Forest Gardening

hey all,

im new here ( introduced myself elsewhere, see permaculture in amsterdam),

we are working with the dutch pc school design for creating forrest gardens. they work with gardens in circles. In the centre of the circle you would find a
tree. the diameter of the circle depends on the height of the tree, in the case of a standard un-grafted apple or pear, with its first branches at 2m, and growing over 10 meters in height
the circle would be 20 meters, but with smaller or dwarf trees the circle becomes smaller.

the circle consists of several raised beds shaped in rings and spokes. in the ring closests to tree berrie and other shrubs are planted. after that come some beds with herb and vegg.
the outer circle serves as a windbreak and could be soft fruit of very dwarf fuit trees. also a hague of topinambour (jerusalem atichokes) is possible.

Our circle is centrered by a big pear tree and in the outer circle among the wineberries are two very dwarf appletrees, a little pear, a little cherrie, two plums and some hazel.

On a bigger scale you can imagine a lot of these circles in different sizes being used for production, they are an easy way to design the spacing between trees in a way that leaves enough
space and light for production of other crops.


also we are busy with a new project in the public park here, and wondering of there is anybody who has experience with taking up existing forrest or woods, specially
in public parks, and on smaller scale. but that probably is more in its place in the woodland topic.

cheers
joop

That is pretty cool.  The circle lay out that is.  I don't know if I really have the space to do that easily but it does look like a neat way to arrange things.

What I was trying to describe maybe didn't come across very well.  Let me try again...

Leave the 'weeds', where you can, until such time as your desired crop replaces them.  This way no bare ground is exposed and the weeds can serve you as a living mulch as you slowly take the ground for your forest garden plans.

It's a different plan of attack from go in and double-dig the weeds under or rototill everything under.  You can see it in action on the Forest Garden with Geoff Lawton vids at youtube

I do tend to leaves weeds in place much of the time.  (Not much point in double digging in our sand anyway.)  Just need to clear them far enough away from the new plants so the new ones are not strangled before they have a chance.

Joop; I had  no idea swomp was still around, last I heard they were being arrested and kicked out (or that may be another group). Its great how your starting a forest garden for the city; great for maiking your presence known and positive.

Would you think about plant stacking to incorporate shade tolerate herbs and medicinals?

yep, although we dont talk about it outwards, for me, permaculture is the "toolkit" we rely on.

right now the situation in the park is that there are almost no plants in the herbacious, crawling and climbing layers. almost no soil life (if u turn a piece of dead wood there are almost no little beasties on it (i dont know the english name for these grey little thing that sometimes roll up when u touch them, and the ones with lots of legs) there is no humus, cos they always take out the fallen leaves and branches. just sandy soil.

first i will introduce lots of leaf material, build some piles of dead wood, and start introducing the other layers, including some shrubberies, right now there is just a lot of elder, thats it...

edit: the thing is in a normal park that they took out the edge, its grass to sit and play on, and then suddenly high trees so also i would build a real edge by stacking.

then, and this is the thing i need advise on, i need plants and stuff that are really shade tolerant for the core of the bushes, where due to the higher trees, almost no light penetrates the canopy. i mean ferns, wild carlic, and oyster mushrooms on brnches, maybe some comfrey more towards the edge, but then im out of ideas, also Vaccinium vitis-idaea (dont know the english name so i just put the latin) and Vaccinium myrtillus would probably survive, but produce very, very low yield.

but maybe this all is more in its place in the woodland thread.

about swomp, no we werent kicked out, we are still living here, some time ago they said that they wanted to put temporary containers on the site but they didnt apply for their permit so....

edit, edit:
@TCLynx, i dont know how little space you have but you can imagine that when using dwarfing rootstocks or very dwrfing rootstock the circle becomes much smaller, around a dwarfing tree you put only a few shrubs, an just 3 little (raised) beds so only with a few meters in space it can be done.

this way the fruit doesnt get put away in the, often shadier, back of the garden. which lots of people with small gardens tend to do. this way the tree gets the place it deserves but there is also a workable layout for starters to by stacking grow all the other layers around.

Neat thread.

The best I have found so far on making a Food Forest is Geoff Lawton's video "Establishing a Food Forest the Permaculture Way". It is an excellent resource and gave me the confidence to start mine.

