Starting with bare land vs converting orchard to food forest vs land with house

Hi,
My family and I are looking for a larger piece of land to create a food forest with the goal of feeding ourselves and regenerating the surrounding environment. We're on Crete and so far it has been very difficult to find  anything close to what we're looking for here. Initially we though land with an existing house would be best cuz it's a lot less work upfront but then it's virtually impossible to find houses on big plots here, so I've been looking for fruit orchards that I could transition into a more diverse food forest that would also provide potential income and food from the beginning, but again that seems to be very hard to find here other than olives. If you were starting from scratch, looking for land to start a food forest, what would you look for and what would you be prioritizing?

Dareios,

I like your ambition, it reminds me of my own.

It would be helpful if you could give us an idea of your soil & climate type (I think I know that it is a Mediterranean climate), but for my thinking, I would go with the house and the bare land.  Here are the reasons:

1)  With a house you have a place to live.  This is no small consideration and no small cost.  You could start on the land right away.

2)  Olives, Olive oil, and Olive trees are all very nice, but in the end they are all--Olives.  This would make for a challenging diet.  Instead I would start with cleared land, the house, and start planting those trees & bushes to get the food forest (and a nice fruit patch!).

3)  Since you would be starting from scratch, you could tailor your ground to suit your trees.  I am somewhat notorious around here for spreading the gospel of Wine Cap mushroom decomposition.  I would be tempted to adjust the soil around your newly planted trees by doing some version of the following technique:
      1.  Make a circle around the dripline of your new trees.  If they are brand new and basically have no branches, I would make this circle have a radius of about 1' or 30 cm.  
      2.  Divide that circle into three 1/3 sections.
      3.  On one of those thirds, make a little arc of wood chips.  Inoculate with Wine Cap mushrooms.  Wait till next spring
      4.  On a second third, make a little arc of compost.  Wait till next spring.
      5.  On the last third, (normally left fallow) pile wood chips/straw/dried & shredded leaves/sawdust/Something "brown"/etc.  and just wait till spring.

4)  In spring, check for microbial activity.  Encourage whatever activity is there.  
5)  In fall, rotate by one third.  Expand as necessary to fit the dripline (probably does not matter the first year)


The goal is to get good, healthy populations of both fungi and bacteria.  The compost will load up the ground with helpful bacteria.  The Wine Caps do the same but for fungi (actually, mostly just Wine Cap fungi and they push everything else out.  But they work really well with soilborne bacteria.  That last layer is for the populations to balance out a bit.

This can make for some fantastically fertile ground for fruit-bearing trees.




Eric

If I had a choice between an established orchard or a house with a bare land I would pick the orchard. House can be built relatively quickly and it's easy to live in temporary setting in a warm climate. Trees in hot arid summer climates are difficult to establish, grow very slowly and can die easily in extreme temperature events. The most desired feature in such climate is shade that can be readily provided by mature trees. Without shade any small bushes or vegetables are quickly getting roasted, especially if the property is at higher elevation with a south facing slope.
In this case I would be looking for an olive orchard with possible other fruit trees: figs, almonds, maybe some grape vines. I would also make sure that the soil has some fertility and good depth, because olive trees will survive conditions that will kill other trees so good soil will help to establish more species.
And last but not least - water. The properties that you are seeing have olives only, because they are native to Mediterranean and extremely resistant to drought - most resistant from all trees I have. It may also indicate that the property does not have reliable water source and without sufficient water it's very difficult to start anything in such climate.

Hello Dareios!

This is such a good question. Raw land is a lot of work but you get to create what you really want.  I would look for deep soil and shelter from prevailing winds.  

I would look into what rules there are about what you can build.   Here in the US we have areas where they have a lot of rules about what and how you can build.   Other areas they don’t regulate so much.  I you want to do natural building projects you will probably be happier in an area with less regulations.

It looks like you get a good amount of rain.  I would still be nice to have access to water though. I would look for a place where you can have your own spring if that is possible.    FindASpring.com will help you find springs in your area.  

Usually there are properties with houses that are less desirable though real estate agents do not offer those as the commission is less as the asking price is less.

If my goal was like your of starting a food forest I would want an orchard even if the trees were olives.

My suggestion would be to compare the price per acre for raw land vs an olive orchard.  Which is the best deal per acre vs what amenities are available?  Amenities would be water, electric, sewer plus out buildings, fences, etc.

best wishes for your search.

Thank you! I love your ideas for creating fungal dominant soil!

Eric Hanson wrote:Dareios,

I like your ambition, it reminds me of my own.

It would be helpful if you could give us an idea of your soil & climate type (I think I know that it is a Mediterranean climate), but for my thinking, I would go with the house and the bare land.  Here are the reasons:

1)  With a house you have a place to live.  This is no small consideration and no small cost.  You could start on the land right away.

