Exploring round building and interior/exterior design

This inspiring article is from BBC's Heritage Architecture series: "Spain's ingenious fairy-tale houses".
Any permies working on round buildings or organizing a circular space? Please share your progress, challenges and/or experience. I for one would love to hear and see more about what's happening in circular building and organizing round living spaces.

That is wonderful, Thank you for listing it.

Amy Gardener wrote:This inspiring article is from BBC's Heritage Architecture series: "Spain's ingenious fairy-tale houses".
Any permies working on round buildings or organizing a circular space? Please share your progress, challenges and/or experience. I for one would love to hear and see more about what's happening in circular building and organizing round living spaces.

Round buildings have an intangible magic to them, I have built domes and multi-story "silo" buildings, plans are being made for tipis and yurts. The trick is to make them super energy efficient and affordable.

Thatched roofs are beautiful but you have to be rich to afford the upkeep, I'm guessing bugs and mold would be a real issue. And fire? Yikes.
Luckily there are alternatives which are beautiful and long lasting.

I have a build coming up just east of Albuquerque, we will be building several domes out of recycled materials. If you want more info you can reach me at AquaponicDave@gmail

I spotted this house on Zillow.  Now, I like Darlington, SC... but crime and economic depression may be off-putting to many.  If a Permie does buy this place, please get in touch.  I have family just up the road and wow, does that area of SC need some creative, regenerative entrepreneurs!  https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/425-Palmetto-Rd-Darlington-SC-29532/72022775_zpid/

"Poetry Dome" image provided by Dave Pennington looks a lot like a traditional Mexican Temazcal. Any connection?

Oops, I mis=read the title - though you said round wood

Dave, what is EPS? I found this definition.
Earnings per share (EPS)

John C Daley wrote:Dave, what is EPS? I found this definition.
Earnings per share (EPS)

EPS stands for expanded polystyrene
it is what most people call "Styrofoam"

Styrofoam is actually a specific brand of extruded/expanded polystyrene.

Amy Gardener wrote:"Poetry Dome" image provided by Dave Pennington looks a lot like a traditional Mexican Temazcal. Any connection?

It does look like a temazacal, but I didn't know what those were before I built it.

I made a small dome (10' diameter) that is used as a sweat lodge but it doesn't have the fancy doorway.

Great idea to use recycled materials for a sweat lodge, Dave! Are you willing to share images? How do you heat the interior?

Amy Gardener wrote:Great idea to use recycled materials for a sweat lodge, Dave! Are you willing to share images? How do you heat the interior?

They build a fire nearby and bring in some hot rocks to make steam.
It's pretty small inside but they do sweats with quite a few people.
The acoustics are pretty wild because it is a hemisphere.

Hi all, I’m currently building an earth bag dome home, building the kitchen dome, I hope to have This one dome done in the next two months so I can finish inside when it’s cold and windy out!

They build a fire nearby and bring in some hot rocks to make steam.

Thank you for sharing these photos Dave: very intriguing!
Protecting that expanded polystyrene from the red hot lava (which do glow red in the dark) from the heat sounds like something revolutionary. Are you willing to share your secret about protecting the floor from melting? What is the grey coating?

Amy Gardener wrote:

They build a fire nearby and bring in some hot rocks to make steam.

Thank you for sharing these photos Dave: very intriguing!
Protecting that expanded polystyrene from the red hot lava (which do glow red in the dark) from the heat sounds like something revolutionary. Are you willing to share your secret about protecting the floor from melting? What is the grey coating?

The grey is portland cement, which binds EPIC. (EPIC = EPS + Paper Infused with Cement). Other binders work but portland cement is usually what I use.

If EPIC is heated beyond the melting point of EPS the EPS fuses with the cellulose fiber and releases a small amount of volatile components. What is left behind is a fused carbon matrix which doesn't burn because oxygen can't get in fast enough for that to happen. The carbon matrix acts as a powerful insulator, and EPS beads just 1/4" away from intense heat for extended periods do not melt.

