calling potential plant breeders!!!

EDITED---  go down to the post made at 8:40    for the current part of the thread.  


 Id like to do something for you. IF you have the time to read it.... If your to busy then nevermind.

      Id like to buy you a book. Breeding your own vegetable varieties by carol deppe. breeding imo is the missing link in perma culture. your work and site has touched many folks, and if all of them reaized how critical of a role this plays in what we are doing wed all be doing it.

      this book gets real technical in some parts, you can actually ignore those and still do well!!! well for many projects anyway.

      In addition to breeding it gives a fuller understanding of the importance of saving seeds in the right ways, which can have profound effects by itself.

       so if you would actually be able to find the time to read the non technical parts of the book, and would be willing to do so, I will buy it for you and send it to you. I fully feel if you do, youll see its potential to alter the course of permaculture as its currently used. its the missing link imo. I honestly think you will agree if you read the book..... 

         I do understand your a busy guy, so Im not trying to put you on the spot here....

hmm I guess I should add that id prefer if your interested that you read the book on your own timeline. a few months or whatever, and send it on to another person, who will send it to another.... that or send it to me , so I could find another person who I feel would value it, and also inspire others to see its potential.....

  Again this wasnt to call out paul or anything. though I did do it in the forum to continue to add weight to my conviction this is the missing link of perma culture design.

  I understand paul is a busy guy. Likely not enough time for this..... that said, if paul is interested but to busy, HE (please dont PM asking for a free book) can select someone he trusts would read it, understand it, and give it honest full inspection.... preferably someone also on the board.

I have that book, and also her latest one 'The Resilient Gardener'.  And I would agree that the understanding she gives of plant breeding was a total eye-opener for me. 

I'm too housebound at the moment to even consider plant breeding experiments, but when I'm free again I fully intend to put her advice to work and set about breeding varieties that perform well in my soil and climate, with minimal inputs from me. 

I'd love to have a thread devoted to discussing her plant breeding book! I'm going to see if I can dig it out...

A)  I have several books and DVDs here right now that I am just itching to consume, but I am desperately trying to get caught up on several things first.  I think tomorrow night I am watching the new bee movie narrated by ellen page.  And Ben Law is sitting on my desk staring at me - both DVD and book.  I have email that I just received offering a DVD of "food matters".  I still haven't finished Sepp's new book, which was sent to me by the publisher.  Somebody gave me "The Resiliant gardener" in december.  I still haven't opened it.

I have about six books that were sent to me that I never opened.  And they have now been here more than a few months.  And several sound very interesting.

The answer is:  I am happy to receive books/DVDs and I cannot make any promises, but I will try to consume them.  

Send stuff to:

paul wheaton
2120 s reserve #351
missoula, mt 59801

B) One of the most important things to me is to put out a new video every other day.  My last video was put up seven days ago.  So I am especially swamped right now.

C)  The mighty .... the glorious .... the amazing .... Sepp Holzer is coming to Montana.  You heard it here first.

 

    Well Paul, thats great news on sepp. Far from me, but good to hear none the less. Ive only heard of him when I showed up here. amazing stuff. Im learning a lot more from him then i do most....

    i understand what being busy is like, I figured you may be busy. that said, Id like to only do this if youll actually read it. i do think its a or the mising link to perma culture design, even breeding in passive ays which doesnt have to be harder then including more varieties, and paying attention to which plants you save seed from. slowly working them into a site better then selection from single varieties alone can do....

    so i dunno.... perhaps you know someone here who would have time to read it now, and is trusted here, that I could send it to? If not, thats cool... I have a coupon on a site i can order books and this popped into my mind this morning.....

It would be absolutely amazing to see what sepp could do if he was fully immersed into breeding for his systems....

Sepp is a breeder.

I think I have to let it go.  I cannot commit to anything at this point.

paul wheaton wrote:
Sepp is a breeder.

I think I have to let it go.  I cannot commit to anything at this point.

oh thats great, guess i havent gotten deep enough into his stuff yet....

Food Matters changed what I eat period.

  i kinda figured Paul would be to busy.

  So.... anyone interested in reading this book that cant afford it? I am still considering doing this. If the person is WELL established and respected on this forum. Someone who has been here a good amount of time. Hopefully a few folks, with each agreeing to pay shipping to the next person on the list???

