Raw Permies?

Creating this post to see if there are any people out there who eat only raw vegan food, like the 80/10/10 diet, or another variation. Green smoothies, sprouts, nuts seeds, lots of fruit, big salads, etc. I am interested to know where you live, what kind of crops you grow, how you do in the winter, if you use greenhouses-- basically anything! I am not developing my property yet, but I will be beginning summer of 2012. Seems a slim chance, but please respond if you are raw!

Steven

I am interested in knowing this too! We want to go raw, but with our container garden and prices of food right now, it is not totally feasible...yet.

Hi Steven.

I know a raw food Stephen, but you spell it Steven, so I'm assuming you're not him?

Anyway, yes, I follow a 100% low fat raw vegan diet, and have since 2005. My website on eating this way is http://www.raw-food-health.net

I recently completed my PDC, but have no property yet. This is a topic I've given quite a lot of thought to as well.

Are you aware of Frubundance? As there are few raw food permies, the site doesn't have much going on, but you might find it useful: http://frubundance.ning.com/

My experience traveling around southeast Asia and visiting many permie projects in the area is that none even think of fruit as staple food, and even the ones who have food forests aren't really using them in a way that would generate sustainable levels of food. They see fruit as a snack, and continue to import (or in a few cases, grow) rice and beans as staples and use vegetables they grow on site. Tubers, taro, etc, are also big.

This baffles me when there are such abundant possibilities for fruit in this part of the world, but then I probably have an alien mindset after so many years of eating a fruit-based diet.

Since we have Geoff here, he'd be a good person to ask about this.

I talked to one of his former students, who told me when he broached the topic Geoff was dismissive about its nutritional viability, and from a sustainability perspective that he said fruit-based diet "leaves a lot on the table," in terms of ignoring tubers that must be cooked, animal foods, and other unused resources. I believe he had some other reservations, such as that you can't store fruit well (you can dry it, but that's not a great idea for healthy eaters) and other reservations.

I don't know if this is true, of course, but I think I'll ask him in a new thread.

Just posted that here: http://www2.permies.com/t/11305/permaculture/Geoff-Big-Planning-Problems-Raw#103430

I hope you don't mind, but I wanted to maximize the chances of him looking at the question. Feel free to ask your own questions for him in that thread.

"Rustic," I'm happy to see a reply here. Thanks for taking the time.

My name is spelled Steven, and I am not that person you know. I have not been through your website enough to investigate whether you have a permaculture. Where do you live? I'm going through the site you posted. I think I have read some here before. I saw your questions to Geoff, and his brief answer. My climate is *going to be* growing zone 7a. I am looking to find out if there are people living on high fruit diets through not-so-harsh winters, without drying food. It might be okay to fast, eating a lot of greens, for a month or two a year. Maybe a way to schedule a serious fast into the calender. I'm looking for technical information, such as plants grown, what to grow together, etc. I know little.

Thank you, and nice to meet you.

As I said, I don't have a site of my own. I used to live in Connecticut, but now am traveling around Asia. I plan to eventually settle in the southern United States, but don't have an exactly location.

There are copious examples of fruit trees growable in 7A. You've got a pretty nice selection to choose from. You can go to google and try typing in the name of your nearest big city and "fruit trees". That usually turns up something. In that sense, you're not really doing anything special as a raw foodist. General permie fruit growing should provide you with guild examples. Scale is really where the difference comes in.

Personally, I would neither wish to fast for two months every year, nor would it be possible to live off only greens without embracing lots of fat due to their low calories content.

I imagine you'll need to eat some imported fruit or have some really unpleasant months.

Yeah, I suppose I will need to eat some imported fruit. As far as the fasting goes, well, it is possible. I've myself done an extended green juice only fast. Greens themselves would provide even more than juice alone, though I could combine the two. A few people I know have done month long leafy green and vegetable juice fast, and there are many I have read about doing upwards of 90 day green juice only fasts. I remember when I was a child, my mom did a 60 day water only fast. You are right, it would be uncomfortable to be forced to do every year. Hey, I am in South Korea, where are you?