I have made rocket stoves out of EPIC, the fused carbon matrix can withstand temperatures well beyond 2,000 degrees F. This carbon layer is easily scraped off, to protect it I sometimes add a thin coating of refractory cement.

For those with concerns about the small amount of EPS volatiles which are initially combusted (quite cleanly BTW) pearlite or vermiculite can be substituted for EPS.

That is a super cool stove. Thanks for sharing!

Really inspiring posts Dave! So fire is not a problem for this building material (which activates plenty of imaginations here at permies). Next, please tell us about water. The steam in the sweat lodge probably fills the room with moisture. Temazcals often have a drain pipe for hosing out the steam bath to keep the space clean. Adobe is great here in New Mexico but water can be a problem with cob and mud, especially with the bathing habits of most US Americans that I know (long showers with water instead of cleansing with steam). How does your material work with water: freeze-thaw, drying, cleaning the spa and so forth? Are you using any domes to create a complete bathroom?  

Amy Gardener wrote:Really inspiring posts Dave! So fire is not a problem for this building material (which activates plenty of imaginations here at permies). Next, please tell us about water. The steam in the sweat lodge probably fills the room with moisture. Temazcals often have a drain pipe for hosing out the steam bath to keep the space clean. Adobe is great here in New Mexico but water can be a problem with cob and mud, especially with the bathing habits of most US Americans that I know (long showers with water instead of cleansing with steam). How does your material work with water: freeze-thaw, drying, cleaning the spa and so forth? Are you using any domes to create a complete bathroom?  

EPIC is waterproof but not water tight unless you apply a sealer of some sort.
Water does not damage it, freeze/thaw has no effect because the cellulose fiber flexes.
The oldest test pieces have been on/in the ground for about 12 years now. They seem to be just as strong as ever but I can't claim to have done rigorous scientific testing. Compression tests were conducted on fresh batches, one mix design came in at around 3,500 PSI.

The tests I conduct tend to be rather primitive; sledgehammers, rifles, that type of thing. https://youtu.be/c_l2aAHCa6k

The code engineers don't like EPIC because no one can really say how many greasy taco clam shells are in it.

Amy Gardener wrote:This inspiring article is from BBC's Heritage Architecture series: "Spain's ingenious fairy-tale houses".
Any permies working on round buildings or organizing a circular space? Please share your progress, challenges and/or experience. I for one would love to hear and see more about what's happening in circular building and organizing round living spaces.

The main difficulty, I think is that everything is made to fit in square buildings: shelves, furniture, closet space, appliances...Placing a flat furniture along a curved wall wastes space. IMHO, one can make straight walls in the center of the building and place furniture there.
I wish that folks who live in tornado alleys would consider rebuilding in round buildings: a shorter, squat, round building is wonderful to resist high winds!

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:

Amy Gardener wrote:This inspiring article is from BBC's Heritage Architecture series: "Spain's ingenious fairy-tale houses".
Any permies working on round buildings or organizing a circular space? Please share your progress, challenges and/or experience. I for one would love to hear and see more about what's happening in circular building and organizing round living spaces.

The main difficulty, I think is that everything is made to fit in square buildings: shelves, furniture, closet space, appliances...Placing a flat furniture along a curved wall wastes space. IMHO, one can make straight walls in the center of the building and place furniture there.
I wish that folks who live in tornado alleys would consider rebuilding in round buildings: a shorter, squat, round building is wonderful to resist high winds!

You have expressed a common concern, luckily Monolithic Dome Institute has a lot of pictures and floor plans showing how that issue has been dealt with over the years. One of their designs (The Orion) has flat panel walls arranged into a circle (with a dome roof of course). Flat panels are MUCH easier to mount windows and doors into, a far more difficult challenge than furniture placement. Countertops and cabinetry are equally important considerations, making curved ones is "SPENDY" as they say here in Texas.

https://www.monolithic.org/homes/featured-homes/the-orion

I have a round build in the works. I'm not quite ready to share it yet. I will post the details when it's more mature.

