yet can still practice permaculture. I don't have to watch foreign films to understand what won't grow here. Fred doesn't have to watch useless American television programs for him to to practice his tropical version.
That's not to say I'm not personally interested in other cultures but an intangible would have a hard time being quantified in empirical data of an experiments success.

If you are talking about human birth control, I would suggest that the world would be a better place if everyone on this forum had at least 6 kids.

this is a very interesting thread, esp the cat inforamtion of which I have two that are pretty good at catching a lot of their own food, and i don't have any mouse problems in the house.

I am providing a good part of my own food at this point, but with my dietary changes to more proteins and fats, unfortunately my nut trees are still to young to help much there and i'm going to have to decide if i'm going to be doing more hunting or buying from local meat producers as i don't have domestic animals and now need to be on a low carb diet.

i do have both native and exotics on my property producing, i have added more of the native food producing plants lately and have more on order, but do find that i still keep a few of the exotics for their nutrient content. Also i find that i am eating more and more permanent or self seeding crops than buying seeds, although i did put in a lot of annual fruits and vegetables in this year as i got a lot of free seeds. Am leaning more and more to learning what will self seed and become more permanent or semi permanent in our area. I totally love eating my "weed" as right now they are oneo f the mainstays of my daily meals..esp the lambsquarters which i dearly  love (ok I know people are supposed to hate spinach, but i love it and its taste-alikes)

i do wear mostly cotton clothes but some have a tad of spandex or polyester in them, hard to find clothes without around here on my income..zero.

i am a bad girl, i actually have my ome gym with weightlifting, bike, stepper, weight machine with free weights, total gym, and tapes and t v..but you see i live in Michigan and although i can shovel some snow, there isn't generallyenough to keep me in shape all winter..so yes i spend 8 to 9 hours working outside when the weather permits, but, i do use my in home gym when it is 20 below.

at 59 ino longer need to practice birth control and i have one 35 year old son with no children...have extensive food, herbal and mediccial garden and use it and don't have children that require homeschooling..

I think one of the points that need to be understood at all times is that climate, even microclimates have to be considered. You could live in a frost pocket, for example. And believe it or not, there are areas (very few) in Costa Rica that get frost - there is a pass called Cerro de Muerte (death hill) where people used to die of hypothermia when they crossed it.

And then you have us, who think it is cold when it gets down to 65F.

Also, regarding cats - in one place we had to control our cat so that it wouldn't hunt song birds. In another place - not more than 200 miles away, there was no problem. Same cat. In that place we had to make sure the raccoons wouldn't kill the cat.

Costa Rica has no less than 13 distinct micro-climates - and even though it is a small country, several distinctive zones, where people act very differently.

So, part of permaculture I would think is to adapt to where you live. 

Emerson White wrote:
You sir have a solid point about the tropics, one that does not extend at all to any part of the USA or Canada, where most of the people on this forum are located.

um, just saying, I live far enough out to live amoung plenty of cat predators--variety of large raptors, owls, and cougars. I've lost one cat to an owl and deflected a diving hawk off another. My house would be obscenely overrun by mice if I had no cats(been there done that). They keep the rabbits out of the garden. Four of my cats were a dumped litter that didn't have their eyes open yet, and my son took care of them and they survived(he wants to be a doctor:D)

SO just sayin, in a more natural environment(even in the USA) there are plenty of predators for cats.

Also the benefit of a balanced, full body workout with weights as well as sustained cardio shouldn't be dismissed. In farming there is a lot of repetitive motions, and people tend to use their "strong arm" more than the other, or carry that heavy sack of grain on their dominant side. Do this for 50 years and you eventually get way off balance and things are pulled sideways unnaturally. I've been able to correct posture problems and rehab weakness that had led to stuff like tennis elbow(gotten from whacking blackberries)--ie curing the tennis elbow and adding muscle.

It's not like it takes hours upon hours to do a good resistance program, and on a farm there is plenty of heavy stuff you can use instead of going to the gym(comeon, use a little creativity!). And who says a little extra strength wouldn't be handy around the farm???

My grandma was always a healthy person, active and capable. But she torched her back bending over picking potatoes for her first twenty years(as a strong young adult farm laborer!). A kidney belt, and using a few different positions to pick that would have kept her back straight, as well as strengthening her core muscles and hip flexors etc(sorry I could go on) would have saved her discs.

BTW at OSU the human energy going into the cardio machines goes into the campus power grid, so it's not an energy sink--just sayin, be creative.

