Horrors of sheet mulching

The problem is the solution, right? Bon appetit!:

http://feralfood.blogspot.com/2009/12/for-sarah-and-anybody-else-who-is.html

The topic of eating slugs has even come up here on Permies:

https://permies.com/t/8642/cascadia/Slugs-food-humans

Shawn Harper wrote:

Travis Schultz wrote:Where does the breeding carnivorous slug idea come from? Is there any actual success somewhere with this? Because taking a slug that is sucking the juices out of a snipped in half slug, then somehow breeding it to attack and kill slugs seems far-fetched. Like the mouthparts of a slug take a long time to saw through plant matter, how long is it going to take saw through another slug? And wouldn't the other slug being gnawwed on just try to get away? I would think if that were a possibility, it would be a only much larger slug could eat a much smaller slug because it would be a very slow death.

Well I just am taking my basic knowledge of genetics and applying it to slugs. If there is a trait you want in a given population do what you can to favor that trait. Some slugs are carnivore. I like the slugs that choose to eat other slugs. I don't really have slug problems IMO, I just plant thick and let what few slugs I have weed out the weaker plants(normally slower growing or sickly/wrong season). All my plantings are poly culture, heavily mulched in the rainy PNW. I am sure this would not work for those that don't have native predatory slugs like we do.

Permaculture site talking about predatory slugs and snails

I left 1 link for you to check out, a quick google search for "predatory slugs in YOURSTATE" should help you out too.

I will happily leave the slug geneticist entrepreneurship to you.


Also just an update, drastic reduction in slug population just by snipping them, I didn't even go hunting last night and it rained all day but I have very little damage overnight. Hand picking is still in my head the most SENSIBLE means of dealing with this. Unless of course the nematoads thing works out, then I'm just going to breed them in a bucket or my compost tea and let the balance take over on the micro level which is where we should be starting anyway.

Travis Schultz wrote:Please post some pictures of your bathtub gardens man. I'm sure it could be on the cover of my redneck gardens book that I'm writing lol I'd love to see it.

Linda Secker wrote:Yeah I wanna see the bathtub gardens too!! Our allotment committee would hate it I am sure :P

I'll see if I can dig up some photos...they've just been planted this year so don't look like much yet. I made real sure when buying the place that there are no dumbass restrictive covenants regarding such longstanding Alaskan traditions as junk cars and bathtubs in the yard. I've toyed with the idea of toilets too; they're sized perfectly for a big zucchini plant! But tubs are awesome--free at the transfer site (affectionately known around here as "the borough mall"--borough=county in Alaska), don't rot, built in drain hole, and available in all kinds of designer colors. I've got white, green, pink, yellow, beige, and blue so far. The cast iron ones are a bitch to haul in, but they'll outlast me, no doubt. I just got two more of those that are waiting to be emplaced. A few years ago a big old apartment building here (hundreds of units) was torn down, and I'm still kicking myself for not approaching the crew to obtain tub salvage privileges--I could have had a tub empire!

Travis Schultz wrote:Also just an update, drastic reduction in slug population just by snipping them, I didn't even go hunting last night and it rained all day but I have very little damage overnight. Hand picking is still in my head the most SENSIBLE means of dealing with this. Unless of course the nematoads thing works out, then I'm just going to breed them in a bucket or my compost tea and let the balance take over on the micro level which is where we should be starting anyway.

When we lived near Tacoma, the slugs were horrifying--four or five inch long eating machines. I found that after a few days of collecting them by hand (often using the killed ones as bait), the problem virtually resolved. But we only had a small garden patch, so it was pretty doable.