2)  Olives, Olive oil, and Olive trees are all very nice, but in the end they are all--Olives.  This would make for a challenging diet.  Instead I would start with cleared land, the house, and start planting those trees & bushes to get the food forest (and a nice fruit patch!).

3)  Since you would be starting from scratch, you could tailor your ground to suit your trees.  I am somewhat notorious around here for spreading the gospel of Wine Cap mushroom decomposition.  I would be tempted to adjust the soil around your newly planted trees by doing some version of the following technique:
      1.  Make a circle around the dripline of your new trees.  If they are brand new and basically have no branches, I would make this circle have a radius of about 1' or 30 cm.  
      2.  Divide that circle into three 1/3 sections.
      3.  On one of those thirds, make a little arc of wood chips.  Inoculate with Wine Cap mushrooms.  Wait till next spring
      4.  On a second third, make a little arc of compost.  Wait till next spring.
      5.  On the last third, (normally left fallow) pile wood chips/straw/dried & shredded leaves/sawdust/Something "brown"/etc.  and just wait till spring.

4)  In spring, check for microbial activity.  Encourage whatever activity is there.  
5)  In fall, rotate by one third.  Expand as necessary to fit the dripline (probably does not matter the first year)


The goal is to get good, healthy populations of both fungi and bacteria.  The compost will load up the ground with helpful bacteria.  The Wine Caps do the same but for fungi (actually, mostly just Wine Cap fungi and they push everything else out.  But they work really well with soilborne bacteria.  That last layer is for the populations to balance out a bit.

This can make for some fantastically fertile ground for fruit-bearing trees.




Eric

Hi Cristo, yes I agree with all your points.

Cristobal Cristo wrote:If I had a choice between an established orchard or a house with a bare land I would pick the orchard. House can be built relatively quickly and it's easy to live in temporary setting in a warm climate. Trees in hot arid summer climates are difficult to establish, grow very slowly and can die easily in extreme temperature events. The most desired feature in such climate is shade that can be readily provided by mature trees. Without shade any small bushes or vegetables are quickly getting roasted, especially if the property is at higher elevation with a south facing slope.
In this case I would be looking for an olive orchard with possible other fruit trees: figs, almonds, maybe some grape vines. I would also make sure that the soil has some fertility and good depth, because olive trees will survive conditions that will kill other trees so good soil will help to establish more species.
And last but not least - water. The properties that you are seeing have olives only, because they are native to Mediterranean and extremely resistant to drought - most resistant from all trees I have. It may also indicate that the property does not have reliable water source and without sufficient water it's very difficult to start anything in such climate.

Hi Samantha,
I 100% agree about the wind point. Crete is windy as hell so it's a major consideration here. The soil thing would be nice but there is something satisfying about starting off with crappy soil and turning it into black gold using permaculture.

Samantha Lewis wrote:Hello Dareios!

This is such a good question. Raw land is a lot of work but you get to create what you really want.  I would look for deep soil and shelter from prevailing winds.  

I would look into what rules there are about what you can build.   Here in the US we have areas where they have a lot of rules about what and how you can build.   Other areas they don’t regulate so much.  I you want to do natural building projects you will probably be happier in an area with less regulations.

It looks like you get a good amount of rain.  I would still be nice to have access to water though. I would look for a place where you can have your own spring if that is possible.    FindASpring.com will help you find springs in your area.  

I would definitely recommend to start with good soil. If converting bad soil to good one was easy, entire planet would be fertile. Soil forming processes are extremely slow, especially in climates that are arid and hot (and when wet - too cold for decomposition). To improve large amount of land quickly, would literally need tens of thousand of tons of imported organic matter.
I have deep sandy loam, considered one of the best in the state, but still can not produce vegetables or fruit bushes, but at least it seems good for the trees. In arid climates there are so many other challemges that it's better to limit them from the start.
Please look at valleys that could have fertile deposits and more water, but make sure you are not in a flood zone. Valleys may experience temperature inversions resulting in early/late freezes, but also in more pleasant summer nights Deep soil will also have higher water storage capacity.
Sheep and goats will be your manure producing soil improving friends, but they need food and good pastures will not form on shallow rocky soil.

I have always ended up with bare land due to price, but it comes with a cost. It takes time to establish the first things, but eventually it will get easier.

My lessons learned the hard way:

WATER.  Easy access to water in the dry season is critical to establishing a food forest quickly. Plus it’s really nice to take a shower once in a while.

ORGANIC MATTER. Junk species can be converted to mulch or compost,  IF you can break it down and get it to where you need it.

ACCESS. I spent as much on my last driveway as my last house. And didn’t build where I really wanted to because I couldn’t afford that driveway.