Ah, see I don't consider consuming calories in any form to be fasting. I assumed you meant eating no food and drinking only water. Sort of a different thing, from the perspective of what happens to your body and the energy you have during the period.

I don't doubt you can do it, whether you do juicing or nothing. There are plenty of people who do water-only fasts of more than 30 days.

I'm currently in Chiang Mai, Thailand.

Steven Smallwood wrote:Yeah, I suppose I will need to eat some imported fruit. As far as the fasting goes, well, it is possible. I've myself done an extended green juice only fast. Greens themselves would provide even more than juice alone, though I could combine the two. A few people I know have done month long leafy green and vegetable juice fast, and there are many I have read about doing upwards of 90 day green juice only fasts. I remember when I was a child, my mom did a 60 day water only fast. You are right, it would be uncomfortable to be forced to do every year. Hey, I am in South Korea, where are you?

I said "It might be okay to fast, eating a lot of greens, for a month or two a year," but I should have just left out fast. To me, a fast can be any sustained calorie restriction. Thailand, wow. I've never been there, but on the wall in front of me I'm staring at pictures my fiance took while traveling in Thailand and Laos for 6 months. She loved it there... The only tropical climate I've ever been to is the Philippines. I had a great time though, for two weeks. I was not raw, then, so I took for granted what could have been my heaven. Where are you headed next? How long are you traveling?

EDIT: I don't know why there is some confusion, now pondering this... When you said "Personally, I would neither wish to fast for two months every year, nor would it be possible to live off only greens without embracing lots of fat due to their low calories content," I thought you meant fasting while eating greens was not possible. Now I read it again and think you were talking about two things: fasting and eating only greens. I get it now... And I was talking about one thing, a "greens only fast."

Raw foodies - here? Great!! I am probably about 75% raw, some days 100%. I don't do anything scientific - just too lazy to try to look at calories, carbs, percentages etc.

As for tubers, I do use turnips and sweet potatoes raw, and of course we all use carrots. My completely NOT raw Aunt turned me on to raw turnips - never thought to eat them raw. She grew up on a farm where the four - very young girls - helped out with the farm chores and had to do all of the cooking while my grandpa and grandma where in the fields. She told me they ate a lot of thier breakfast and lunches raw because it was simpley too much work to cook every meal (they also didn't have running water or electricity).

Hello i am thinking of going vegen for almost 2 years now i have been a vegaterian for this time and in my case my schoulders and knees hurt more than they used to i eat fresh fruit and vegetables from my own land no chemicals or artaficial crap so i have started to take supliments but no change !
I dont know i used to eat no vegetables or fruit only meat and carbs so i am realy lost on this subject ?
Does any one have any ideas not enough fruit or not diverse enough ?
Thanks

Danny,

I have two questions - maybe three:

1. Are you eating any wheat or dairy?

2. Are you getting any fat? Such as olive oil or avocados?

3. Are you getting a large amount of Omega 3s? I don't take supplements for that so I have included a link to natural sources of omega 3s. http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000140000000000000000.html

Hi Jeanine thanks for your fast reply il have a look at the site thanks
I eat lots of weat eggs cheese sunflour oil and nuts
the quistion is can you realy get what you need from only vegetables ?
i wil never go back to eating meat the smel even is desturbing to me
But going completely vegen seems very difficult if you work outside long hours !
thanks for your help

Danny,

I have had severe arthritis for about 25 years. Less than a year ago I gave up wheat and dairy. The chronic pain is gone.

Pretty amazing to me. I LOVE LOVE cheese so I do fall off the wagon now and again and eat cheese but it has to be free of added hormones and from sustainably produced milk. When I do eat cheese i pay the price with a little old fashioned arthritis pain.