Limax maximus (AKA Big Slime Max slug) is indeed a slug which is nasty to others, but they are more voracious on plants than others as well. In the 4 years I have gardened here at Julie's Farm, they are the most numerous slug remaining- maybe my increased Gardener Snake population is doing their job? I bet it's the snakes and the beetles. I have for sure, more than once, seen slugs eating dead slugs. I think most slugs are opportunistic cannibals. I doubt they learn to prefer chasing their own. I mean, they're hermaphrodites, right? So make love not war is possible with any of their own they meet. What would you do? (given that in a garden it's not a starvation situation, eh?)
I have always seen that my chickens will eat slugs most avidly at breakfast, as soon as they are let out. Later in the day they prefer about anything else. They do like Limax gigas (same as maximus I believe) best of the slugs they have available. Currently I do not have my own chickens, so I collect the gastropods (snails and slugs, now I have mostly the former) and take them to Tadpole Manor for the resident chickens there. I keep them in "snail jails" in the fridge so they can chill until I head for Tadpole Manor, which entertains guests looking in my fridge for a snack for sure. Sometimes if it's sunny I get lazy and toss the snails onto the asphalt where they quickly turn to jerky. The local crows know, and they don't stay there long. On my 1/2 acre at Julie's farm I can generally any morning get a pound(+-) on slug patrol. That's pretty good protein rations for the chooks. Snails have the calcium needed by the birds for egg production too, but they don't seem to prefer one over the other.
Travis: Are you doing other habitat things as well as mulch? Have you found a way to attract slugs to a spot to park for the day and get impounded? (for failure to pay parking fees) Do you have beetle banks or anything similar?

Victor,

This is tangential to the original topic at best, but:
Are you aware of the research that many (probably most) cast iron bathtubs have lead in them that leaches out?

I hate to rain on peoples' parades, but as a parent who had to deal with de-leading an old house, I want others to be aware of the hazards that are out there. Lead is in more stuff than you'd think, and far more than it should be.

If you don't live in an area with real acidic rain, and have soil with a pH of 4.6 or higher, the lead shouldn't be a problem according to Geoff lawton, as above 4.5 it is not water soluble. The plant won't move lead through its body or anything either. Not for the purist out there, but that's what Geoff says.

Travis Schultz wrote:If you don't live in an area with real acidic rain, and have soil with a pH of 4.6 or higher, the lead shouldn't be a problem according to Geoff lawton, as above 4.5 it is not water soluble. The plant won't move lead through its body or anything either. Not for the purist out there, but that's what Geoff says.

I hope that's true, but lead in bathtubs has been an issue for kids - and city water isn't usually terribly acidic. I don't know for sure, but I figured it was worth giving a head's-up.

Rick Valley wrote:Limax maximus (AKA Big Slime Max slug) is indeed a slug which is nasty to others, but they are more voracious on plants than others as well. In the 4 years I have gardened here at Julie's Farm, they are the most numerous slug remaining- maybe my increased Gardener Snake population is doing their job? I bet it's the snakes and the beetles. I have for sure, more than once, seen slugs eating dead slugs. I think most slugs are opportunistic cannibals. I doubt they learn to prefer chasing their own. I mean, they're hermaphrodites, right? So make love not war is possible with any of their own they meet. What would you do? (given that in a garden it's not a starvation situation, eh?)
I have always seen that my chickens will eat slugs most avidly at breakfast, as soon as they are let out. Later in the day they prefer about anything else. They do like Limax gigas (same as maximus I believe) best of the slugs they have available. Currently I do not have my own chickens, so I collect the gastropods (snails and slugs, now I have mostly the former) and take them to Tadpole Manor for the resident chickens there. I keep them in "snail jails" in the fridge so they can chill until I head for Tadpole Manor, which entertains guests looking in my fridge for a snack for sure. Sometimes if it's sunny I get lazy and toss the snails onto the asphalt where they quickly turn to jerky. The local crows know, and they don't stay there long. On my 1/2 acre at Julie's farm I can generally any morning get a pound(+-) on slug patrol. That's pretty good protein rations for the chooks. Snails have the calcium needed by the birds for egg production too, but they don't seem to prefer one over the other.
Travis: Are you doing other habitat things as well as mulch? Have you found a way to attract slugs to a spot to park for the day and get impounded? (for failure to pay parking fees) Do you have beetle banks or anything similar?