Dave Pennington wrote:
Thatched roofs are beautiful but you have to be rich to afford the upkeep, I'm guessing bugs and mold would be a real issue. And fire? Yikes.
Luckily there are alternatives which are beautiful and long lasting.

As I've had thatched roofing described to me, the outer layer will catch and burn quick and lightly , but the primary underlayer is too densely packed to catch easily. Can't remember if I was told it was better than other forms against fire, but at least not any worse if done by a tradesman.

I'll be attending a gathering this weekend where they will have a thatch demo, I'll see if I can get more referenced facts...

I built a round and fire-resistant dog house a few years ago.  It was fun to build and decorate it, and it looks cool!
The solar panels are for the pond bubblers - I put in a small pond in front of the dog house, and it has mosquito fish in it that need oxygen.

You can find some in the wild if you are fast enough...
https://cordwoodconstruction.org/blue-cordwood-in-the-round-in-ontario

Dave Pennington wrote:
They build a fire nearby and bring in some hot rocks to make steam.
It's pretty small inside but they do sweats with quite a few people.
The acoustics are pretty wild because it is a hemisphere.

Tanya Kieselbach wrote:
I built a round and fire-resistant dog house a few years ago.  It was fun to build and decorate it, and it looks cool!

I have been wanting to build a small dome for years but just don't really know how to get started.  If either, or both of you, would make threads showing how, I would be eternally grateful :)

Dave Pennington wrote:

Amy Gardener wrote:

They build a fire nearby and bring in some hot rocks to make steam.

Thank you for sharing these photos Dave: very intriguing!
Protecting that expanded polystyrene from the red hot lava (which do glow red in the dark) from the heat sounds like something revolutionary. Are you willing to share your secret about protecting the floor from melting? What is the grey coating?

The grey is portland cement, which binds EPIC. (EPIC = EPS + Paper Infused with Cement). Other binders work but portland cement is usually what I use.

If EPIC is heated beyond the melting point of EPS the EPS fuses with the cellulose fiber and releases a small amount of volatile components. What is left behind is a fused carbon matrix which doesn't burn because oxygen can't get in fast enough for that to happen. The carbon matrix acts as a powerful insulator, and EPS beads just 1/4" away from intense heat for extended periods do not melt.

I have made rocket stoves out of EPIC, the fused carbon matrix can withstand temperatures well beyond 2,000 degrees F. This carbon layer is easily scraped off, to protect it I sometimes add a thin coating of refractory cement.

For those with concerns about the small amount of EPS volatiles which are initially combusted (quite cleanly BTW) pearlite or vermiculite can be substituted for EPS.

Where do I find out the specifics on how to do this?  I'm fascinated.

Cement and recycled EPS offer lots of possibilities. As we wait for the details Trace requested, here's a video that shows how to build a dome with stones, mud and saplings to inspire natural building enthusiasts. This video shows the construction of a temazcal:

Two things pop into my head about round buildings.

First is just entertaining as a story and probably not reproducible.

Years ago one of my fellow junkyard owners bought a section of one of the giant rockets from Cape Canaveral surplus sale.
After the hauling and permitting nightmare to get it up here to north FL he set it upright and put a roof on it from an old grain bin and proceeded to trick it out as a nice house. Talk about indestructible.  That was 40 - 50 years ago and I'll bet that thing is still sitting there out in the woods today.

The other thought was Bucky Fuller and his experiments building housing from round grain storage bins around WW 2 time.
Not much online on the details but in J. Baldwin's book Bucky Works you'll find lots of the how to and discoveries with good pictures. One of the more fascinating things Bucky discovered messing around with these is that the natural airflow is not bottom to top, as your intuition might think, but top down and out along the bottom. It was an accidental discovery when they left a grain bin house shell hanging from a crane and discovered massive airflow top down when the sun hit the walls.

