Converting a paper clip into a 200 acre self sustaining permaculture ecosystem.....

Hey all,

I've been watching and learning from you all for about 5 years.  I love the camaraderie and the feeling of belonging everyone here seems to embody.

This will be a long series of posts, so here's the cliff notes:
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My family and I (liver transplant recipient wife, two little ones (6 and 7) and I (60 some ish yo)) have been transitioning from a suburban McMansion lifestyle to permie friendly self-sustainability.

We have 5 acres of old growth trees (hardwood and softwood mixed) that we are looking to upconvert to a 200 acre hardwood and pine plantation where we will use natural and mechanically sustainable methods to implement things like silvo-pasturing, aquaculture, permaculture, and other restoration agriculture techniques to build our permanent extended family homestead.

Our goals are to use what the land offers, both here and in the permanent location, to self-pay and self-sustain.

I am a Software Architect by trade, have a voracious appetite for learning, and am a self-taught welder, maker, builder, forester and Alaskan Chainsaw Mill operator.  

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Post and question one:

The existing property is populated with old growth (>200 years old, based on diameter and height calculations) walnut, red pine, and white oak trees.  We need to maximize the revenue on these to build our deposit on the new land.

Some options on the table:

Sell through a self hosted website. (I'm comfortable with felling, milling, drying, packaging, and shipping the product myself, and I've created websites for nearly 40 years).

Partnering with one or more local sawmills and share the workload/profits.

Working with a timber management company and letting them turnkey the process.

Offering a timber lease to a sawmill.

Selling the property outright (it's paid for and assessed around 120K) and moving the family.

Putting together some kick-starters and gofundme's, offering things like timber cookies as rewards.

Creating one or more Adopt a Tree campaigns to place conservation easements on individual specimens.

and anything else that I might not have thought of.

The question for the group:

What are your thoughts?

I would stay start small and see what works.  Maybe hire a portable sawmill to come out and produce some cuts and see What you can market while considering if you want to get a bandsaw mill of your own.  
I can be very hard to get timber value through volume sawmills when the timber is natural shapes and not grown to spec size.

I’ve been trying to hire a forester to broker a deal leveraging a local sawmill. Couldn’t get any interest. They all want bigger tracts than my 4-1/2 acre hardwood forest (white oak, chestnut oak, red maple, yellow poplar, and black locust). I hate to admit it but there are bigger payoffs for firewood than lumber.

Also, look into using some lumber for skiddable structures and animal shelter.  Making some shakes out of short stubs of big logs is pretty practical and sustainable -- just update the old building techniques building with a modern pneumatic staple gun!

Where the land is flat enough, design you silvopasture planting to be able to pull structures through it without going through ditches or hazardous slopes.  Usually with a 20' grid spacing, you can go through both directions with ease.

Vanessa,

Thanks for your comment.

I tried that route as well.  Most foresters around East Texas (I include Louisiana, Arkansas, and Oklahoma) are looking for at least 30 acres with about 30 tonnes per acre before they will talk to you.  Not a problem with the new acreage, but on the existing homestead......

Cheers!

Jay

Eric,

The existing homestead came complete with about a 50% canopy.  Plenty of space for the livestock as well as moving the timber up to the main road for milling.  I'm considering designing and building an articulated caddy for the larger specimems I will be harvesting.

It sounds like you have some knowledge on Silvo pasturing.  Do you have any suggestions for feedstock compatible with pine trees?

Thanks,

Jay

Hey Everyone!

Post #2

Dipping my toe in the waters for one of the paths I mentioned in the previous post.  Looking at selling the timber and resulting products directly to the consumer.  Thanks to Eric for suggesting going slow.  

All other options mentioned above are still on the table, but ya gotta start somewhere.  :)

Last night, I registered a domain and created a website.  Check it out if you have a moment.

slablumber.com

It's a work in progress, (I've not yet wired up the email) and a lot of the content is not yet relative to what I'm thinking, but you'll get an idea about one of the possibilities on our plate.

In the spirit of permies, sustainable forestry, and generally being good stewards of the planet, I am looking to use as much of the tree as I can.

Starting with my harvesting selections.  I have 8 or so trees at the front of the property that must be removed as they pose potential hazards to the house and the neighboring properties.  I started limbing and felling those last weekend.

I've sorted the results into several piles.  Trunks and limbs large enough to mill into lumber or slabs; limbs and branches large enough for crafting cookies, and everything else.  I'm collecting the sawdust from the chainsaws, chopping the everything else pile into mulch, and prepping the larger pieces for milling by sorting and sealing the ends.

Today's question for the community:

Any tips for working with Alaskan style chainsaw mills?

Cheers to you all and have a great day!

Jay

My region is one where almost every bit of old growth forest has been cut down except for some scattered patches.
I understand you are hopeful about this plan, but old growth is getting rarer and rarer every year, and is a living community full of diverse life that we have barely begun to comprehend, which takes five hundred years to grow and one year to destroy. I think from personal ecological observation (and others say the same), that ecologically speaking, 5 acres of living old growth is worth 500 acres of plantation or post-logging forest, at least. Maybe it would be possible to look up whether it could be viable to sell the land to a conservation organization, or find some other way to go without getting rid of the ecosystem?