I have begun with trees: especially Moringa and Mulberry.... but a range of regular fruit trees too.... as my beginning structure. And building the levels from the top story down.

I have been going to the extra effort of digging soil and sifting to harvest rocks and stones for building... and it also reveals the beautiful rockery beneath the soil. I want these above to be able to step from rock to rock and access the different parts of the garden. I am then replacing the dug-out bed soil using a lasagna-style method with greens... then browns... then manure... and then topsoil... and repeating until the bed is the desired height. The plants growing in areas I have worked like this have just taken off.

I am digging up pathways as well to have little reservoirs underneath for extra watering should I need it in winter... we are a summer rainfall area. I just build the pathway on top with some of the stones I have harvested from the bed-digging. I will pump water from the river using the river power to fill these underground reservoirs when needed.

At the top I am going to do a huge ditch.... staggered more as pits because the boundary does not allow me to go fully on contour for a complete swale.... so rain catchment will be more on a staggered contour but will be effective too I think... no reason why not. If I were to follow contour it would leave little land below for anything much in this area I have started with. The boundaries all over the farm are cross contour to give each acreage access to river frontage.... narrow rather than wide to effect this.

I love all the bio-mass that grows.... whether weeds or not. Even the Syringa trees I used to think of as pests. Everything becomes mulch or lasagna-bed ingredients. Some weeds are too precious to be used only as mulch ... like Purslane.... I have salvaged it as sorry little sticks from down by the river and have planted in the Food Forest. They are now 40cm high with large leaves... and super forage for me already. Pumpkin seeds from a rotten pumpkin have become rampant in growth and proving excellent shade protection for pineapples and transplanted papaya. The young papaya trees were dying after transplant without extreme care until this little growing "greenhouse" came along. Now its a breeze. The Pumpkin is easily a half meter high with large leaves.

I love this whole concept. It is a true investment of time. As the Forest matures the work-load lessens ..... but production keeps increasing until max. Although Bill Mollison says that that is only limited by our imagination.

Anyway... late here now so better quit all this reading and writing.

Lovely set of forums.

Chelle

Cyara wrote:
The best I have found so far on making a Food Forest is Geoff Lawton's video "Establishing a Food Forest the Permaculture Way". It is an excellent resource and gave me the confidence to start mine.

I've thought about ordering that video. Is there much information on temperate/cold climate forest gardens or is the focus on warmer regions? I'm here in the frozen north and it'd just be a tease if he starts talking about bananas, mangos, and pineapple...

What was most helpful was how he sped up succession. That  could be done anywhere. But is is an Australian production and so more specific to warmer climates.

Shows a lot of successful Food Forests...etc. too.

There has been a lot of interesting theoretical and field ecology work in 'assembly theory'.  When applied to vegetation it tries to answer the question of 'why is composition what it is'.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=forest+assembly+theory&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0

One factor could be that 'it got there first'.  I think preemption is an important factor overlooked.  Seed bank and root mass is 9/10ths of site possession.  I would think long and hard before trying to build an intensive system without eradicating rhizomatous grass, it will knock the complexity right out of your ground layer.

I am unconvinced that everything we see is a reflection of environmental controls.

Hi,
i dont want to sound as a newbie here,
but would you care to explain a bit about rhizzomatous grass... as in, what is it?

i mean i know a lot of objections against the surpressing effects of grass (actually slowing succesion down?) but rhizzomatous grass? i would guess its a grass that has symbiotic relations to certain funghi?
--------------------------

One factor could be that 'it got there first'.

I would think long and hard before trying to build an intensive system

Do you mean to say here that introducing certain invasive plants that (in permaculture) are often advocated as 'usefull weeds' can surpress succession in such a heavy way that it outweighs the advantage of low maintanence that such pioneers have?

or was it specifically about that grass you mentioned?

I am unconvinced that everything we see is a reflection of environmental controls.

I agree, even if just because it is really hard to observe any situation in which our influence can be ruled out.

you can wonder if all that we see (also when it IS a reflection of etc...) is neccisarily desirable/advantageous for us.

sometimes the natural state of an ecology actually works towards a less profitable (not in terms of money) situation for humans doesnt it.

i would imagine that in certain situations you would first set an ecology to evolve in a certain direction (prairy/meadow, in stead of forest), after which you will stribe towards making that type of ecology a closed circle, complex system (with all kind of invasive plants, that mostly is able of running it self.