Iv tried the boards, only a couple under them. With all the mulch to hide in they don't care about the boards or tarps.

If you don't mind you could explain the beetle bank, and do you have real experience with them and if so how much?

Steven Kovacs wrote:Victor,

This is tangential to the original topic at best, but:
Are you aware of the research that many (probably most) cast iron bathtubs have lead in them that leaches out?

I hate to rain on peoples' parades, but as a parent who had to deal with de-leading an old house, I want others to be aware of the hazards that are out there. Lead is in more stuff than you'd think, and far more than it should be.

No, but thanks for the heads-up; I'll have to get a testing kit and check mine out. I've already done one round of heavy metals chelation myself and would prefer to stay clean.

In my experience, ducks would rather stick pins in their eyes than mess with a slug. Snails they will eat, but only up to a point.

Sprinkling wood ash across the veg patch would despatch thousands of slimy critters in the time it takes to snip a few hundred in half. Plus add potash fertiliser to your veg.

Matured gazunder juice (urine) is absolutely deadly on slugs. Obviously you cannot go sprinkling golden rain on crops for sale to other people. But if you can provide some slug habitat, like a few long wet planks lying along soggy pathways, then lift up and sprinkle several 100's - 1,000's at a time, you have to be diminishing the population fast. They will turn white, and shrivel up as they die in agony, fast.

A more socially acceptable alternative for mass slugicide is the application of the slug nematode, Phasmarhabditis hermaphrodita. This is living organism which kills any slugs it infests and is harmless to other life. You buy these granules, add water, and sprinkle over the whole area. The nematodes infest the slugs which die, the nematodes breed up and continue working until there are no more slugs to inhabit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasmarhabditis_hermaphrodita

Ruby Gray wrote:In my experience, ducks would rather stick pins in their eyes than mess with a slug. Snails they will eat, but only up to a point.

Sprinkling wood ash across the veg patch would despatch thousands of slimy critters in the time it takes to snip a few hundred in half. Plus add potash fertiliser to your veg.

Matured gazunder juice (urine) is absolutely deadly on slugs. Obviously you cannot go sprinkling golden rain on crops for sale to other people. But if you can provide some slug habitat, like a few long wet planks lying along soggy pathways, then lift up and sprinkle several 100's - 1,000's at a time, you have to be diminishing the population fast. They will turn white, and shrivel up as they die in agony, fast.

A more socially acceptable alternative for mass slugicide is the application of the slug nematode, Phasmarhabditis hermaphrodita. This is living organism which kills any slugs it infests and is harmless to other life. You buy these granules, add water, and sprinkle over the whole area. The nematodes infest the slugs which die, the nematodes breed up and continue working until there are no more slugs to inhabit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasmarhabditis_hermaphrodita

I am capturing and breeding out nematoads as we speak. Hopefully it works.

Predatory beetles are major garden and crop allies. These coleopterans are hunters and move fast, and are mostly nocturnal- they need loose veg shelter during the day. Some also prefer to be up and above, even a little: when you're small, microclimates are important, eh?
The state of the art in beneficial insect habitat needs and solutions for meeting these needs in agricultural situations are set forth in a couple of recent books from the Xerces Society (founded by naturalist & butterfly guy Robert Michael Pyle for invertebrate conservation, named in honor of the Xerces Blue, a tiny butterfly extinct due to urbanization around San Francisco) Farming With Beneficial Insects and Attracting Native Pollenators are the titles. Both are full of ideas for how to attract help in your garden and make a difference with your garden- you might even prevent an extinction. The target market is farmers, but garbeners can use the technique too. The term "beetle bank" is from a friend in Corvallis, Gwendolyn Bane, who worked it out for encouraging beetles on organic farms. Having a raised mound helps keep people and vehicles especially from disturbing the habitat of native bunch grasses. Carabid beetles think slug eggs are caviar. I may have a small piece on Madia (tarweed-an annual yellow composite) which ends with speculating on native plant habitats for beneficials that could also be harvested/gathered from, as part of an inner zones design in the next Permaculture Magazine N. Am.

