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Dale Hodgins
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I see the word "honestly" being used to begin many post on the forum. Posters tend to disagree with some or all of what has come before. I don't recall it being used in a positive way.

 It seems to be a backhanded way of saying "I think everything you've said is stupid or everybody here but me is stupid or naive or misinformed ..."

 To me, when someone has to tell you that they are being honest, there's a good chance that they are being dishonest.

 It seems like such an innocent word but I don't see it being used in an innocent way. I see it as a lazy way to express frustration and as a sneaky way to dodge the niceness policy.

Pay special attention to the posts that use this word. It is a nice sounding word (or weapon) that is used for not nice reasons.
............
When "honestly" doesn't fit, some will go with "really". "Really, Mike." --- They really mean that Mike was dropped on his head as a baby and is now far too stupid to reside amongst us.
 
Michael Cox
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Dale Hodgins wrote:
When "honestly" doesn't fit, some will go with "really". "Really, Mike." --- They really mean that Mike was dropped on his head as a baby and is now far too stupid to reside amongst us.


Hey, I resemble that!

But honestly, people shouldn't get so uptight about things. Really, if you just did everything I suggest the world would be a better place.

Mike
 
Dale Hodgins
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Really, Mike. Is that all you've got to say? Honestly. I don't know.
...................
See how it works. Both of these words can be used to diminish the value of what Mike has said. Those who have had practice, can infer all sorts of negative things about another, without really saying much at all.
.................
For really lazy thinkers, these two words are cornerstones of the vocabulary.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
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Dale...don't ever let me use either of them...PLEASE!!...

I am sure I haven't the "honestly," (or at least not that I am aware of) but I might have dropped the "really" a few times with a few poor souls (bad form on my part from frustration.)

Either way...I agree...and you are most correct...This was a good morning reminder in editing myself...

Thank you,

j
 
Craig Dobbson
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For some reason this reminded me of instances when people say " To tell you the truth...". It's usually followed by a poorly constructed lie/story.

We have lots of weird ways of softening the blow or buying time in a conversation.

It's funny how we use language to buffer our intentions. In text form, I'm sure we construe all sorts of extra baggage to the words on the screen/page. I read your words in an inner voice that I've attributed to you Dale. Having been here for a few years and seeing all of your content I feel like I have a somewhat accurate sense of how you mean things. Others may have a totally different "Dale voice" in their heads as they read your stuff.
It's a strange thing we do. Create a narrative that fills in the gaps of understanding. In text, there's no inflection to be heard in a person's voice. You can't tell exactly what I mean when I write it out. just have to make some assumptions in order to get through it.

I've often felt that this is one of the biggest pitfalls in any community building, especially online in forums. It's hard to KNOW what somebody means exactly, unless they spell it out quite carefully and then there's still so much room for error. I wonder how many people get left out because they have an odd way of saying things in text format. I really like the idea of using technology to have better conversations. There's nothing quite like a face-to-face conversation though.
 
Michael Cox
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Did no one notice the "should(n't)" I managed to slip in there as well?
 
Dale Hodgins
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The "Dale voice" that I'd like you to hear, would be that of James Earl Jones or the narrator from The Waltons. If I'm addressing something particularly stupid, the voice and gestures of Christopher Hitchens is fun.
 
Dan Boone
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Honestly, I disagree. <<-- Literal usage.

When I use it, it means something like "I've given this an extra bit of thought and my considered opinion is..." When used in the context of disagreement, it's intended to soften the edge of my disagreement and make it less blunt and unpleasant. The notion is, I didn't just jump in and contradict you, I gave it some thought and this is the benefit of my reasoning process.

Here's the search link to the 13 prior times I've used the word on Permies. I don't *think* any of them have the negative connotations that Dale is complaining about, but perhaps it looks different to other readers?

Honestly...
 
Michael Cox
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Dan,

I've just searched for my own uses of the word... seems to come up as things like "I honestly don't know..."
 
Craig Dobbson
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Dale Hodgins wrote:The "Dale voice" that I'd like you to hear, would be that of James Earl Jones or the narrator from The Waltons. If I'm addressing something particularly stupid, the voice and gestures of Christopher Hitchens is fun.


I like animated personalities like Hitchens too. He had such a nice way of politely making an adversary look and feel soooooooooo small. It was a feat to behold. I like George Carlin and Lewis Black for the same reason. They are/were animated and passionate but also very knowledgeable and poignant. Kinda like you Dale. And I honestly appreciate that about you. Sincerely

 
Mike Feddersen
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I don' know about "honestly" or "really" but I think you guys are "awesome"! I think those politicians are "awesome" too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5PInhXkfvs
 
Judith Browning
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Dan Boone wrote:Honestly, I disagree. <<-- Literal usage.

When I use it, it means something like "I've given this an extra bit of thought and my considered opinion is..." When used in the context of disagreement, it's intended to soften the edge of my disagreement and make it less blunt and unpleasant. The notion is, I didn't just jump in and contradict you, I gave it some thought and this is the benefit of my reasoning process.