Does that mean that all your cats were eaten? Fred mentioned the oscelot, its importance is not as a cat predator, but as a bird predator. All of the prey animals in Freds area have adapted to predation by what amounts to a big tomcat. If your area there is no such natural predator, the fact that you are in the boonies only makes the ecological damage more severe, not less severe, you are out in some of the last remaining habitat for those birds. Cats in north america eat hundreds of millions of birds every year, even with the stray dog or eagle that can go after a cat.

lhtown wrote:
If you are talking about human birth control, I would suggest that the world would be a better place if everyone on this forum had at least 6 kids.

  I'm with you there.

Emerson White wrote:
Does that mean that all your cats were eaten? Fred mentioned the oscelot, its importance is not as a cat predator, but as a bird predator. All of the prey animals in Freds area have adapted to predation by what amounts to a big tomcat. If your area there is no such natural predator, the fact that you are in the boonies only makes the ecological damage more severe, not less severe, you are out in some of the last remaining habitat for those birds. Cats in north america eat hundreds of millions of birds every year, even with the stray dog or eagle that can go after a cat.

I understand the issue of suburban cats eating birds. I'm just saying--where I live--cats have several natural predators, cougars, coyotes, owl, hawks(not to mention there are two native cat species, cougars and bobcats). It's a whole different ball of wax--better balanced. About 1/3 of my cats have been killed by predators--I would say in the local cat population at least half are killed by predators. Songbirds--they kill the occasional songbird, so do raptors, owls, mammals that rob the nests, snakes that eat eggs and baby birds--believe me they kill far more songbirds than my cats do. BUT the population of songbirds is quite lots more dense because of more bigger plentiful habitat for all. So, yes, in the big scheme of things, my cats are irrelevant, and some of them are feeding worms right now. Of course if I had a hundred cats, and my neighbors each had a hundred cats, then maybe we'd approach suburban density...

What birds do my cats prey on here in the woods?  the birds that forage low to the ground, juncos(1000's of those), robins(rarer up here in the mountains, but...robins). They don't climb 100 feet up into the firs to pillage the kinglets or tanagers(or the spotted owls ). Never killed a wild turkey tho. My windows have killed a few swainson's thrushes, and acorn woodpecker and a yellow warbler.

Personally I think the sterility of suburban/urban footprints and loss of habitat on each end of the migration, as well as loss of fuel stops along the way is a big part of the problem, instead of pinning it all on the cats. The blame is laid on cats--the easy solution! Kill all the cats!(wolves! cougars! weasels! raccoons!)--instead of understanding the whole picture.

When you create an environment with no predators to protect a select part of the population, things are screwed up. Same issue with the people who shoot cougars on sight because they kill. Well, duh()

Deep sea oil rigs have blowout preventers, but that only matters if they work, so were your cats eaten?  Cats eating birds is a problem everywhere. Cats hunt in a way totally dissimilar from snakes and raptors, the behaviors american birds use to avoid predation leave them open to cats, Cats target their weak spots, there refuges from the other predators, cats combine an ability to climb with a tremendous ambush potential. It's not just a problem in the suburb, the less man is in the surroundings the more damage stands to be done to them; hence rural cats are worse than suburban cats environmentally, which are in there turn worse than city cats.

My solution is more subtle than "Kill the cats!" but a big part of it involves not poisoning the few wells that they have left to stop in on their journeys (I.e. not subsidizing a ravenous and alien predator in their habitat) How about, keep your pets indoors where they belong?.

Your cats bear as much similarity to natural predators as agent orange does to a grazing heard. Cats are a whole different ball game than any north american predator, and trying to conflate my argument with wiping out predators is nothing but a straw man, which is a rude and childish way to score a point when you haven't got a leg to stand on.

    I suppose the matter is somewhat out of our hands. There are plenty of feral cats and, short of killing all of them, there is little we can do about their predations. The birds will have to do what animals have been doing for all time - adapt. Sadly, a great many may die in the process.

Pre-adolescents with BB guns now there is a bird killing machine.
Man is the predator that we should fear. I don't think that cats will wipe out any avian population but man has done a pretty good job on starting the demise of a few species.
If population control (birth control) is going to be a component of this thread than responsible breeding of domestic animals and the spaying and neutering of those animals would address the issue to a degree. Does mans domestication of cats and failing to be responsible in this manner a component of the problem?
One of my dogs is a rabbit eradicator and I am thankful that she is as efficient as she is since someone nearby turned loose all their pet rabbits. I went from live trapping 20 in one week to snaring and disposing to finally letting the dog have at em. She knows that the ones in the rabbit cages are off limits. Once there is a rabbit in the yard though it's fair game. Am I fearful that all of the rabbits will be killed? nope
Utah estimates up to 20,000 deer are killed by vehicles each year in their state. 200 driver deaths in the entire US
www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=608384
With those numbers should people quit driving cars to protect the deer?
Refute the dumping of unwanted fertile urban cats in rural settings as part of the problem.  Those of us that live in rural settings see this type of irresponsible behavior all too often.