So a beetle box is a dirt mound planted with tall grasses then?

Travis Schultz wrote:

I am capturing and breeding out nematoads as we speak. Hopefully it works.

"Nematoads"? Perhaps you are referring to those pimply froggy toads? They are indeed reputed to eat slugs indiscriminately, and would be a great asset in a slug-challenged garden.
I am having trouble understanding how you could be "capturing and breeding out" nematodes, which are microscopic creatures invisible to the naked eye, whose natural environment is the body of a slug.
You would need to purchase the commercial preparation of millions of live nematodes contained in a clay base, which is emulsified in water, diluted and sprayed over the garden area.

I don't think height is important with the grasses, but a bunch grass style of growth is- the dense clump growth habit, as opposed to runner grasses which just spread everywhere. This leaves space between grass clumps. Usually people plant additional native flowering plants between the bunch grasses. The book Farming With Beneficial Insects has typical species lists for each major climate area of the USA, for the primary habitat scenarios they suggest- hedgerows, riparian strips, etc. I think it would also be possible to add known plants of ethnobotanical importance- medicine and wild food/seeds etc. and have additional yields. Wild foods are quite high in nutrition compared to crop plants, generally, although lower in yield.

Ruby Gray wrote:

Travis Schultz wrote:

I am capturing and breeding out nematoads as we speak. Hopefully it works.

"Nematoads"? Perhaps you are referring to those pimply froggy toads? They are indeed reputed to eat slugs indiscriminately, and would be a great asset in a slug-challenged garden.
I am having trouble understanding how you could be "capturing and breeding out" nematodes, which are microscopic creatures invisible to the naked eye, whose natural environment is the body of a slug.
You would need to purchase the commercial preparation of millions of live nematodes contained in a clay base, which is emulsified in water, diluted and sprayed over the garden area.

Are you or anyone actually reading this thread?? Please scroll back a page or two for a video and your answer of how to capture wild strains of nematoads. And no not talking about amphibians or commercially bought strains...

I just think so many people want to hear themselves or be the ones with the grand answer that solves everyone's problems, hence the reason for this thread. If most of you would actually read maybe half of this thread you would realize 90% of the responses are just repeated answers and questions.

Not sure how far or what all was added after first page. Short on time, need to get to work.

Sea Shells ground up like something we use like ostler shells

Some types of beer work better then others.

Vinegar

AG lime to dust

Burn wood ash. Don't let get wet.


All I can think of got to run.

Teddy

I wonder if what's happening, is that people start reading my first post on this thread, and when they reach the part that says voles and slugs, they assume this thread is a cry for help with a pest problem (it's not). They skip to the end to share their opinions without reading to see if 10 other people have suggested the same thing.

Keep in mind, the "beetle box" and the nematoads are the only 2 things that aren't on the list of slug defenses your going to find by doing a Google search and clicking on the first link that pops up. Even if i think beetle box is a silly and misleading name to a riparian strip of ornamental grasses, I still understand how and why it works. so thank you for sharing your expertise, all of you that have.


I'm all for the spread of good information, but laziness has, and always will, piss me off. So when people express laziness by adding the same information to a thread 5 times, it erks me.

Paul has been asking those of us out there really doing the real work and starting farms and building soil and biodiversity to get on permies and share it, because for every thousand people who are posting about it, 1 person is actually doing it. It's stressful and takes away from my farm work and making money, and it's hard to keep doing it when nobody seems to actually care beyond being the person whose got the right or the best answer.

Paul if your reading this, let me know when you want to do a podcast about quitting the rat race, building tiny homes, biointensive, starting a spin farming business and csa, and doing all of this without money or savings, while being trapped in a mortgage. I have a good story, and it motivates people when they hear about it.

I wonder if what's happening, is that people start reading my first post on this thread, and when they reach the part that says voles and slugs, they assume this thread is a cry for help with a pest problem (it's not).

Travis, maybe a new title would help...something that might better reflect your intent for the thread?