Jay Baldwin worked with Bucky for many years and his book has far and away the best tech insights on what Bucky was up to.
Second best book on bucky would be The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller by  Robert W. Marks, who also worked with  Bucky for many years. This one is public domain so free to download.

Erastus Cooley wrote:Hi all, I’m currently building an earth bag dome home, building the kitchen dome, I hope to have This one dome done in the next two months so I can finish inside when it’s cold and windy out!

Hey Erastus, that sounds interesting! It got lost as a comment in this thread. I'd love to see a separate thread where you post photos of your progress, and I think if you have questions or issues people will pitch in with opinions and answers, too.

Seeing Rebecca comment here reminded me of some things she has talked about in her own living arrangements.
The houses she describes have some areas that are enclosed but not actively heated (or cooled) .
They have seasonal green houses attached and rooms that are not necessarily occupied but still act as a temperature buffer for the occupied spaces.

How does this relate to round designs?
Well, the outer shell of the building  could be made round with all the benefits that come with that, but you could build inner compartments that could have properties like insulation or straightness, without needing to also  be waterproof/ wind proof , etc.
The space in between the inner and outer walls can be used for utilities, storage, hallways, cisterns,  live stock, etc.
By unbundling the tasks we think a wall should perform, we have more options.
If walls need to be strait to accommodate furniture and shelving units, we can give that task to an inner wall, and leave the outer walls to be curved and therefore stronger.

Hi Rebecca, thanks for the kind comment. I’ve been urged by family and friends to document and share my build, I should probably do it! One Thing that has helped me is looking at other similar builds, I’ll think on it.

Besides the resistance to strong winds, tornadoes etc., another advantage of a round building is that you could get sunshine from 3 sides whereas in a square building, you get sunshine form 1 or 2 only.

Trace Oswald wrote:

Where do I find out the specifics on how to do this?  I'm fascinated.

I am working on an instructional video and book, an initial draft will be available soon for those who wish to try this method. A few small projects are underway and they are helping with the simplification process.

Dave Pennington wrote:

Amy Gardener wrote:This inspiring article is from BBC's Heritage Architecture series: "Spain's ingenious fairy-tale houses".
Any permies working on round buildings or organizing a circular space? Please share your progress, challenges and/or experience. I for one would love to hear and see more about what's happening in circular building and organizing round living spaces.

Round buildings have an intangible magic to them, I have built domes and multi-story "silo" buildings, plans are being made for tipis and yurts. The trick is to make them super energy efficient and affordable.

Thatched roofs are beautiful but you have to be rich to afford the upkeep, I'm guessing bugs and mold would be a real issue. And fire? Yikes.
Luckily there are alternatives which are beautiful and long lasting.

I have a build coming up just east of Albuquerque, we will be building several domes out of recycled materials. If you want more info you can reach me at AquaponicDave@gmail

Dave Pennington,
I am interested in your use of recycled materials in dome building. Rather than refer us to an instructional video, and in the interests of discussing this method on Permies, could you give some more basic info on what the qualities of this material are, such as insulative value and, especially, any ofgassing of toxics either during, or after, the build.  The words "insignificant" or "small amounts" are not helpful, as these are subjective and/or misleading.  Actual names of chemicals released and amounts are important.  It would be great to keep non-biodegradable materials like styrofoam out of landfills, until they could be done away with but it wouldn't be helpful if it leads to emissions.

Another consideriation is breathability of building materials for houses vs. insulative values for the sake of health.  A certain amount of air exchange is necessary, especially in cold and humid environments.  Our breathing, bodies, cooking, etc. give off a lot of moisture and that water needs somewhere to go lest mold, mildew, and other nasties impact our health.

Thank you for contributing to our collective knowledge and conversations on Permies!