Deer aren't in any danger, in fact there are more of them now than ever before, just one of the many benefits that comes from eradicating the species you depend on (wolves in this case, although to be fair a human can replace a wolf in the ecosystem quite effectively, a human has no chance of replacing a rusty blackbird).

Emerson White wrote:
Deep sea oil rigs have blowout preventers, but that only matters if they work, so were your cats eaten?  Cats eating birds is a problem everywhere. Cats hunt in a way totally dissimilar from snakes and raptors, the behaviors american birds use to avoid predation leave them open to cats, Cats target their weak spots, there refuges from the other predators, cats combine an ability to climb with a tremendous ambush potential. It's not just a problem in the suburb, the less man is in the surroundings the more damage stands to be done to them; hence rural cats are worse than suburban cats environmentally, which are in there turn worse than city cats.

My solution is more subtle than "Kill the cats!" but a big part of it involves not poisoning the few wells that they have left to stop in on their journeys (I.e. not subsidizing a ravenous and alien predator in their habitat) How about, keep your pets indoors where they belong?.

Your cats bear as much similarity to natural predators as agent orange does to a grazing heard. Cats are a whole different ball game than any north american predator, and trying to conflate my argument with wiping out predators is nothing but a straw man, which is a rude and childish way to score a point when you haven't got a leg to stand on.

The leg I'm standing on is ten years of observing the interaction of cats, me, the wild life, watching birds etc, around my home in a beyond rural area with a healthy(as defined my the soil and conservation district) area with healthy populations in a balanced mix. I've even observed spotted owls nesting in second growth, a marbled murrelet--where they "aren't supposed to be". Yes I've found cats eaten partways, and found one in the woods, not to mention neighbors have witnessed cats being carried off by cougars and coyotes(yes, these are usually the stupid or old slow cats). Found lots of things half eaten in the woods. I buried one of my cats, which I happened to just find after he'd been swiped and dropped by an owl(they grab them with their claws and puncture their lungs, then drop them and wait for them to die--I buried my cat cuz I felt sorry for him, and I bury my pets(sorry). Owls swipe light colored cats, sure enough the ones snatched were white and light orange.
My cats eat WAY more mice anyways, they prefer them(this is beginning to sound like NEver Cry Wolf...)

Anyways, my point is, I have found cats to be useful tools in the process of growing stuff and preserving food(along with a fence, a rake...). ANYTHING in excess is out of balance. There are NATIVE bobcats in our area, which do indeed hunt similar to a housecat. Of course cats hunt differently than raptors/snakes(that is the point of diversity). Bobcats will also take geese(wild turkeys, pheasants, chickens, quail, baby things, and of course song birds).

I was speaking to my (and my neighbors) experience of having cats in a backwoods place(in fact we are BEYOND rural). YES, predators eat them(which I'm sure is the way it used to be before suburbs). YES cats eating birds willy nilly is a problem where their numbers are out of balance(which USUALLY goes along with a whole lot of other stuff being out of balance).

Frankly I disagree with the wholesale statement of cats=bad and I reserve my right to say I disagree and explain why. I'm not some weird over the top cat lady with 30 cats--I do like my cats as pets, but if one gets snatched, oh well that's life. I kinda think my process of watching and observing how things are contributes to the OP statement--there simply were a couple of blanket statements I disagreed with. Very rarely is anything 100%--ie, the sky ain't always blue; I just balk at blanket statements on principle anyways .  AND I never realized how lifeless the suburbs were until I moved to the woods(on so many levels).