Hey Ted, I did not write that post in response to yours, you just posted that in the time it took me to write it.

Judith Browning wrote:

I wonder if what's happening, is that people start reading my first post on this thread, and when they reach the part that says voles and slugs, they assume this thread is a cry for help with a pest problem (it's not).

Travis, maybe a new title would help...something that might better reflect your intent for the thread?

In my opinion, the problem isn't the title of the thread, it's exactly what Travis pointed out in his post. People don't read the thread, so they don't know what it's about, and then they answer anyway. Add my name after Travis on the list of people annoyed by posters that don't have time to read a thread, but they have time to reply to it.

My intent is clear, and the title I feel is fitting. In no way is the title or first post asking for slug and vole help, that's already very well documented on permies and elsewhere.

Either way, I just want people to read a thread before posting the same things over and over. It doesn't do any good for site visitors reading the thread to just be reading 4 pages of the same 5 or so tactics, there are a ton of threads all over permies just like that. And frankly speaking I expect better from a community of permaculture folk. But maybe I shouldn't? Maybe it's my problem? Lol it wouldn't be the first time I didn't agree with the masses.


I'd take 10, 2 page threads full of real solid information than 100, 4 page threads of repeatable topics and subject matter. Way less time consuming to the readers and that means more time growing food and building soil.

I have had to repeat so much info because people are posting before reading. So I am sorry I am at my wit's end here and now ranting about it lol.

To me, this seems to be the topic:

Travis Schultz wrote:Everybody needs to find what works for them, in their climate and in their situation.

That even widely-promoted techniques may not work for everyone, or may even horribly backfire.

Is this indeed what you're trying to discuss, Travis?

As I put it clearly in more than a dozen posts in this thread, most undoubtedly YES.

I have been a proponent of "finding what works for you" for several years now ever since I first had a fellow gardener try telling me a I was a fool for not doing things his way.

And never have I seen a situation like permies here that those words have ever been more clear. Find what works for you should be the living breathing dominant thought in every person alive today, especially in the internet world. Innovation in my country is dead, because of this disease that's taken over everyone where if you read or hear something on the internet than it must be true, and if you believe than you must convince everyone else you found "the way". Find your own way! Because there will always be a major portion of the population who will never find their own way, only walk the paths of others.

It's the human condition. The driving force behind all religious beliefs. That you must convince others to do things your way because it further strengthens you own beliefs that what your doing is right, and that you yourself are better than someone else. When each and every one of us have millions of variables within our gardens or within our own personal lives, our skill sets and what we want out of something.

What has this thread taught me? It's taught me that everyone thinks that just because paul is a permies purist, so must be everyone else. But! Paul has his intentions and end goals in mind, to build a permaculture farm, the permaculture way. This does not mean that all of you will have to do it his way. On the small scale, and on the intensive farm, we are teaching our community that you can grow an insane amount of food in a insanely small space. we don't have tracts of hundreds or thousands of acres in our city, we have small lots, where people don't have the ability to plant hundreds of species of perennials plants and trees, rather we can plant hundreds of varieties of annuals and some perennials. We use every square foot of space, so this means that if I want to sacrifice a 100 sq ft bed for the reason of planting ornamental grasses (which are growing all over the place already) I could be losing out on $900 of ground cherries from that same space.

Your system is your system, share it with everyone but force it on none.

I think that it is important to keep permaculture from becoming a cult of a few particular techniques; wood chip sheet mulching, hugelkultures, herb spirals, and Eastern USA style forest gardens. I gave up on sheet mulching with wood chips when it didn't work for me, I mostly gave up on hugelkultures because they were so much work for little noticeable benefit, I think herb spirals are goofy looking, and I don't live in the Eastern USA, so my food forest will be quite different.

It all depends on where you are, and even more, on what you are trying to accomplish!

Travis is growing vegetables at a large scale. I'm growing vegetables at a fairly large scale, 1/2 of an acre. Like him, I found that the techniques most people think of as
"permaculture" are too much work/ don't work in that context. So on my community farm, I grow things one way.