"i dont want to sound as a newbie here,
but would you care to explain a bit about rhizzomatous grass... as in, what is it?"

Talk about a newbie telling a newbie.  Rhizomatous grasses are grasses that spread through use of rhizomes (as in the long kind... most grass has 'tillers').  In my neck of the woods, crab grass or quack grass (Agropyron?).  Very well adapted to dominating ground vegetation, very hard to get rid of, very competitive.  Current research suggests that very few plants don't use mycorrhizal (myco=fungus rrhizal=root) associates (interestingly enough mustard and spinach family are two).

"Do you mean to say here that introducing certain invasive plants that (in permaculture) are often advocated as 'usefull weeds' can surpress succession in such a heavy way that it outweighs the advantage of low maintanence that such pioneers have?
or was it specifically about that grass you mentioned?"

I thought I'd wait a while before provoking a invasive plant dialog.  I think according to the theories of Grimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philip_Grime) fertile polycultures are often composed of thugs.  No... I was thinking about the grass at the moment.

"I agree, even if just because it is really hard to observe any situation in which our influence can be ruled out."

I would say that random chance, and what plant happens to occupy the space first, and what the place used to be like all affects the plants we see in a particular place, maybe as much as current environmental conditions.  Like a lingering patch of Comfrey is the sure sign that a Permaculture renter passed through 

I hear some of the older varieties of strawberry tolerate shade very well, and are quite tasty.

I bet there are local, native varieties you might use for ground cover. It would also be a nice feature for the park, and a good way of discouraging the management from using toxic chemicals (Won't someone think of the children?!  ).

wow theres so much to reply to here.... I hope to get some land soon and do my own thing.. maybe in Floyd or Patridk in va . I'm presently in New zealand doing a permavulture projedct on a friend farm  being  homeless I don' want to spend a winter in the USA  I plan to be back soon though to continue some projects in Massachusets and ft jones  california. Being from SW Va I"d love to have paw paws and maypops ...a native passion floweer.  about th weeds I love to use cardboard amd thick straw mulch. Its amazing how fast the worms come back too. I've often thought of buyhing a Kudzu farm  making my own alcohol fuel and with the help of a few pigs  turn it into a paradise. does anyone know if pigs can clear it out?

Joel Hollingsworth wrote:
I bet there are local, native varieties you might use for ground cover.

I've been using Fragaria vesca.  It has spread really well (4 inch to 2 foot patch to 4 foot patch in three years... not much transplant shock) and in the sun it yields a lot, but it takes a long time to harvest enough for storage of processing.  They taste a lot like kid's strawberry toothpaste.. a lot of strawberry in every bite.  They might dry well, as they start out less juicy.  Fragaria chiloensis produces much less.

I figure they'll be a good binder between other spp. but may not competitively hold ground very well.  I planted into earth pockets... on sheet mulch... horsemanure+rockpowder, cardboard, then 6" arborist chips.  I just threw some more wood chips on a patch to see how resilient they are to shallow mulching.

I still like my irrigated managed beds for efficiency of harvest and storage... seems like you may pay coming or going.

If you've never found them in the NW, check out 4th corner nurseries... good folks and conservation pricing...

http://www.fourthcornernurseries.com/

Hello Nick  from SW VA and Jade from Shasta and all the fellow forest gardeners.. I posted last night in the dark on this thread I think... not sure....I had trouble typing..... Nick... I plan to get a few acres in SW va somewhere near Roanoke and I hope to do some raised bed spirals in the style of Eilia Hazelip I hope to have Pawpaws and persimmons too. The native persimmon of va is very different than the one in California. Its a smaller  fruit that puckers your mouth up until after frost then its sweet and sticky.It might do ok in the Shata area. I don't know if the trees are commercially available.I'm thinking to start some from seeds this spring if I can find any under the tree I know there. I"m not in va now.... I happen to be in New Zealand helping a friend on his farm.There is also a native passionflower from SW va called maypop. I could post a picture of it. It is delicious but the vine can be invasive. It dies back in the winter . Good luck with your forest gardens and I hope to have my own soon  Sam

Concerning grass and "who got there first":  The types of grass that Paul mentioned are some of the most difficult to irradicate and not very friendly to other plants.  Quack grass will send a root right through a potato.  I agree, if those kinds of grasses are on your site, and you just plant whatever right in it, the grass will eventually become the dominant understory, and might stunt the growth of your overstory. 

