Win a copy of The Tourist Trail this week in the Writing forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Joseph Lofthouse
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Mike Jay
garden masters:
  • Steve Thorn
  • Dave Burton
  • Joylynn Hardesty
gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Greg Martin

what are the specs for the refractory cement, fire brick and mortar for a bullet proof rmh design

 
Posts: 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi,

I have been on alibaba trying to line up some refractory cement, fire brick and mortar for the bricks.  Does anyone have a spec, or knowledge of the specifications for these products to meet the max temperature to be expected in this type of application?

Is this the right approach?  Is US product cost competitive?  Where is the best place to look for these products?

Has anyone tried to import these products from china?  Are there any constraints on doing this, such as requirements for UL or CSA?

Mark
 
gardener
Posts: 2444
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
166
forest garden trees urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have just recently found a local distributor of refractory product.
I am looking for suggestions for off the shelf solutions.
For example,the distributors website doesn't list riser sleeves,but they probably have them and they are considered possibly the best possible heat riser.
I would google "refractory suppliers" and include your city and/or state in the query.
Shipping costs can multiply the costs of many products.
 
gardener
Posts: 3047
Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft high Southern alpine climate.
134
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Firebricks shipping would kill you!

Best approach, secondhand bricks sourced locally.  Second best new ones.

The art of scavenging is your best tool!
 
gardener
Posts: 2213
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
275
cat pig rocket stoves
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mark ; What is your location ? Anywhere near Spokane Washington ? White Block ,in Spokane valley has Fire clay at $10.00 a 50# bag, firebricks are near $2.50 each splits are cheaper. With refractory you will want around 2500 F . There is straight refractory and there is insulating refractory. Paying for shipping would be expensive especially from china . Check around, as max said, used firebrick are everywhere. Look for a sawmill with a dry kiln they may have bricks laying around. Refinery's and pulp mills also use large amounts  of firebrick.
 
Posts: 54
Location: Yakima, WA
7
forest garden trees books chicken food preservation woodworking greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

thomas rubino wrote:Mark ; What is your location ? Anywhere near Spokane Washington ? White Block ,in Spokane valley has Fire clay at $10.00 a 50# bag, firebricks are near $2.50 each splits are cheaper. With refractory you will want around 2500 F . There is straight refractory and there is insulating refractory. Paying for shipping would be expensive especially from china . Check around, as max said, used firebrick are everywhere. Look for a sawmill with a dry kiln they may have bricks laying around. Refinery's and pulp mills also use large amounts  of firebrick.



Not to derail the thread, but you just saved me a lot of time searching for suppliers! Im only a couple hours east of spokane. Thanks man!
 
Posts: 227
Location: US, East Tennessee, north of Knoxville
14
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Some related and possibly helpful info. is in this thread:

https://permies.com/t/60434/local-source-refractory
 
mark tompkins
Posts: 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
thomas rubino,

I am from southern alberta, originally from Lethbridge, but now located 30 minutes approx south of Brooks.  Canadian pricing for this kind of stuff is crazy expensive.   The suggestion for a supplier close to Spokane is great info, thanks very much.  I travel to the coast every year, to visit my daughter, and it won't be far out of my way.  I prefer the route through the US, because it feels more free.  This year, I may take the south route through Great Falls, and maybe even swing by Wheaton Labs.

Mark
 
mark tompkins
Posts: 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've been also looking at ceramic microspheres as a possible additive to refractory to enhance the performance of those areas which are exposed to high temperatures.  The batch box rocket stove is supposed to have an insulated firebox, I believe.  It would be interesting to investigate the impact of ceramic microspheres as a cement additive painted on layer to the fire exposed surfaces.  Eagle coatings is a Canadian company using the microspheres to solve heating and cooling problems.  There are others.  For example, the Denver airport allegedly had a 30 % odd energy bill reduction resulting from the application of paint containing insulating ceramic microspheres.  This technology seems to be largely flying under the radar at the moment.  One problem is that it requires a different analysis in order to understand how the technology works.  R value doesn't appear to be relevant to the analysis of this technology.  

Has anyone tried to use the ceramic microspheres in their favorite heating appliance?

 
gardener
Posts: 2965
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
128
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Any painted on layer inside the firebox or feed tube & burn tunnel will be subject to constant abrasion, and unless it is both strong and tough, and well-adhered to the refractory substrate, it will be scraped off quickly.
 
thomas rubino
gardener
Posts: 2213
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
275
cat pig rocket stoves
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mark;  Water glass or sodium silicate painted on creates a high temp hard face .  I used it when I was casting cores out of fireclay and perlite. It is readily available and low cost. Works very well.
 
mark tompkins
Posts: 9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I was thinking to mix ceramic microspheres into refractory, and then creating an initial layer in the firebox mold.  The ceramic microspheres appear to be quite hard.  Here is a link to a 3M product:

https://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Energy-Advanced/Materials/Product/~?N=5002440+7570093

I mean this is really fascinating stuff!!!

http://www.supertherm.net/multicera.htm

thanks for all the ideas and comments!!!  
 
We noticed he had no friends. So we gave him this tiny ad:
Switching from electric heat to a rocket mass heater reduces your carbon footprint as much as parking 7 cars
http://woodheat.net
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!