At my home garden, it is very "permaculturey" with rock walls, sun traps, little sunken beds, keyhole paths, guilds, and berms of weird perennials; eventually there will be hazelnut hedge-lines, a biofiltered duck pond, espeliared trees, and a grape arbor protecting tender plants underneath.

That is because my goal on the farm is to raise large amounts of produce utilizing an untrained workforce, and teach people the basics of raising food; at my home, I want an interesting setting that still produces food, while allowing me to experiment and keep the neighbors happy.

Gil, right on man. The food forest purist permies model is very difficult to get workers on without being skilled. And what I am doing is way easier to have workers do things the right way, but it's still so much more difficult than a row garden for most people. I am also leasing the land, saving my money to buy a 10 acre lot or so, so it makes no sense to me to invest so much time into permanent structure when a developer is going to put a neighborhood where my farm is as soon as I leave. This is not a theory this is fact, and if I don't leave within 10 years I will be kicked out.

So my goal is to get this garden to pay my living costs, while my day job builds the bank account up. So that in 5 or 6 years I can own land debt free and have already done a lot of the experimental part of learning to farm. At that point I can do ponds, swales, and build a food forest ( I am in Michigan). But on 2 tenths of an acre I can make enough money to be happy so my other 9.8 acres can be my sustainable paradise.

Thought I would also share this. 5 years ago when I was just starting out and had been a troll on permies for a couple years, I thought I had to follow lawton, wheaton, mollison, and shephard permaculture techniques to a T. But over the years just learned what works and fits in my system and my goals.

Now I am the owner of Great Lakes Permadynamics, and we are making a name for ourselves and teaching not only the community but other community farms and gardens how to better run their own systems. Not by telling them to do it like us, but by motivating them to be true entrepreneurs and start finding what works best for them.

Gilbert Fritz wrote:I think that it is important to keep permaculture from becoming a cult of a few particular techniques

I think the "cult of techniques" actually misses the main point of permaculture as a system of design. Permaculture, as I understand it, is not specific techniques, but rather a system of design within which appropriate techniques are applied.

I know I've bitched about it before, but I see such a focus on techniques here on permies that the design part seems to often get lost. I hope if people become interested in specific techniques such as mulching or hugelkultur, they will go on to learn how to apply those, if appropriate, within a system design.

My own permaculture system is made up of intensive annual vegetable growing (modified Biointensive), aquaponics, and more extensive techniques including growing native food plants in a "like wild" setting. None of these specific techniques make it permaculture, in my mind, but their relation to each other and their appropriateness to the climate and other factors, are what make them permacultural.

Travis Schultz wrote:Thought I would also share this. 5 years ago when I was just starting out and had been a troll on permies for a couple years, I thought I had to follow lawton, wheaton, mollison, and shephard permaculture techniques to a T. But over the years just learned what works and fits in my system and my goals.

Now I am the owner of Great Lakes Permadynamics, and we are making a name for ourselves and teaching not only the community but other community farms and gardens how to better run their own systems. Not by telling them to do it like us, but by motivating them to be true entrepreneurs and start finding what works best for them.

Travis I want to say thanks for all the work you do. I am currently 2 years behind you on a similar path. Next year when my lease ends I hope to build a tiny house, then the following year get (lease or buy) a bigger chunk of land that I can work with than what I have now. Your posts are super encouraging, don't let the slackers get you down. I agree, finding what works for you is best. I use slugs because in my area fighting them is a losing battle and I would rather find an equilibrium. That said I doubt it would work for most other people, certainly not those seeking to market garden in a small area with the 50% losses I accept as normal. It works for me in my situation, but I did it by doing exactly what you said. Taking the ideals and ideas and mixing them in a way that works sustainably in my climate and conditions. However without those like you, Joseph, Randson, Tyler, Walter, and countless others I would not be where I am today. I am glad you brought up this point, and I hope you find the balance of tricks from the permaculture toolbox that work for you and continue to share to help the rest of us on our parallel paths to sustainability.