But -- in Joop's public space, grass underfoot might not be the worst thing.  High traffic areas demand a tough ground cover.  Perhaps the area directly around the trees could be solarized or something....I hear it takes a couple of years to kill some of these grasses with that technique though.  Tough stuff!  And, by nature of the grass, unless you kill every bit of it in the entire area....it will grow right back into whatever spot you don't want it in.

The forest gardening books emphasize that preparing the soil at the site by planting cover crops for a few years before the over story is planted will greatly increase the chances of successfully introducing your new polyculture.  There is a tendency for group projects in public spaces to need instant gratification on planting day - it might be an essential motivating factor, actually.  It's satisfying and exciting to put a tree in the ground!  It takes much more patience to spend time at site for a few years before any kind of tree or shrub is planted, disturbing the soil as needed and sowing cover crops that will improve the nutrient and humus content of your future forest garden site. 

marinajade wrote:
in Joop's public space, grass underfoot might not be the worst thing. 

Consider how to maintain an edge between the forest garden and lawn.  'The Public' hates something that is illegible.  if you maintain an edge between this and that that is clear (like a concrete curb..) you are more likely to get buy-in to the chaos beyond.  (p.s. WARNING this recommendation is not sustainable...)

There are plant borders that maintain themselves, either within a given plant or as a line between two species.

I've read vetiver grass is used to mark property lines, for example, but I could also imagine two species of ground cover (say, a grass and a broad-leafed species) maintaining a balance of power between them.

marinajade wrote:The forest gardening books emphasize that preparing the soil at the site by planting cover crops for a few years before the over story is planted will greatly increase the chances of successfully introducing your new polyculture. 

Interesting. Yes... I have read this too.

I have watched Geoff Lawton's video on Establishing a Food Forest and he planted trees straight away on top of the swale mound for more rapid succession. He surrounded them with legumes and green manures for nitrogen fixing and green mulching. Some trees were planted at the beginning as part of the final overstory and some were merely nurse trees to be slashed and laid as mulch as part of the succession.

His methods speed up succession tremendously. This is thinking from overstory down.... and I have been following this method ..... and am rather pleased with it. My interest is to plant as many fodder and forage trees as possible... as soon as possible... so this works for me. Also have planted the usual orchard fruit trees in between.

I do however prepare each bed before planting to give the plants the best start. The difference in the trees and plants between those beds which are prepared .... [lasagna style layering of compost material right into the bed] ....and those just left untouched and layered with mulch on top...  is enormous... so I will continue to do this. Very hard wrok but a once off. Besides I want to harvest the rocks sifted out... so double gain. Actually when I look at the plants I consider it more than a double gain.

we have planted perennial clover under our fruit trees, over time it will be replaced( or added to) with other species of ground cover.

cyara im with you, i have had to take out a lot of big rocks in some places. most people tell me how awful that must have been. i tell them the opposite and i now have rocks to work with, and i have been terracing a hillside to help retain water better with them. plus the stonework looks BEAUTIFUL!

I do however prepare each bed before planting to give the plants the best start. The difference in the trees and plants between those beds which are prepared .... [lasagna style layering of compost material right into the bed] ....and those just left untouched and layered with mulch on top...  is enormous... so I will continue to do this. Very hard wrok but a once off.

Well, that's what I'm saying.  Instant succession with sheet mulching and the like is instantly satisfying but ends up requiring more physical labor.  It works really well with groups of people - lots of hands make little work, and the reward of seeing trees in the ground -- nothing else like it!  I think it's most appropriate for small sites or public projects. 

Some trees were planted at the beginning as part of the final overstory and some were merely nurse trees to be slashed and laid as mulch as part of the succession.

I respect Lawson enormously, and what he's contributed to permaculture and forest gardening is very important, but working from the overstory down is only one way of establishment.  It's very useful in designing the horizon point of a mature forest garden, but the design process and the physical process of planting things don't necessarily have to follow the same course.  I personally don't want to plant a tree knowing that I'm going to remove it later.  I'd rather either plant that tree as a permanent mulcher, or find a smaller herb or shrub that performs the same function but isn't as much of a deal to replace later in the succession.  Just my preference.....trees are a pain to remove if you don't want them there.....