I am just a person from a faraway land who cares about forests, and don’t mean to intrude on your business, but I hope you will at least think this over.

Hi Maieshe Ljin,

Creating an "Adopt a Tree" Campaign is one of the options I listed in my first post. :)

By any chance do you have a list of some of the US or worldwide conservation organizations that might be interested in partnering with me to accomplish such a thing?

Cheers!

Jay

Post #3

What did I mean with the title of this thread?

Hey All.

I've marked the trees on the donor homestead that must be cut down in order to protect the family, the house, and the neighbor's property.  Using the small electric chainsaw to limb, fell and move the timber into sorted piles or logs.

Spent a bit of time on the website and started work on a campaign to Adopt a Tree for the 4 acres of forest at the rear of the property.  I really like the idea of saving the old growth forest.

So why did I title this thread the way I did?

Probably 20 years ago, I remember reading a story about a guy who used craigslist to barter his way from owning a giant paper clip into owning a house.  It took him about a year or two, but he finally accomplished his goal.  To me, it was an inspirational story of using what you have in order to create something more.  The very nature of Paul's forums, teachings, and this community.

Question for the group:

Does anyone know of a URL or a place on this forum where I can see some pictures of homebuilt logging tools?  I'd like to build my own cranes, log lifts and carriers.  I Know how I'd design them, But I'd like to base my builds on what's been done in the past.

Post #4

It's raining today in East Texas, so working on timber housekeeping.  Made a couple of edits to the website, looking at how to price the different material I've got building up as I fell, limb and mill the trees that must come down. So far, I've got enough material to make some pretty decent sized slabs, some dimensional lumber, a-boat load of small and large cookies, enough small limbs to start a decent-sized piles of wood chips, and a bunch of hardwood sawdust I'm collecting.

I'm planting at least 3 seedlings in the locations where the trees must come down.

Just found out early last week that my contract software gig unexpectedly ended, so I'm looking for a new one.  Gives me plenty of time to continue prepping the existing homestead and continuing to make plans for the expansion.

Questions for the group: (two for this post)

1. Does anyone out there have a formula for pricing live edge slabs at various widths?  It seems to me that the wider (older) the slab is, the rare and more expensive it should be, and my research on other commercial ventures price older and wider slabs higher on a per board foot level, but my research hasn't gotten yielded any hard and fast numbers.

2. Looking for some help on the types of seedlings to replace the trees that must come down.  Think I want to go for high carbon sequestration to replace everything, but I'm open to other purposes as well.  Any thoughts on maximizing the ecological benefits of reforestation?

Thanks,

Jay

Jay,

A lot to unpack in your thread.  So I am going to hit what stood out to me.  Live edge slabs is a seller's market.  Very hard to find and much sought after.  Your best bet is to have a good internet catalog that documents each piece with dimensions, species and LOTs of photos.  Welcome questions by having each piece hold an inventory number of stock number, so specifics can be clear for that particular piece.  I don't think your going to find a formula, because they are not really a commodity.  They are all unique one off pieces, unlike traditional dimensional lumber.  There are hardwood lumber retailers in Houston and I believe Dallas that you might want to introduce yourself and project to.  They are going to have customers inquiring about one of a kind projects; and may be able to sell for you if the arrangement is mutually beneficial.

Another outlet you might have luck with is custom builders.  Most live slab demand comes from high end homes wanting a 'rustic' look for a mantle shelf, or beam.  Custom contractors and builders need to know you are a source for them.  The same is true with custom furniture makers.  Get to know ones in your region and show them how easy it is for their clients to pick their own slab online for the creation of their one of a kind dining table, etc...  They are craftsmen and want the convenience of not spending valuable time searching for materials rather than producing works.

Lastly, find the Rocker, woodcraft, high end wood working shops.  They have bulletin boards to advertise businesses in their stores.  Have fliers and cards.  Again, this is a niche market.  You have to find your customers where they traffic.  

As far as replants, do some research on Paulowina.  Here is a link:  Paulowina Association

It is a lightweight hardwood that grows very quickly.  Harvest at 10 years and have regrowth ready in another 5 years.  Was once highly prized in Asia, but seems to be waning, as they want slower growth/higher density pieces for their heirloom projects.  However, if one had a supply of domestic lumber; one could  get into the high strength composite movement that is developing.  Carbon fiber and Basalt fiber are growing in use as people discover the applications over more traditional aluminum structures.  

It is also reported to be a high carbon sequestering tree.  Makes great tasting honey and grows back from pollard faster than most pine and pulp species.  If you have 25 years or so to wait for harvest then black cherry and black walnut will be better choices, as they are always in high demand.

Jack,

Wow!  Lots of relevant and useful information.  Thank you so much for sharing.

Jay

From what I've read here on permies, I think it's very difficult to make a lot of money on raw trees on such limited land.

That means I agree with the need to find some way to economically achieve, "value added". The live edge slabs is one of those. I don't know what my neighbour with a small sawmill charges for his, but I do know he makes some money that way. He's semi-retired and has a pension, and just his wife to support. He does take on contracts to cut wood to size and he does care-taking of properties as well.