  Id love to see permaculturalists as a whole take atleast passive breeding into the fold. the more who do it, well they each touch someone else. If anything Ive personally encountered can convince someone its this book.....

  So Im just gauging possible interest here. It would of been more desirable to me and more worht the money if paul had the time, but Im still thinking about it....

  so if anyones interested, please post to the thread, and we can go from there.....

Good choice of book to lend.  I have it here and read it over Christmas.  Definitely worth the read.

I've been saving seeds for a while and choosing from the best of each generation.... more like a mass selection rather than directed breeding. 

There is one dilemma with directed breeding and that is the inbreeding eventually needed to stabilise the variety.  Mass selection techniques may produce less change but is likely to produce a wider genetic base which should mean a more resilient variety.

Just some thoughts.......

Salkeela wrote:
Good choice of book to lend.  I have it here and read it over Christmas.  Definitely worth the read.

I've been saving seeds for a while and choosing from the best of each generation.... more like a mass selection rather than directed breeding. 

There is one dilemma with directed breeding and that is the inbreeding eventually needed to stabilise the variety.  Mass selection techniques may produce less change but is likely to produce a wider genetic base which should mean a more resilient variety.

Just some thoughts.......

it depends. Are you do mass selection from within a single variety? Or did you let a bunch of things cross together? and select a few dominate traits? If your saving seed from a single variety you cannot save 100 percent of the present genetics. it just doesnt work that way. You saving seeds from the best plants is good of course, but your doing the same thing as those who inbreed, given a MUCH longer time scale. It wont matter in your life time. Some things have a wide enough base its likely to never matter. (or so we think)

there are many ways to breed. Directed breeding can give us entirely new forms of plants. It doesnt HAVE to be the result of heavy inbreeding, thats just easier so most do it that way.... Its not the path i will be taking at all.....

You can also do breeding along the lines of how people did it long ago without even fully understanding it. more as a landrace. this would have the exact opposite effect of heavy inbreeding. You can also still select for distinct traits within that wider range. such as long storage, taste, cold toelrance, what have you..... any seed saver can do this, just by growing a few of each variety together (especially if they are outbreeders) and just saving the ones the like as your doing now. since youd be using different varieties though, theyd have different recessives and alos different even unexpected ways to line up the traits you do see. So lots of un realized potentials can surface.

Casey Halone wrote:
Food Matters changed what I eat period.

Food Beware:  The French Organic Revolution that movie did it for me.  I got crushed at the end of the movie, don't want to get into it... ..felt horrid for a family that didn't switch over to organic and kept spraying chemicals.   



@Silverseeds - My local library is pretty good and I will look for the book there to cut down carbon emissions from mailing books around. 

My intentions to try something more experimental with veg are always greater than what I actually do.  Perhaps this year I'll do more.  (I have some F1 Runner bean seed that I created last year..... )

I am aware of the landrace idea and think it sounds more sustainable than some of the techniques suggested in the book - where perhaps single plants were used to create a new variety.....

However I'll freely admit that beyond seed-saving existing varieties (and hopefully gradually making them more adapted to my conditions) that I have done very little else.  I guess my interest is still at the academic level!

Mekka Pakanohida wrote:


Food Beware:  The French Organic Revolution that movie did it for me.  I got crushed at the end of the movie, don't want to get into it... ..felt horrid for a family that didn't switch over to organic and kept spraying chemicals.   



@Silverseeds - My local library is pretty good and I will look for the book there to cut down carbon emissions from mailing books around. 

I ggot this from a thread around here some where... on this forum...

http://www.sharebooks.ca/content/plant-breeding-ebooks-raoul-robinson?phpMyAdmin=%2Ci00rPh2YR8Tv2gwH2Euk6h7dZ2

this should give you an understanding. Its just carol put it in a way that lets the gardener decide what to do with the knowledge.... It really can be totally passive and still help on many levels. or more directed and make possible things that just werent before you did the work.

Tater breeding...  yum!  ty Silver.

If you're into potato breeding, look no further than right here in Washington.  Tom Wagner lives in/near Everett, and has been breeding taters for 50 years.  He recently started a web site (and has sold out of several varieties already), which is currently undergoing some upgrading.  He sells TPS (True Potato Seed).

His site is: http://newworldcrops.com/wp/

More info @:  http://www.snovalleytilth.org/home_files/Tom%27s%20Taters%20.pdf

If you want to experiment with taters, Tom is the man to contact!