I think methods need to match the particular site you're working with.  If you sheet mulch over established perennials with persistent rhizomes, you'll probably be repeating the process in a few years, if not at the end of the season (I speak from experience!).  And if you're dealing with the most persistent of these plants, you run the risk of your desired species not being able to compete very well (or at all), and will require more labor in later years. 

For example (kind of an extreme one but it makes my point):  I interned in a garden that was planted in a burmuda grass live stock pasture.....soooo much needless work because twenty years ago there wasn't anything done in the way of site preparation, and we had to constantly dig the grass from the edges of every single garden bed, all summer long, every single year.  And in the perennial plants, we couldn't get to the grass, so it grew very well in the middle of anything that didn't get turned over annually.  It turned gardening into a battle of the grass.  Not fun! 

The best sites for forest gardens are often the most neglected ones, the places that need healing.  Spending a few seasons cover cropping, and planting herbs and shrubs before the trees go in will improve the soil dramatically without the laborious process of planting everything in lasagne style mounds (there is also usually the problem of where to get all that biomass for this type of planting).  Though, for some soils that might still be required for good growth. 

marinajade wrote:
Well, that's what I'm saying.  Instant succession with sheet mulching and the like is instantly satisfying but ends up requiring more physical labor.  It works really well with groups of people - lots of hands make little work, and the reward of seeing trees in the ground -- nothing else like it!  I think it's most appropriate for small sites or public projects. 

The exchange of more physical labour for the instant satisfaction of quick succession is a worthwhile exchange to me. It's a once-off. The Food Forest I have planned is essential to all the other animal integrations I plan into my system. Without it I cannot feed them sustainably. I do not consider buying in fodder as true sustainability. It takes time for trees to mature and putting them in first makes everything else possible a lot faster. Good economic sense. It is not such an enormous task. I am doing it will one helper. I do have to admit to love being outdoors... so that helps when the sun is hot.

I respect Lawson enormously, and what he's contributed to permaculture and forest gardening is very important, but working from the overstory down is only one way of establishment. 

Agreed. But I have found it preferable. Quick sucession is what I need and his methods are successful worldwide. Knowing exactly where I want to place the trees and nursing them with legumes and green mulching and legumous nurse trees .... and then later designing more permanent guilds around them makes the most sense to me. I want accessibility to the trees and so careful initial placement keeps this as a priority. These trees are key to my fodder and forage management later. I want most of my farm laid down to FoodForest and water. I think FoodForest is the most productive way to produce food sustainably on any land. Sun loving plants will be in edge guilds.

It's very useful in designing the horizon point of a mature forest garden, but the design process and the physical process of planting things don't necessarily have to follow the same course.  I personally don't want to plant a tree knowing that I'm going to remove it later.  I'd rather either plant that tree as a permanent mulcher, or find a smaller herb or shrub that performs the same function but isn't as much of a deal to replace later in the succession.  Just my preference.....trees are a pain to remove if you don't want them there.....

I don't think anyone was talking about removing any trees. Nurse trees are mostly legumous and become permanent mulchers. And are positioned as such, deliberately, in the first stage of design.

I think methods need to match the particular site you're working with. 

The joys of Permaculture. And probably why we keep learning. The site has to be studied.

If you sheet mulch over established perennials with persistent rhizomes, you'll probably be repeating the process in a few years, if not at the end of the season (I speak from experience!).  And if you're dealing with the most persistent of these plants, you run the risk of your desired species not being able to compete very well (or at all), and will require more labor in later years. 

For example (kind of an extreme one but it makes my point):  I interned in a garden that was planted in a burmuda grass live stock pasture.....soooo much needless work because twenty years ago there wasn't anything done in the way of site preparation, and we had to constantly dig the grass from the edges of every single garden bed, all summer long, every single year.  And in the perennial plants, we couldn't get to the grass, so it grew very well in the middle of anything that didn't get turned over annually.  It turned gardening into a battle of the grass.  Not fun! 

I would not do this. Waste of predious time and energy. I would rather deep dig as I have done right down below all perennial rooting ... [I don't have excessivley deep rooted grasses thankfully]..... harvest all rocks and stones for building... and at the bottom of the trench start the lasagna-style layering of composting material. Hard work.... but once-off .... with outstanding results. I am on virgin bushveld and so no pre-agricultural land.