Getting LOTS of omega 3s seems to help and also lots of anti-inflammatories such as turmeric and licorice root. I make something called golden milk with turmeric, home-made almond milk and raw honey. The licorice root I generally just take in gel cap form.

"the question is can you really get what you need from only vegetables ?"


Not all scientists and doctors agree on the answer to that question so no matter how many "facts" are presented we may never know the answer. Personally I think your best answer lies in how you feel. I believe that we humans don't fit neatly in the omnivore or herbivore category and that our genetic make up may cause us to have different requirements.

As long as you avoid chemicals in your food and feel strong and energized by what you eat, I think you are headed in the right direction.

I also work long hours and coworkers do look at my food as if it came from mars. Todays Breakfast and Lunch when I get to work: Pumpkin seeds, steamed pumpkin, seasoned almonds and cashews, grapefruit and banana, fruit/nut bars (made with pecan/pumpkin/dates/persimmon).

Hi jeanine

I checked out the site it was interesting i think your right about the cheese i have seen documentaries about dairy products and that was one of the reasons to go vegitarian but what is the problem with weat then ?
Your brakfest sounds healthy i to make vegetabel dishes we call it stoofgroente you just put al your vegetables at hand in one pot and slowly simmer for hours and it turns int something between a saus and a soup but i don't go to the store 50 kilometers away to get some bananas or stuf like that
i am still a lazy vegeterian who ownly cooks cheap easy available products
I i wil try to leave cheese then for a month and see from there

Thanks

These folks are raw vegan permaculturists. They have a farm with mature forest gardens and run PDC's among a lot of other things...
http://www.thelivingcentre.com/cms/

Hey I have been vegan for about three years and am doing perfectly fine when it comes to getting all of my nutrients and minerals. I eat more than enough recommended protein, get all of my vitamins, minerals, and fats from eating just fruits, veggies, nuts, and seeds. I actually used to be iron and protein deficient when I was eating a standard american diet. The reason why many people choose to eat a raw vegan diet is the enormous healing benefits and energy that you get as a result. I have gotten rid of my psoriasis, acne, and pms just from changing my diet. My boyfriend used to be severely depressed before he became raw. Although my farm is still in the works, I see no problem with surviving just off my land and still keeping my raw vegan diet.

Danny:

The problem most people have with wheat is that it contains gluten, which comes from the latin word for glue, and it is what binds the wheat together in order to make bread. It is a protein found in some grains. Have you ever taken a small piece of bread and rolled it up into a little ball? Well that is the work of the gluten. For most people it is very difficult to digest and therefore takes a lot of energy, making people feel tired and irritable. It literally gums up their intestines which results in a build up of bad bacteria that can eventually lead to many more health problems. Depending on where you live, gluten may not play a large factor in your wheat. In America gluten is added to many manufactured foods and our wheat is more or less contaminated with undigestable forms of gluten. That is why many Americans have gluten sensitivities. I think that the best way to see if you are affected by gluten is to cut it out of your diet for about two weeks and note how you feel then add it back in slowly and again note how you feel. If you notice any difference in your digestion, skin, or energy you probably have a gluten sensitivity.
You also said that you have had noticed an increase in pain in your shoulders and knees since you have been vegetarian. This might be a result of eating a high-wheat/high-gluten diet. The most noticeable thing that people have told me when they have avoided wheat and gluten in their diets is that they loose weight. People do tend to shed some weight, but the weight is usually not fat, it is the weight of the undigested gluten in your intestines and the inflammation that is a result of that. If your pain is a result of gluten, then it is the inflammation that is caused by the gluten that gives you so much pain.
I hope this helps

Thamks alexa that sounds logical what you said about the intestins my lower intestens hurt so bad sometimes its imberabel i already went to the dokter but the can't see anything with the echo what the use for seeing baby's everybody around me says its becous i don't eat meat there is no understanding for vegetarians here its nice to talk to other vegetarians and vegans i always thought i needed dark bread for fibres but i have to admit i eat more half dark than completely dark bread lately
I am defently going to give it a try thanks for the tip i will let you know if it helps
Thanks

Danny, I also got better by leaving gluten and dairies!
Especially gluten in my case.
If you have gut problems, then sure you have to try this.