I would recommend you read, Coppice Agroforestry: Tending Trees for Product, Profit, and Woodland Ecology
by Mark Krawczyk    https://www.coppiceagroforestry.com/

They go into coppiced based businesses, including a way of "sort of coppicing" Christmas trees and other winter decor. I say "sort of" because technically what is being done, doesn't qualify as coppicing which only works the defined way on deciduous trees.

Similarly,if you're looking for tree crops that can make a profit, Mark Sheperd's Restoration Agriculture has good ideas.  He proposes alley cropping with trees on contour,  using a wide variety of edible tree crops and nitrogen fixers for a sustainable, long term farm.

It could easily take several small income streams to accomplish your goals. At one point, Sepp Holzer wrote that he would never again allow his farm to rely on a single income stream. I think that is good advice!

Hi Jay,

Thank you for the advice.  I'm currently reading Shepard and will start on Krawczyk shortly.

I agree that multiple income streams are the way to go.  Since right before the pandemic, the corporate world has gotten so topsy turvy, I keep chastising myself for not going there sooner.  

Value add on the current inventory has already begun.  Today I'm designing and building a portable gantry crane to lift these heavy logs to move them out of the way of the rest of the felling that needs to be done.

Have a great day.

Jay

Hey all,
Post # 5

Looks like value add to the trees is going to be the best way to go for us to get to the 200 acres homestead.  Over the past couple of weeks, I've:

Limbed all of the large trunks in order to fell the first tree that must come down.  It is a nearly dead walnut tree that was over 80 feet tall at its highest point, and the limbs branched out over the neighbor's fence and out buildings.

Managed to limb about 8) 10-12 foot long pieces averaging 6-12 inches.  

Been pretty ecological in the limbing:  so far, I have not used a gas powered chainsaw at all.  Been felling everything with my 18V 12" inch chainsaw.

Planned out the milling of the timber.  In an effort to use every part of the donor trees, I will be producing Live Edge Slabs up to the length and width of the timber, large crosscut rounds suitable for furniture, small cookies for crafting, hardwood mulch from the limbs and hardwood sawdust from milling and cutting operations.

Finished the portable gantry crane.  I'll post some pics of it and the other custom built tools I've created for this project soon.

Worked on the vertical and horizontal mill designs.  I've examined several of the designs available on the internet, and that brings up today's question:

For the horizontal mill, I am considering making the cutting mechanism stationary and moving the timber along a conveyor system.  Most industrial processes follow that pattern.  I see that most hobbyist / prosumer / products move the cutting mechanism instead.  Assuming my design can handle the weight and allow for smooth movement of the timber through the sawing station, can any of you think of other reasons why I should keep the timber stationary and move the saw?

Have a great day, everyone.

Jay

Not my area of expertise, but I have a neighbour with a mill that uses big round vertical blades and one that uses some sort of horizontal blade, and before he put those together, he used a chainsaw with special attachments. In all three cases, the wood stays still and the saw moves. I may need to ask him some other questions today, so I'm quite prepared to reach out, but he doesn't do computers.

1. He always says to choose the length of a section of wood + 1/2 foot that you want the end product to be, as that way you will get more useful wood out of a single tree. If you are milling without a pre-order from a customer, you may have to make some educated guesses, but L has a 16 ft mill and rarely cuts anything that long.
2. Ideally, the wood needs to dry slowly out of the sun, with bits of wood to hold the valued wood apart. This takes a huge number of same thickness bits of wood, and a bunch of space under cover but with airflow. This decreases the risk of warped boards and split ends.
3. To decrease the risk of split ends specifically, he paints the ends of the wood before he even starts cutting. He uses cheap water-based paint, but I have heard of mixes that include wax that would be more permie. Not sure if I've read of Linseed oil being used for that.
4. Remember that wet wood is *very* heavy, so no squishing yourself. L uses an old excavator with caliper shaped grabbers to move big bits of wood.

Jay Clayton wrote:

Question for the group:

Does anyone know of a URL or a place on this forum where I can see some pictures of homebuilt logging tools?  I'd like to build my own cranes, log lifts and carriers.  I Know how I'd design them, But I'd like to base my builds on what's been done in the past.

I know there are some around here. Logrite makes a bunch of log arches, from small ones meant to be moved by hands up through ATVs and tractors. Their website has a bunch of pictures.

Logrite

This man forged his own Peavey:



I'm very curious to see your crane!

Hay Jeremy,

Thanks for the info.  I will be posting pics of the crane, the transforming/articulated log hauler, and the multi-headed sawmill sometime later this month.

Cheers!

Jay

Jay Clayton wrote:Hay Jeremy,

Thanks for the info.  I will be posting pics of the crane, the transforming/articulated log hauler, and the multi-headed sawmill sometime later this month.

Cheers!

Jay

I am really looking forward to seeing that, old time manual cranes (and any type of force multiplier really) are an interest of mine. I know they were used extensively in shipyards in centuries past, but I’ve never come across any real information on them. Even pictures are rare.