John Polk wrote:
If you're into potato breeding, look no further than right here in Washington.  Tom Wagner lives in/near Everett, and has been breeding taters for 50 years.  He recently started a web site (and has sold out of several varieties already), which is currently undergoing some upgrading.  He sells TPS (True Potato Seed).

His site is: http://newworldcrops.com/wp/

More info @:  http://www.snovalleytilth.org/home_files/Tom%27s%20Taters%20.pdf

If you want to experiment with taters, Tom is the man to contact!

I second that!!! TPS are VERY interesting. I got some from Tom last year. In addition to the newly formed seed company hes got his own forum. I havent been on there for awhile, but you can ask him things directly there.

a bit on TPS for those who dont know. one thing about growing your own potatoes is they build up diseases. Nothing in the world you can do to stop it as far as I understand it. so theres an elaborate procedure to ensure you have clean potatoes every few years, from which to grow out your plants, most potatoes being grown from the tubers. Clones basically...

So... TPS stands for true potatoe seeds. they actually set "berries" that have seeds in them, though many modern varieties dont do it often. even in a field of genetically identical potatoes, the TPS seeds will still show diversity. Its just how the plant lives.

So you can break the disease cycle by going from TPS. for those in colder regions this might mean starting them early or growing them to small tubers and using those tubers the next year. In warmer regions you can go right from the TPS and have full sized taters. that is what the south americans do/did.

Raoul Robinson and Carol Deppe recommend slightly different breeding styles.  I read both over the winter and their breeding techniques are somewhat different.  Indeed I understood that Raoul would be quite critical of some more conventional breeding techniques as advocated by Carol.

I reckon there's a place for many different styles of work..... 

  Well  a friend of mine is a breeder, who frankly did many things that are considered impossible or to hard to bother with.

  hes done these things many different ways, it just depends on the project. It can be done super complexly, but you can also get desirable results doing it much more passively. theres 100 variations in between really.

I'd be interested to hear some of those projects.

Plant breeding is a fascinating topic and I do think that people should be encouraged to start saving their own seed - because even that simple act (saving from the best) means that a strain adapted to the gardeners own range of conditions will be developed over the years.

I really like the landrace ideal I think.

Yet taking on a project (yes even a red apple) is likely to lead to some unintended outcomes which may even be beneficial.  Observation is key I guess - couple with the will to do something with what is found....

So I love stories of other peoples plant breeding antics!

silvereeds - Thank you for the inspiration. I have been doing this in a very small and unscientific manner on my tiny converted front lawn. I will do my best to get this book, though it will be a couple of months until I get some money coming in. I wish someone with more land could be the recipient, but if no one else will, then I will take it off your hands. Though, actually, it's possible I have plenty of info in the vast library I already am not reading.

I am often trying different things out, and writing about them in The Farmers Almanac (Harris Publications). Unfortunately, I am a terrible record keeper, though I try and try to do better.

The main area where I need improvement is closely observing for the desired traits and choosing those for seed. Too many times I forget to do that and end up with whatever I remembered to save. It is always nuts around here, with various remodeling and writing projects going on, visiting vagabonds and so forth. Mostly it is just me, though. 

RitaSparrow wrote:
silvereeds - Thank you for the inspiration. I have been doing this in a very small and unscientific manner on my tiny converted front lawn. I will do my best to get this book, though it will be a couple of months until I get some money coming in. I wish someone with more land could be the recipient, but if no one else will, then I will take it off your hands. Though, actually, it's possible I have plenty of info in the vast library I already am not reading.

I am often trying different things out, and writing about them in The Farmers Almanac (Harris Publications). Unfortunately, I am a terrible record keeper, though I try and try to do better.

The main area where I need improvement is closely observing for the desired traits and choosing those for seed. Too many times I forget to do that and end up with whatever I remembered to save. It is always nuts around here, with various remodeling and writing projects going on, visiting vagabonds and so forth. Mostly it is just me, though. 

you hit the nail on the head. noticing the differences between plants is arguably the most important part of breeding.

the great thing about breeding is it doesnt HAVE to be terribly scientific. atleast not with all types ofplants. though obviously the more you devote to it, the more profound the results can be...

but even just growing varieties that will cross together, and continuing to save seeds from the best will improve whatever you have, with you doing nothing but making sure you indeed selected seed from the best plants.