TO review
1. My cats who were killed by predators--one was eaten and one I stepped in and disrupted the cycle of life. The one I shooed the hawk away from was old and died from cancer--in hindsight the hawk would have been a better death.
2. I have found one half eaten cat in the woods and two cat skulls(and no other bones, ie the body was torn apart and scattered.) Adult cats, not kittens.
3. Neighbors have witnessed their cats being carried off by cougar/coyote as well as having cats scream in the bushes and disappear(I think owls actually take the most).
4. my cats are indeed voracious little RODENT eaters(ie, evidence left, seeing them catch things, etc). I find VERY few dead birds, and I have looked around for bird debri. I'm willing to bet my windows have killed more birds, or at least just as many. The only bird I've seen my cat actually eating was a dead chicken.
5. part of the real issue is FERAL cats, especially feral cats that have no predators
6. my cats are fixed.
7. my cats are fed indoors to not attract raccoons and bears onto my porch.
8. do bears eat cats?
9. There are still lotsa birds in the bush.
10. There are BOBCATS here which are similar to cats, so birds "know" about cats.
11. No I don't radio collar my cats and disect their poop.
12. I guess this thread drift shows the disconnect between theory and experience.
13. you'd think it would be kinda cool to hear about a place where housecats have natural predators and predators indeed control the population to a balance(unless of course one keeps the cat indoors 24/7).
14. yes I feed my cats.
15. Or maybe I'm dreaming all this(ok, THAT was childish whatever, I realize the cat/songbird thing is a touchy topic anyways)

(one last thing...personally I think part of the problem with "voracious" suburban cats is that they are bored. they kill to keep themselves from going neurotic)

Emerson White wrote:
to be fair a human can replace a wolf in the ecosystem quite effectively.

ugh (sit on hands! sit on hands!)

A human has no chance of replacing
a whale
a passenger pigeon
a buffalo
an eagle
a tuna
or any of the animals we are so efficient at harvesting or killing by accidental oil spills etc. etc.
No matter how you slice it man is a component of the need for a different way. Cats and rats are a component of mans interaction with his environment. 

You know, I was thinking today, ie the other threads about Fukuoka/Gaias Garden etc on forest gardening, I've read through the two mentioned and a few other books--anyways, Fukuoka's book was the one that really TAUGHT me something new/useful/mindblowing. The others tell you how to do it, give a list of plants and where to put them etc. But FU doesnt' really do that--but he teaches you how to OBSERVE and THINK. To get away from preconceived ideas received from somewhere else and to just sit down and LOOK at what is happening on the land around you. The land will tell you what you need to know.

I dont' mean any disrespect by this, but the OP's list had mostly stuff to DO, as in, just do it(and you should know the "good" reasons why). But not a lot about learning how to think better. A lot of this permaculture stuff is thinking in NEW ways, from a DIFFERENT perspective. It is so easy to think in the same old ways and just change the terms so it sounds new.

Like blanket statements, something "is always" something. No, they're not, lots of grey in the world. Most often the WE are the problem, we dont' understand--we just want the list of plants to plant with a diagram of where to put them.

A great way to avoid buying industrially produced outside inputs is to harvest ones already available.My cats kill songbirds and eat them and then poop them out in my landscape.Hurray!.....oh yea,I thought the original points were well thought out and generaly agree with them.

Personal experience is what you are going to now? I'm sorry I thought you said you had a leg, that's just a crude drawing of the leg stapled to the wall behind you. How much experience do you think the Europeans had with the Dodo? I'm pretty sure it was hundreds of years. How about the passenger pigeon? Again hundreds of years, and what happened there? How many years did farmers have with rabbits in Australia before one of them thought it couldn't hurt to let 27 grey ones go, how many millions of acres are stripped bare from that little adventure (rabbits being a plant predator)?

As far as the conversation goes, there are two groups of cats. Those that kill birds (like yours) and those that are contained indoors or in ground, and no matter how many get moved to the second group it's the first group that matters to this conversation. As far as I'm concerned any growth in the second group is germane to the issue of the damage the first group does.

wyldthang wrote:
You know, I was thinking today, ie the other threads about Fukuoka/Gaias Garden etc on forest gardening, I've read through the two mentioned and a few other books--anyways, Fukuoka's book was the one that really TAUGHT me something new/useful/mindblowing. The others tell you how to do it, give a list of plants and where to put them etc. But FU doesnt' really do that--but he teaches you how to OBSERVE and THINK. To get away from preconceived ideas received from somewhere else and to just sit down and LOOK at what is happening on the land around you. The land will tell you what you need to know.

I dont' mean any disrespect by this, but the OP's list had mostly stuff to DO, as in, just do it(and you should know the "good" reasons why). But not a lot about learning how to think better. A lot of this permaculture stuff is thinking in NEW ways, from a DIFFERENT perspective. It is so easy to think in the same old ways and just change the terms so it sounds new.

Like blanket statements, something "is always" something. No, they're not, lots of grey in the world. Most often the WE are the problem, we dont' understand--we just want the list of plants to plant with a diagram of where to put them.

