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Looks like my own fault for a lack of due diligence before creating an account. I tried to hold my nose and sign up despite the clear indicators that this forum was owned versus stewarded. The more I dig around the more I don't want to support this forum (didn't realize it was copyright at the bottom, as that alone should have been a red flag). I will keep it to reddit permaculture forum next time or other more public venues. Too bad, as there are a lot of good resources on here, but I'd rather support something a bit more open.

This has nothing to do with the replies I've received, which I am thankful for. I am happy to continue the conversation, but don't want to continue to support the medium it's taking place on as it conflicts with my own values of how communities should be run, and I don't want to directly support the owner whose values I don't suspport. Definitely not in the spirit of the gift economy that I believe is a part of the overall ethos of permaculture. I'm not tied to permaculture in any way, but I am tied to open, non-commercial, collaborative values.

Thanks again for all the input.
 
pioneer
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Thanks for visiting us.

It's true, our flavour of conversation is not for everyone.  It's for those who like talking about permaculture in a specific way.  But thankfully there are other places on the web that have other styles of communication.  It's all about finding the right microclimate for you to thrive.  Some like here, other's don't.

If you're ever interested in coming back to participate in our forum, please have a read of the publishing standards and the be nice thread for more understanding of what we publish. 

Also, if you wish to discuss moderation or have any questions about anything, starting a thread in the tinkering forum is the best way to get our attention. Discussion about moderation outside the tinkering forum will be promptly removed. 
 
pollinator
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??

OK then.

I've never spent much time on Reddit because it tends to be an abusive and nasty place, which is exactly the opposite of that Permies is.  That alone is a fantastic reason to support sites like this.  Perhaps there is a correlation between the "concern" you raised and the fact that it's well governed and carefully moderated so it had never devolved into a bunch of trolls screaming at each other?
 
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r ranson wrote: please have a read of the publishing standards and the be nice thread for more understanding of what we publish. 
 



The first couple of posts by Paul in the publishing standards section sounds about perfect to me.
 
steward
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Just now seeing this.

I think the important thing is that people that like this site think it is very open and friendly.  Some have said that it is finally refreshing to have a place to talk about this stuff without all the hate and all the trolls.  In the meantime, when the haters and trolls come through, they hate this place.  To them it is censored to the point that it is unusable.  

I just found out yesterday that the PRI forums have gone under.   I remember when I first posted to PRI, the vibe I got was "as an american, you are too stupid to appreciate permaculture, so bugger off cunt."  The policy at PRI was to be rather permissive - so that sort of "expression" was allowed.  But I really wanted a place to talk about the things I wanted to talk about in a way that I wanted to talk.  So that was one of the many reasons I created these forums. 

So this place is for one style.  PRI is for another style.   Mysteriously, these forums have grown massive. 

I wouldn't be able to do it without the 40-or-so people that help manage it.  And they do such a wonderful job of managing it, it seems that this issue got entirely resolved while I was off working on other things.  Good job R!

 
pollinator
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I have to agree. The proof is in the pudding.

But I suppose it's not surprising. I think one has to advance at least part of a Wheaton Eco-scale level to understand the necessity of the publication standards for keeping these fora thriving. Those only seeking to regress, and who "know what they know, and to hell with everyone who won't do it their way" just can't get any traction; no food for the trolls.

I suppose it's more comfortable for them under bridges.

-CK
 
pollinator
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First off, R Randson; I think the way you replied was incredibly well done. Articulate, clear and concise. Well done.

It never ceases to amaze me however how people know aggressive forum behavior does not work, yet forsome reason think passive form behavior will work as well. Clearly the first post was nothing more than a passive-aggressive letter of sorts.

My take has always been the same; someone has to be the leader and make decisions. As owner, I respect Paul Wheaton in that role and how he set things up. In my house, I love to get Katie and the girls opions on things, but if Katie and I have a stalemate on decisions, I get the final word. But honestly, that seldom happens, through conversation Katie and I come up with a consensus.

I am not fully convinced that such a passive-aggresive person was put off by how the forum was operated and owned. Like many people, I think there was misguided anger when the replies were not exactly what they wanted to hear. When a person tells a few times that "they were not upset by the replies given", it is a huge red flag that such a thing really IS the reason they are leaving.





 
pollinator
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I have so much respect and gratitude for the owner and moderators of this forum that this makes me sad.  Very diplomatic response R - wish I was so capable!   It seems the OP came here with a preconceived notion about  a forum that is "owned" and copyrighted.  He actually said he appreciated the discourse but in some vague way he doesn't share the owner's "values".   Huh?    This forum is free, for which I am immensely grateful as I can't afford many books or subscriptions.  Promotions for educational CDs, podcasts and books relevant to all readers here, is non-invasive and a wonderful thing for the authors and creators.  I think of this forum as like a public library with lovely nice research librarians helping out :)    I'm not familiar with any "gift economy" - is that synonymous with "anarchy" ?  Sounds wonderful but naive and unrealistic.   Let the OP start a completely free, completely open public forum and see if he can accomplish a smidgeon of what Paul has, in 10 years, to SHARE information with the world without devolving into spewing ugly, negative, hateful comments.    There are very few "open" forums that I can explore comfortably, as others have said here.   In fact there are some days when I'm so horrified by the news that I choose to come here afterward just to center myself and re-discover that there are still many many unselfish,  thoughtful, salt of the earth people in the world.  So THANK YOU Paul, and everyone who works very hard to nurture this endeavor.
 