Then i found out after years that gluten free was not enough....
And when you have gut problems, sometimes it is useful to give up all grains, even the ones without gluten.
The problem is that there is not much to eat...
In the raw vegan diet, sure there are no grains, as they must be cooked.
Then let's see about sprouted grains...

I have been a lot on a vegan diet, and then yes, meat just feel no more good!
But I decided to go back to it for a moment, look at GAPS diet topic in the food as medicine forum:
https://permies.com/forums/f-99/food-medicine
It is said to be transitional, for the time to heal the guts.
I remind that it indeed took 2 years to heal guts (the time its cells go all new, it is the slowest in all the body to renew)
In the GAPS diet, the bone broth is used to repair the guts.
After solving the problem, also with probiotics and lactofermentation, then vegan can sure be successful, and some people can again stand cereals and dairies!

i also have pains, and vegan gluten free is not enough to cure me.
So I use GAPS and at the same time increase raw food, so that I can give up meat when I get better.
i hope the vegan gluten free will be enough for you, if not, just think that food is medicine and that the first aim is to be efficient and healthy, and that all diet can be changed when the health changes. Its up to you to test.

With one week gluten free, you should see the difference! Well, it was like this for me.

Thanks everybody for all the information
i never thought of gluten being the problem becous i only knew one person who is alergic to them and how she explained it it was a real alergic reaction
I diddn't think you could have bad symptoms from the gluten with out a full alergic reaction
I wil sertanly give it a try

Steven Smallwood wrote:Creating this post to see if there are any people out there who eat only raw vegan food, like the 80/10/10 diet, or another variation. Green smoothies, sprouts, nuts seeds, lots of fruit, big salads, etc. I am interested to know where you live, what kind of crops you grow, how you do in the winter, if you use greenhouses-- basically anything! I am not developing my property yet, but I will be beginning summer of 2012. Seems a slim chance, but please respond if you are raw!

Steven

I am a raw 80/10/10 since 10/28/2011. I was barely ambulatory with osteoarthritis in hips, knees, and ankles with a prediabetic condition and "iffy" blood cholesterol for at least 20-30 years. I was also 205 pounds with the highest point at 235 on a 5'1" height. I started solely on fruit/veg freshly juiced until the beginning of 2012 when I read lots of books and set myself solely on the 80/10/10 diet that Dr. Graham writes about. I also quit all wheat, even whole wheat, after reading the book, "Wheat Belly" where more than indigestion is discussed including wheat's ability to cross the blood brain barrier and dock at the same places that hard drugs prefer to get us high. Wheat also has a higher glycemic level than white sugar. In about January or February I switched to fruitarian with vegetables. I live in Central Texas bordering the desert. I am able to grow greens year round as well as other vegetables in the non-freezing growing times. One year the weather was frozen for 24 hours for 7 days. I had lots of winter plants like kale and swiss chard. It looked like they were all dead. However, I pulled off the dead leaves and found a green core and the plants resumed their growth. As an experiment, I left one of them covered with the dead leaves--it never regenerated. So I learned to always check the core of a plant before deciding it was dead. Apparently sunlight is the main survival factor.

At any rate, I am now 128 pounds, just 8 pounds short of my goal. I buy a case of bananas and that lasts me about 9 days. I also have laid in a supply of peeled frozen bananas in case of need. I use the frozen bananas in smoothies, usually for breakfast with greens from my garden. This year late summer had just about everything dead except for the weeds. The garden plants were stressed by the heat in the 100+ deg F. The weeds didn't seem to notice so I made my banana-based smoothies with pigweed (an amaranth), lamb's quarters, or purslane. I also used dill because it thinks it is a weed! There were strange new insects this year including Mexican General grasshoppers and a silver-type beetle that wiped out the swiss chard unless I spent several hours a day squashing them. They got almost all of my swiss chard, which normally grows year-round, even in the heat, with no problems. We definitely are in a changing environment with the heat.

