Two more birds down

Basically every other Friday this month, I’ve lost one. No symptoms. The mid-October one had the following report:


“At necropsy the bird is in acceptable postmortem condition, thin body condition (BCS 2/5). There is a palpable fluid wave in the coelom. a moderate amount of ascites is present internally. The peritoneum is thickened and opaque. The left liver lobe has a slightly mottled appearance. The mesentery is thickened, tan, with multifocal to coalescing tan nodules of varying sizes. The intestinal walls are thickened. There are nodules around the pancreas. The ovary appears enlarged and neoplastic with tan nodules of varying sizes.
Ddx: Neoplasia (lymphoma vs adenocarcinoma vs other)”


Today’s I just buried. Same breed and age (2 1/2 years, Golden Comets).  I feed Faithway laying pellets.

Should I increase their forage? Switch feeds? I haven’t lost so many so steadily before. I’m not doing anything different from what I’ve always done, but I feel like it’s something I’m doing/not doing.

Sorry you are still having more deaths, is this due to the hepatitis?

I'm not exactly sure if my interpretation is correct but it may be more genetics than any other factors that might influence the birds health. The breed Golden Comets has some reports of being susceptible to neoplasia floating around the interwebs. Perhaps a different breed of chicken or at least different line of genetics might be something to consider?

Timothy Norton wrote:I'm not exactly sure if my interpretation is correct but it may be more genetics than any other factors that might influence the birds health. The breed Golden Comets has some reports of being susceptible to neoplasia floating around the interwebs. Perhaps a different breed of chicken or at least different line of genetics might be something to consider?

I agree that there may be something to be said for genetics. If it were multiple breeds experiencing this I would question that theory, but I know from experience that Golden Comets can be prone to health issues. I had some several years ago, and whoever wasn't culled had died by the age of four. It was almost like clockwork. A number of high laying hybrids (like the Comets) experience liver failure before or at 4 years old. So at least that problem is genetic.
In sheep, at least, we've experienced a definite connection to the genetics. We brought in several new sheep last year that came with pneumonia. We're so dry that we don't usually get pneumonia, but this spring at lambing time we had probably half the lambs get it, and quite a few die. The connection? Genetics. One ram had every one of his lambs get it, and while only one died, 2/3 of his remaining lambs took months to recover.  Another ram only has one surviving lamb. Interestingly enough, another ram only had 2 of his lambs get sick, and they recovered quickly. Genetics played a huge role in the outcome of the individual lamb's health.

The issue of genetics in specialty and heritage breeds is real and difficult to deal with. The smaller scale you're working with, the harder to fix, from my experience.

I'm living on an island, and have tried to keep a small flock of Khaki Campbell ducks going over the last couple of decades as some people who are allergic to chicken eggs, can eat duck eggs, and they're hard to get in the shops.

We had extremely poor hatchability and livability of Khaki ducklings when we first got started. I was told someone up Island had better success, but timing didn't work out to connect with them. Eventually, I managed to get some Khaki ducks that clearly had been interbred recently with Indian Runners (there's IR in Khaki's already, so this isn't a bad approach), and then someone raised some Golden 300 ducklings and we got some of them and eventually interbred a bit of them into our Khakis. Hatchability is still lower than for our chickens or Muscovy, but livability is way up. Unfortunately, Polish Crested is in the Khaki mix, and we've experienced throw backs of that which generally results in death.

Most importantly, laying numbers have been more or less maintained. Khakis are one of the best layers among ducks, and we're keeping ducks for eggs, so there's no point improving other problems if it gives the laying numbers a severe hit (little hit, I'm OK with!)

So if genetics is the problem, I'd be looking at where the birds came from, what characteristics in this breed you're in love with, what other sources of this breed are available to you, and what other breeds have similar desirable characteristics that could be supported by some careful interbreeding. This is not a "quick fix"! In your case, if the symptoms are only appearing at 2 to 4 years old, it will take a long breeding program and extremely good record keeping, to be sure you've improved the situation.