Travis Johnson
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[quote=Susan Pruitt]I have so much respect and gratitude for the owner and moderators of this forum that this makes me sad.  Very diplomatic response R - wish I was so capable!   It seems the OP came here with a preconceived notion about  a forum that is "owned" and copyrighted.  He actually said he appreciated the discourse but in some vague way he doesn't share the owner's "values".   Huh?    This forum is free, for which I am immensely grateful as I can't afford many books or subscriptions.  Promotions for educational CDs, podcasts and books relevant to all readers here, is non-invasive and a wonderful thing for the authors and creators.  I think of this forum as like a public library with lovely nice research librarians helping out :)    I'm not familiar with any "gift economy" - is that synonymous with "anarchy" ?  Sounds wonderful but naive and unrealistic.   Let the OP start a completely free, completely open public forum and see if he can accomplish a smidgeon of what Paul has, in 10 years, to SHARE information with the world without devolving into spewing ugly, negative, hateful comments.    There are very few "open" forums that I can explore comfortably, as others have said here.   In fact there are some days when I'm so horrified by the news that I choose to come here afterward just to center myself and re-discover that there are still many many unselfish,  thoughtful, salt of the earth people in the world.  So THANK YOU Paul, and everyone who works very hard to nurture this endeavor.[/quote]


I have nothing to add to your statement Susan; and certainly would never take anything away from R Ranson and what she said, but I think you are very capable at being diplomatic. It was a great response, not just because I happen to agree with it, but because of how well you worded it.

Well done.
 
pollinator
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Elron Larch wrote:Looks like my own fault for a lack of due diligence before creating an account. I tried to hold my nose and sign up despite the clear indicators that this forum was owned versus stewarded. The more I dig around the more I don't want to support this forum (didn't realize it was copyright at the bottom, as that alone should have been a red flag). I will keep it to reddit permaculture forum next time or other more public venues. Too bad, as there are a lot of good resources on here, but I'd rather support something a bit more open.




mkay, bye [shrugs and wanders off]
 
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When I hear "gift economy" - I see an unemployed, upturned hand who has never been blistered from pro bono soil-work.

Bye!
 
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Well, I am very happy with the way the forum runs.
I have been pulled up and asked to change things , and it did not hurt my manhood etc to make then change, it was a reasonable request, so I complied.
I have no idea how people actually stay on sites which do not moderate the language and abuse.
Thanks for the effort by all
 
John C Daley
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I have to comment and ask the question, 'how can anybody live in a community and not engage with commercial activity?'
The very footpaths people use were built by contractors, etc, etc.

How can one live in a gifting community?
Or a community where everything is free?

Am I misunderstanding Elrons position?

I was involved with a group a while ago who decided that local taxes should not be payable. I asked, well who is going to clean away
either storm damage or road kill of big animals on the roads within our community.
The response was that local farmers may help and do it as a community service!!!

I asked, well why should they, when others are not prepared to help in some way?

They started to see the implications of reality at that stage.
 
Susan Pruitt
pollinator
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Awww shucks folks!   I'm grateful for the pie and affirmations.   Always suffering a bit from social anxiety, it made my day.   And now I need to go read the instructions on how to use this honor, tehe :)

John Daley I'd love to see a whole thread on the topic of a gift economy if there's not already one.
 
raven ranson
pioneer
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I do like the idea of giving back.

When I come to a forum and ask a question, I take the time to answer two questions back.  I figure that I'm expecting someone to give me their valuable time and knowledge to answer my question, I feel the responsibility to give back to that community.  So I take the time and look around to see what questions others have asked that I can answer. 

That's what I imagine a sustainable gift economy would look like.
 
Peter VanDerWal
pollinator
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Ok, so did I miss something?  The OP complains about this site because it is "owned" by someone and has a copyright notice, then states that they are going back to Reddit.

Newsflash EVERY site on the internet is "owned" by someone (including reddit) and pretty much every forum I've come across has a copyright notice (including reddit)

From the bottom of every reddit page:
" © 2018 reddit inc. All rights reserved."
 
girl power ... turns out to be about a hundred watts. But they seriously don't like being connected to the grid. Tiny ad:
Food Forest Card Game - Game Forum
https://permies.com/t/61704/Food-Forest-Card-Game-Game
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