Here we go again with the nonsensical Romantic notion that we're somehow tainted by education.  First, without a conceptual framework, how do you know what it is you're observing?  Better to know and understand and make explicit the framework you're using than to proceed blindly with some unknown "innate" -- what? -- God-given framework(?) to interpret your observations.  But either way you're using a framework.  Fukuoka was a trained biologist and researcher who worked in a lab for many years before venturing out.  He knew the rules before challenging them.  Sepp Holzer also had formal education in agriculture.  It's refining knowledge, not ditching it, whatever the rhetoric.

Second, the whole purpose of this thread was precisely to take the principles and see what real world effects could be derived from them for the individual alone, as a kind of an interesting, and for me at least, fruitful creative exercise.  Pc certainly does inspire new ways of thinking, which is what it did for me by trying to apply it to an individual scale.  If that's not somehow free enough for you, great.  Why not start your own thread and then we'll all be able to benefit from all of your free and unencumbered thinking.

Emerson White wrote:
As far as the conversation goes, there are two groups of cats. Those that kill birds (like yours) and those that are contained indoors or in ground, and no matter how many get moved to the second group it's the first group that matters to this conversation. As far as I'm concerned any growth in the second group is germane to the issue of the damage the first group does.

I'm sure that more damage is done to the environment by producing commercial catfood than the cats' behavior themselves.  The same would be true of dogs.  And untrained dogs can kill chickens.  Not something you want on the homestead.

There was a report a while back talking about how having pets (I think it was mainly referring to dogs) really increases your environmental footprint.  Considering that we're in population overshoot, land productivity will have to be heavily weighted towards direct human consumption.  Herbivores that can contribute to soil fertility by processing waste such as rabbits and goats would be a preferred pet.  Lots of hard choices await us.

bruc33ef wrote:
Here we go again with the nonsensical Romantic notion that we're somehow tainted by education.  First, without a conceptual framework, how do you know what it is you're observing?  Better to know and understand and make explicit the framework you're using than to proceed blindly with some unknown "innate" -- what? -- God-given framework(?) to interpret your observations.  But either way you're using a framework.  Fukuoka was a trained biologist and researcher who worked in a lab for many years before venturing out.  He knew the rules before challenging them.  Sepp Holzer also had formal education in agriculture.  It's refining knowledge, not ditching it, whatever the rhetoric.

Second, the whole purpose of this thread was precisely to take the principles and see what real world effects could be derived from them for the individual alone, as a kind of an interesting, and for me at least, fruitful creative exercise.  Pc certainly does inspire new ways of thinking, which is what it did for me by trying to apply it to an individual scale.  If that's not somehow free enough for you, great.  Why not start your own thread and then we'll all be able to benefit from all of your free and unencumbered thinking.

Never said "education" was bad. Just saying if anything it doesn't go far enough. What's the problem with modern education? It is not producing a THINKING product. Plenty of trained parrots. I had a teacher in high school that would pound on my desk and yell THINK at me (and I thank "the universe" for that experience). And yeah, I literally came up with the idea of forest gardening on my own by observing the woods, and THEN found out it's actually a discipline(so yeah, poop happens:D).

Like I said before "I mean no direspect".

Emerson White wrote:
Personal experience is what you are going to now? I'm sorry I thought you said you had a leg, that's just a crude drawing of the leg stapled to the wall behind you. How much experience do you think the Europeans had with the Dodo? I'm pretty sure it was hundreds of years. How about the passenger pigeon? Again hundreds of years, and what happened there? How many years did farmers have with rabbits in Australia before one of them thought it couldn't hurt to let 27 grey ones go, how many millions of acres are stripped bare from that little adventure (rabbits being a plant predator)?

As far as the conversation goes, there are two groups of cats. Those that kill birds (like yours) and those that are contained indoors or in ground, and no matter how many get moved to the second group it's the first group that matters to this conversation. As far as I'm concerned any growth in the second group is germane to the issue of the damage the first group does.

pidgeon is delicious(yup...from personal experience, I swear to the universe)

One more cat in the woods observation. There was indeed a cat lady living down the road who had at least 30 cats, not fixed, and she didn't have enough food to feed them. She moved away a few years ago and there are two left(two SURVIVORS). Both tabby cats(the throwback natural brown striping, they have white and one has 6 toes and one has a bobbed tail so they are recognizable as individuals). The population was obviously thinned by predators, and parasites. People dump cats all the time up here too, like I said, the light colored ones are the first to go(easiest for owls to see). Yet again, I'm trying to make the point I am commenting on domesticated cats living in a forest environment with things that obviously like the taste of cat--they are living(and obviously not THRIVING) in a non-artificial environment. I am in the process of observing a species(amoung others)in situ, noting what happens, and reporting it(um, like a...scientist!)