Now I have normal blood sugars and I am no longer prediabetic and my blood chemistries are completely normal. I eat only raw fruit/vegies except for one meal a day of cooked beans. I just love beans and due to my old age, 68, I figure I can allow myself a little leeway to desire. Beans have good nutrition as well, even cooked. I also tell myself I can't afford the needed calories from fruit until I produce more of my own.

I no longer have any osteoarthritis and from barely walking I stride! I work all day on my huge growing area with hand tools. I will be building lots of hugelkultur on top of solid bedrock. I found that most of this growing area I have is highly mineralized, heavy clay soil, seemingly 25% soil and 75% rock. The soil holds water very well. I thought it was the clay content, but I am beginning to believe it is the solid bedrock that is holding the soil moisture. The bedrock is mostly covered with at least 2 to 4 inches and very deep in other places, as much as 4 feet deep.

This year with a nice rainfall at the right time and watering the tree with all my dishwater I had a huge crop of figs. So I intend to plant lots of fig trees for the calories that this way of eating needs. It has taken that fig tree 5 years to get this productive with being set back a few times to nothing from freezing. It always recovers. I am interested to see this year if it will freeze back to nothing or have evolved enough to adjust to this climate zone. Perhaps it is the USDA's plant hardiness zone changed to 8A. It is growing out of my reaching height--it is at least 10 feet tall now. I don't know whether to cut off the top or leave that for the birds. All suggestions are appreciated.

I am so glad to find other vegans here. I don't have much in common with traditional in that only 10% of my daily calories comes from fat. I am sticking to that because I do believe fat is the enemy--any kind of fat, especially extracted oils or fats, whether animal, fruit, grain, or vegetable. I don't really miss the fat--I miss the salt the most as salting is not recommended and I know the ratio between potassium and sodium is important. I cannot understand where sodium comes from in this mindset. I cheat with the beans even more by adding salt! Any information on the potassium/sodium ratio in diet would also be appreciated.

What convinced me about the fat is the fact that medical science all agrees that fat starts coating the circulatory vessels eventually plugging it up completely and causing heart attacks or strokes. Dr. Graham points out that insulin is the helper to get the body's energy source, blood sugar, into the cell. With the vessel coated with fat, the insulin can't get through. The cell screams for nutrition, the brain thinks well it needs more insulin, and eventually the insulin-producing gland collapses. Hence we think insulin is the problem. The problem is the fat-lined arterial system. The cure is eliminating the fat in the arterial system, not only to prevent heart attacks or strokes but to prevent diabetes. It worked for me. I have so much energy now and I think more clearly and rapidly.

The fun part is when I go to the grocery store. The only aisles I frequent are the produce aisles and the dried bean aisles.

Carol, thanks so much for sharing your story. I too have seen an amazing improvement when I eat raw. And yes, it does make shopping go a lot quicker!!

Thanks Carol, great!

I think it is difficult to generalize about FATS.
Remember you lived on your reserves. I eat a lot with no problem.

What convinced me about the fat is the fact that medical science all agrees that fat starts coating the circulatory vessels eventually plugging it up completely and causing heart attacks or strokes.

They do not all agree, especially about the origin of fat deposit, cholesterol and heart problems, as the problem can be the sugar one eat and not the fat.
In your case, as in mine I think, our source of sugar is fruit, and then this is not a problem, as we eat whole fruits. But I try not to eat any fruit without nuts or coconut oil.

I agree with beans, and for example lima beans are part of the GAPS diet. (not vegan but worth knowing) White beans and lima beans are given as very digestible. Also, I suppose you soak and rinse them at least (I begin the sprouting before I cook them).