Here's the search link to the 13 prior times I've used the word on Permies. I don't *think* any of them have the negative connotations that Dale is complaining about, but perhaps it looks different to other readers?

Honestly...


Dan, I don't see your use of the word 'honestly' in the same light as Dale's examples. That, I think, is the problem with absolutes......As I get older, I have more and more of a problem seeing things clearly one way or the other. I come across as being uncertain, or wishy washy, I suppose....I see words as having many meanings and uses and almost any word contains the possibility of negativity.
There are topics here on many words.......'should', 'but', 'fuck', 'judgement' both encouraging and discouraging their use...........all are useful words and are only sometimes, I think, used in negativity or sarcasm or sneaky criticism of someone or something.
...and just to see if I could, here's a sentence using them all I honestly don't think we should make a judgement call on any one word no matter how fucked it's usage at times, but I see your point, Dale

The word I am finally reconciling with is 'fail' in all of its forms. In my mind it meant something devastating....inability to accomplish some life's work......where my husband uses it casually....like he 'failed' to eat breakfast or something. I think many of us have an ingrained sense of what some words mean and many misunderstandings result from that.


 
Devin Lavign
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Some of what you see of "softening" the blow of disagreement or subtly insinuating that someone else is not as intelligent as you through the use of these words can be cultural.

Let me give you an example.

I grew up in the Pac NW, but also have lived all over the country including Philadelphia and NJ. People on the East coast can seem pretty abrasive and aggressive at times. But they are also fairly honest about how they feel about someone. However out in the Pac NW. I was "friends" with someone lived with him as a roommate several times before finding out, he had never liked me. Actually disliked me the entire time. But was just too "polite" to say so. This after helping him through his holiday depression at Thanksgiving and not having family to celebrate with, and so many other things friends do for each other. If we had been on the East coast however, I would likely have found out he didn't like me within the first couple weeks. There are plenty of acquaintances on the East Coast who don't like eachother and vocally let eachother know but still associate due to mutual friends.

My point, different people communicate differently. Some folks have a hard time being direct, others are too direct. The online communication makes things harder, and people get comfortable with being "safe" behind a computer and act ways they wouldn't face to face. Not to mention text is often taken in ways not intended. Was the comment supposed to be sarcastic or humorous? Or was it serious? Often hard to tell, and even if it was in jest, was there still some subtle jab hidden in that humor?

Communication is a difficult thing to get right when dealing with a wide spectrum of people of different ages, from different parts of the world, and different cultures. The meaning of things and how comments will be taken will not always be the same.

Something I feel important. If you feel a comment has been made to you in some sort of subtle negative, ask for clarification before you assume the meaning. You might be surprised how often you find your assumption was not correct.
 
Dale Hodgins
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Craig Dobbelyu wrote:
Dale Hodgins wrote:The "Dale voice" that I'd like you to hear, would be that of James Earl Jones or the narrator from The Waltons. If I'm addressing something particularly stupid, the voice and gestures of Christopher Hitchens is fun.


I like animated personalities like Hitchens too. He had such a nice way of politely making an adversary look and feel soooooooooo small. It was a feat to behold. I like George Carlin and Lewis Black for the same reason. They are/were animated and passionate but also very knowledgeable and poignant. Kinda like you Dale. And I honestly appreciate that about you. Sincerely



Thank you Craig. I don't hold back the way that Hitchens did. 😈 I do hold back quite a bit on this forum, since we must not say that anyone is less than perfect. A few times, I've set it up so that the less than perfect poster clearly reveals that fact. This is a punishable offense. It's happened even when I honestly thought that civility was possible. I could have a friendly discussion with someone who wants to kill every polar bear or with the commander of a Gulag. I love debate, particularly if I'm the Devil's advocate. For some reason, debate is frowned upon, everywhere except the Cider Press. Even there, certain opinions are not allowed. Cest la vie.
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Here's one that has been allowed, although it gets into "less than perfect" territory. "Dale, I'm disappointed. I've come to expect better from you. "
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I wonder if there are other innocent looking words or phrases being used to bypass the niceness policy.
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It's funny that I'm the one bringing this up. I don't have a personal niceness policy. I deal in honesty, according to Dale. Others might call it too truthy. This serves me well personally and in business. Fifteen years ago, a competitor stole from me. I've told hundreds of people about it. It's true and I judge them to be less than perfect. This sort of honesty would not work on a forum like this. Things would probably devolve to the point where discussion would stop and YouTube type comments would dominate.
 
Mike Feddersen
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Devin, on being too polite to say so: my wife's parents divorced when she was 5. The kids were raised by the mother who remarried.
When my wife was 36 she got the chance to meet her biological dad. Nice enough guy but he had a bad habit of talking about what a great dad he was and some other stuff. I told her I would be glad to talk to him about it. "No, this is the way it has always been..." Lying is better? Funny stuff.
 
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