(this is just getting absurd:D)

wyldthang wrote:
What's the problem with modern education? It is not producing a THINKING product. Plenty of trained parrots.

If you think something's missing in education, you can certainly supplement it as a parent.  It's not really an all or nothing proposition.  Think of all the kids who go to Sunday school for religious purposes.  The same could be true of a permaculturalist.  Eco-school on the weekends, so to speak.

I think pulling kids out of the school system as some sort of ideological protest could be highly damaging to kids in a lot of ways.

Kids go through their own process of conformity and individuation anyway.  They are not necessarily as shallow and malleable as you think.

It seems apparent cats and rats have been brought to the rural areas by city people.
Time to prevent any interaction of city people with rural. I'm putting up the first gate.
I see it as the only way.
I have a college degree but I see oft times when an education inhibits natural and open observations that culminate in a different correct conclusion.
Let's put a fork in this thread and call it dead.

I would question whether there is any such thing as "natural and open observations."  For observations to even be comprehended, you have to interpret them in terms of some framework, implicit or explicit.  You may think your observations are "natural and open," but that's just a delusion that results in stumbling around blindly in the dark.  You're not going to live long enough to learn just by doing.

Oh Bruce, we all are subject to our own delusions aren't we. I'm afraid that all survival is a  result of learning by doing.
My hypothesis for this thread is Darwinism will weed out those that read and those that do.
Would I rather be in the woods of the western cascades with Mt Goat who has both practical and learned knowledge or someone with a just an edible plant book....................................................yep Mt Goat
 

bruc33ef wrote:
I would question whether there is any such thing as "natural and open observations."  For observations to even be comprehended, you have to interpret them in terms of some framework, implicit or explicit.  You may think your observations are "natural and open," but that's just a delusion that results in stumbling around blindly in the dark.  You're not going to live long enough to learn just by doing.

it's called walking a mile in someone else's moccasins.  It's deceptively hard to learn to be objective, to run a study without an agenda("show us the wolves are eating the cariboo!")

Ray n Mtn Goat sound like fun. I say we put a fork in some pidgeon.

Emerson White wrote:
Does that mean that all your cats were eaten? Fred mentioned the oscelot, its importance is not as a cat predator, but as a bird predator. All of the prey animals in Freds area have adapted to predation by what amounts to a big tomcat. If your area there is no such natural predator, the fact that you are in the boonies only makes the ecological damage more severe, not less severe, you are out in some of the last remaining habitat for those birds. Cats in north america eat hundreds of millions of birds every year, even with the stray dog or eagle that can go after a cat.

This is a very good point. To my knowledge, the primary food of an ocelot is not birds - probably lizards and small mammals. Few things are more damaging to an environment than a new predator.

But the opposite is true - in an environment that does have wild cats, and domesticated tabby, becomes cat food if it tries to hunt too far from human habitation. I have noticed in the north it was not uncommon to see a cat go into a forested area - here, ain't going to happen in my experience. If a larger predator doesn't get them, a snake like a boa surely will. They stay really close to home.

SO, back to the OP list of do-be-do, here's some stuff I got out of books to lob back atcha for consideration...

Practically speaking, a life that is vowed to simplicity, appropriate boldness, good humor, gratitude, unstinting work and play, and lots of walking brings us close to the actually existing world and its wholeness.
--Gary Snyder

"How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your Tee Vee; kill your own beef; build your own cabin and piss off the front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it."
— Edward Abbey

mos6507 wrote:
If you think something's missing in education, you can certainly supplement it as a parent.  It's not really an all or nothing proposition.  Think of all the kids who go to Sunday school for religious purposes.  The same could be true of a permaculturalist.  Eco-school on the weekends, so to speak.

I think pulling kids out of the school system as some sort of ideological protest could be highly damaging to kids in a lot of ways.

Kids go through their own process of conformity and individuation anyway.  They are not necessarily as shallow and malleable as you think.

I have done my subversive best, as a parent and a volunteer in my kids public schools, to hound dog kids' original creative thoughts, bring it out into the open and allow them to run with it. Yes, they LOVE that get out of jail free card.

On the other end, my family business employs public school graduates. I can tell you about the one I had to show how to turn on a vacuum...