The best sites for forest gardens are often the most neglected ones, the places that need healing. 

Or virgin land.

Spending a few seasons cover cropping, and planting herbs and shrubs before the trees go in will improve the soil dramatically without the laborious process of planting everything in lasagne style mounds (there is also usually the problem of where to get all that biomass for this type of planting).  Though, for some soils that might still be required for good growth. 

As you said previously... the site comes into play here. Good virgin soil is not in desperate need of improvement. The top-soil I am sifting is superb. I have no problem in finding all the bio-mass needed. The problem would be in what to do with it all if I was not prepared to lay it into the beds. I believe this is supreior to composting... where leaching causes some loss in nutrients .... And I want quick succession ... even if it involves hard labour at first. No need to pay gym fees at the moment and lots more than fitness to show for my time. My fitness can be considered as an added sustainable benefit

No need to pay gym fees at the moment and lots more than fitness to show for my time. My fitness can be considered as an added sustainable benefit

100% agreed!  I've said before and I'll say it again that shoveling is the best abdominal conditioning ever! 

I didn't mean to say that anything you've done is wrong (sounds just the opposite of that actually), just pointing out that there are other ways of soil preparation that might be better suited to large (as in several acres) sites.  I'm sure deep digging and layering will create a luscious environment, and I'm glad it's working so well for you.

With many trees, the wait time before true production begins can be as long as thirty years.  I think there can be an impatience in putting trees in the ground, because of the understandable desire to minimize this wait period, but as you've seen the trees at sites with more preparation end up fairing better.  So much better, sometimes, that their higher yields in later years make all the effort in the beginning very worth it. 

I didn't specifically mean to imply that Lawson planted nitrogen fixing trees with the intention of taking them out, but I've seen that suggested as part of a succession senario, and it seems to be extra work - not the point of gardening like a forest, right?  I'd rather plant a tree well and once as well.

Virgin ground.  Where do you live?  What counts as "virgin" ground?  Non-agricultural, non-industrial?  Not obviously touched by human hands? 

marinajade wrote:
Well, does this site have photo hosting or does it need an external host?  This is a link to the set of our farm photos at my flickr account, more than you'd ever care to look at. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fishermansdaughter/sets/72157605315077337/

Wolf, I'd highly recommend buckwheat as a cover crop for warm weather.  They can't handle any kind of frost, but the seeds sprout in 12 hours and have huge flat leaves in their young life - perfect for shading out other things.  If you chop it before they seed all the way they'll accumulate phosophorous in the soil.  They're amazing bee fodder.  And we harvested just some of ours (it grows so fast you can get several crops a summer here) and got 4 gallons of buckwheat seeds, to eat and replant!  Freshly toasted and ground buckwheat pancakes are probably the best thing ever. 
 

Very motivational slide show!  Thank you for sharing.

Do you recall about how much buckwheat you had to plant for that yield?

Thank you, SEFarmer!  We feel that public photos are the best way for us to share what's worked and what hasn't, hopefully others will learn from our mistakes. 

about how much buckwheat you had to plant for that yield?

Probably a pound and a half to two pounds (less than a gallon)?  I over-sowed the first time in the corn, and the plants were too small in many places to really produce good seed, though they made lots of flowers that the bees appreciated.  I used hand broadcasting....a hand held seed broadcasting machine would probably do a more even job. 

Probably a pound and a half to two pounds (less than a gallon)?  I over-sowed the first time in the corn, and the plants were too small in many places to really produce good seed, though they made lots of flowers that the bees appreciated.  I used hand broadcasting....a hand held seed broadcasting machine would probably do a more even job. 

Sounds like it worked out well. 

This may be a bit off topic, but how have you kept the deer and other browsers from taking advantage of your young and tasty fruit trees and other plants?

we're looking at relocating to SW Oregon this year and browsing critters is one of my bigger concerns with getting a new place started.  We've been fortunate to have no deer or rabbit pressure in our current place...

I was really worried about deer mowing everything we tried to plant last spring, but it wasn't much of a problem.  We left for a week in November and our kale got eaten, go figure.  We're surrounded by miles of woods, have a large dog who likes to bark around, and have only been here a year, so there's a chance we might not be "on the map" quite yet.  As of this point we don't actually have any young trees, only really old ones.  Plan to till around with pigs and cover crop for a year before we acquire/plant too many more perennials.