Anne Miller wrote:Sorry you are still having more deaths, is this due to the hepatitis?

No, this one was lymphoma. The final report basically said that I should consider my entire flock exposed to Marek's and make sure any incoming birds are vaccinated against it, preferably at hatch.

Timothy Norton wrote:I'm not exactly sure if my interpretation is correct but it may be more genetics than any other factors that might influence the birds health. The breed Golden Comets has some reports of being susceptible to neoplasia floating around the interwebs. Perhaps a different breed of chicken or at least different line of genetics might be something to consider?

This is definitely a factor, at least. In 2023, I got 12 Golden Comets and 12 Black Australorps from our local feed store, two weeks apart.  They use Mt. Healthy Hatcheries for all their chicks, which does vaccinate against Marek's, as far as I know.  I've also heard GCs really aren't as healthy -- after I bought them! But I expected the BAs to do better. They seem to be dying at about the same rate. Although I had some 2020 BAs, too, so it's possible the older ones succumbed. I don't band them, and unlike my son, I really can't tell them apart.

The one that died of hepatitis was a BA, and the one that died of lymphoma was a GC.  I'll need to replenish the flock, and I'm not sure yet how to go about that.

It sounds like you've got several issues. I don't know your position, but in mine, I would build a whole new coop and run as far from the existing one as practical, and start new birds there.

I would decide whether to let the old birds die naturally, or continue where they are, based on my observations (I *don't* consider "natural death" to always be nicer than "helping them humanely" because chickens will hide pain to protect themselves. It's a fine line and based very much on the situation.) However, once the old coop/run was empty, I would clean it thoroughly and re-seed the run area and use it for non-chicken uses for as long as I could, aiming for a minimum of 3 years, preferably 5 years. I'm always looking for deer protected planting areas, so I'm sure I'd make it productive somehow.

After that period, having two areas to rotate birds through is something I always like to have. I don't consider it a "waste of space" but rather important back-up infrastructure in case of any sort of disaster, or just to let an area of soil "rest".

I hope your research on choices for new breeds goes well. I'm sure fellow permies will help by describing their experiences. I certainly have met many different breeds over the years, but that has just made me aware that different breeds do better or worse based on many factors including but not limited to, climate, infrastructure, likely predators, etc.

Short answer: I would avoid introducing any new birds to the same area with the old birds or even shortly after the old birds are gone. Chickens peck and dig, and many things live in the soil for long periods.

Jay Angler wrote:It sounds like you've got several issues. I don't know your position, but in mine, I would build a whole new coop and run as far from the existing one as practical, and start new birds there.

I would decide whether to let the old birds die naturally, or continue where they are, based on my observations (I *don't* consider "natural death" to always be nicer than "helping them humanely" because chickens will hide pain to protect themselves. It's a fine line and based very much on the situation.) However, once the old coop/run was empty, I would clean it thoroughly and re-seed the run area and use it for non-chicken uses for as long as I could, aiming for a minimum of 3 years, preferably 5 years. I'm always looking for deer protected planting areas, so I'm sure I'd make it productive somehow.

After that period, having two areas to rotate birds through is something I always like to have. I don't consider it a "waste of space" but rather important back-up infrastructure in case of any sort of disaster, or just to let an area of soil "rest".

I hope your research on choices for new breeds goes well. I'm sure fellow permies will help by describing their experiences. I certainly have met many different breeds over the years, but that has just made me aware that different breeds do better or worse based on many factors including but not limited to, climate, infrastructure, likely predators, etc.

Short answer: I would avoid introducing any new birds to the same area with the old birds or even shortly after the old birds are gone. Chickens peck and dig, and many things live in the soil for long periods.

Well, I have 1/2 acre for backyard, garden, chickens, so the farthest I can get a new coop is maybe 100 feet. I guess uphill is better than down? I don't really have the capital to even build a new coop right now, either.  And we have dogs, so the chickens and garden have to be sectioned off from where the dogs can be.