Thanks, Shawn. I appreciate the kind words. Work hard and try your best and you can't fail. But it's easy to trick yourself into thinking your doing your best, I'm my own worst enemy..

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Gilbert Fritz wrote:I think that it is important to keep permaculture from becoming a cult of a few particular techniques

I think the "cult of techniques" actually misses the main point of permaculture as a system of design. Permaculture, as I understand it, is not specific techniques, but rather a system of design within which appropriate techniques are applied.

I know I've bitched about it before, but I see such a focus on techniques here on permies that the design part seems to often get lost. I hope if people become interested in specific techniques such as mulching or hugelkultur, they will go on to learn how to apply those, if appropriate, within a system design.

My own permaculture system is made up of intensive annual vegetable growing (modified Biointensive), aquaponics, and more extensive techniques including growing native food plants in a "like wild" setting. None of these specific techniques make it permaculture, in my mind, but their relation to each other and their appropriateness to the climate and other factors, are what make them permacultural.

Tyler, our systems are very similar. And you always say it best, your a very intelligent person and have a reserved way of looking into things. Patients is truly a virtue.

I gotta say there's a mess of y'all on this thread who get it for real. And because I'm an odd duck, I'm also getting a kick out of thinking about "ostler shells" vs oyster shells, "beetle boxes" vs beetle banks, and finding Nemo the Toad vs nematodes. The things that spell check likes just fine. Travis, I think "permadynamics" is a most excellent word, thank you for that. I am myself trying to play the hand dealt me in life & death, and hoping to scrape up the $ to visit family around Kalamazoo end of July, see an old friend on the Ohio who finally escaped Philly where he had been shipwrecked, who has MS, and my remaining brother near Dayton. So although I'm in W. Oregon, I have some deep roots around the inland seas and big rivers, where the mountains aren't. Have you ever checked out Hidden Savannah Nursery near KZoo? I hope to check out what they have going on if I can visit.
I ask people not to give up on Huegel Kulture (I don't know the keystroke for an umlaut, so I used the "ue" eh?) The original version I learned has little resemblance to Sepp's type, which looks too much to me like an effing gopher condo and Armenian blackberry reserve (A.B. is the multiflora rose of the Northwest, only it spreads even faster by bird and actively tip roots) I have tried a dozen different sorts that do a fine job, a good way to get prunings gone in a useful way. Good gardiner snake habitat. And altho I think ornery mental grasses (of the bunch type) probably have ecological habitat value, I am exploring the native grasses where I am and where I work (which ranges across states and national boundaries- I'm a free range permie) Hence my interest in Hidden Savanna. My long time yoga is to not use infernal combustion engines in my farming, although I do have road machines. (and bicycles) I work my 1/2 acre with mostly tools from Easy Digging and Earth Tools, a plethora of Austrian and Japanese blades and saws, and tools I've packed back from other countries. And I recently discovered, talking with Andrew Millison, that we both achieved a permaculture grail this year: we can now pee in our front yards without the neighbors knowing. (I moved here in a trailer in 2012)

Thank you, Travis. I'm a slow learner with a black thumb, so I figure if I can do permaculture, almost anyone can. Mostly I want to help people avoid making all the mistakes I've made, the biggest of which was trying techniques without regard to how they relate in a system.

In what is a perhaps an unintended consequence of this thread, I am reminding myself to include phrases that specify what I do that works "for me in my conditions" I do try to at least be clear where I have a personal bias towards a technique that it might not give the same results in other conditions.

I might be the one who started the conversation onto slug remedies by asking about reptile habitat. Sorry.

Casie Becker wrote:In what is a perhaps an unintended consequence of this thread, I am reminding myself to include phrases that specify what I do that works "for me in my conditions" I do try to at least be clear where I have a personal bias towards a technique that it might not give the same results in other conditions.

I might be the one who started the conversation onto slug remedies by asking about reptile habitat. Sorry.

I think we all forget this perspective from time to time Casie. Try not to beat yourself up about it. It is a good reminder though.