Amy Gardener wrote:Cement and recycled EPS offer lots of possibilities. As we wait for the details Trace requested, here's a video that shows how to build a dome with stones, mud and saplings to inspire natural building enthusiasts. This video shows the construction of a temazcal:

Truly inspiring Amy, thank you for this link.

I have been planning to build a wigwam in traditional materials here in upstate NY.  This temazcal build is fascinating. I assume the "mortar" is a mud-clay water mix? What region is this building style in; that is, what is the climate like?  How would such a material fare in rainy environments? Is there a natural material treatment that could make it rain/snow proof?  Here the traditional coverings are cattail mats and bark "shingles" (more like plates). The clay covering would be more durable it seems.  Our materials need replacing every few years and, at my age, I would like to avoid that!

Dave Pennington wrote:

Trace Oswald wrote:

Where do I find out the specifics on how to do this?  I'm fascinated.

I am working on an instructional video and book, an initial draft will be available soon for those who wish to try this method. A few small projects are underway and they are helping with the simplification process.

That sounds great Dave, I hope you'll keep us posted when it is ready to go.

Coydon Wallham wrote:
As I've had thatched roofing described to me, the outer layer will catch and burn quick and lightly , but the primary underlayer is too densely packed to catch easily. Can't remember if I was told it was better than other forms against fire, but at least not any worse if done by a tradesman.

I'll be attending a gathering this weekend where they will have a thatch demo, I'll see if I can get more referenced facts...

We had an excellent demo on thatching at the local permaculture convergence in Wisconsin. The instructor didn't give any hard evidence on safety of these roofs, but did give more anecdotal background with two main points.

First, the common reputation of thatched roofs is derived not from careful study of them, but from the prejudices of economic elites that exploited the industrial revolution. As shale became more available to the elites and other cheaper and quicker styles were used on houses for the expanding middle class, the impoverished were left to get by with relatively less resources in older buildings with traditional thatching. As the chimneys aged and they lacked the resources to clean and maintain them, these houses increasingly became prone to burning down. The developing insurance industries took this as "proof" of how fire prone thatching is and municipalities correspondingly legislated them out of common use entirely.

The other point was to rip a page out of a phone book and hold a match to it. Then hold the match to the whole book. See a difference? Throw the whole book on a bonfire and it will burn. Throw some asphalt singles in another fire. I think the only difference between the two fires is I wouldn't want to be downwind of the one with the shingles. I'd also prefer to take my chances with the thatch if I were trying to escape a burning building.

Does anyone know if I could use earthen plaster on the interior of an Aircrete building?  It would be so much cheaper and healthier, I believe, than stucco mix.  We already put stucco on the exterior.  Ideas??? Robin Goff

Robin,

I don't know if it would make much difference in being healthier if entire building is made from aircrete, and I don't assume that aircrete would be not healthy . For concrete it matters where the cement came from - if it used some fly ash from coal furnace I would not accept it - due to possible radioactivity. On the other hand what is a cement? Just a mix of fired lime, pozzolanic agent and gypsum. So for example highly hydraulic lime can be similar to white cement.

I applied cement stabillized clay plaster to concrete bond beam and it stuck just fine - second rainy season and it's not showing problems.
Scratch coat had 3:1 clay to sand + 10% cement and rice straw, the second coat 5% cement and no straw.
If I had to plaster concrete inside, I would use the same mixes, except that for the last coat I would drop cement. However the soil or clay you are using may/will be different than what I have and results may be different. I would experiment first on some 1x1 m area. Also, interior plaster will be more forgiving than an exterior application.

Yes the aircrete is made with a concrete mix but using extremely less due to being pumped full of soap foam.  See https://www.domegaia.com
They do an awesome workshop and the 16 ft. diameter dome was constructed in 10 days as promised.  I am applying the earthen plaster rather than adding even more commercial stucco mix which is very expensive and caustic.  This project is an experiment and we are learning step by step.  Working to discover the most efficient building material in a cold and hot climate like Kansas.