Formal vs. informal education (especially in terms of $)

I have asked basically this same question on this board before, but here I am a semester later, and questioning my path yet again.

Obviously, depending on what one wants to do, a formal degree may be necessary. For me, I've been interested in becoming a landscape architect, and as such, just started a LA program this past semester. Well, it's not going as well as I had hoped, not because I'm not able to learn the stuff, but because I just haven't been able to focus enough to do the work. I've been distracted by finding work, and now that I've found a job, working, planning and planting gardens, and reading on my own time. It seems like the answer for me here is clear, that I should just quit school, learn on my own, take a PDC, and go for the homesteading/part time designing path, and leave the landscape architecture for those who are more focused and able to deal with bureaucracy than I.

My overarching question that I'm pointing to here is, in the end, which path is generally more successful in terms of making money, getting a college degree and trying to apply permaculture from that angle, or foregoing the debt (I already have 20k+ because of a previous aborted music education career path...), or simply working, saving, learning on your own, and building your business from that knowledge and experience. I know that some of the most successful people in the world dropped out of college, and even high school. Some of the greatest inventions/companies came from college drop outs, including facebook and apple.

So what is everyone's thoughts on this? Should I follow the marc zuckerburg and bill gates of the world, or should I keep at it and try to finish, even if it's a liberal arts degree or an associates from a community college. I've got to be close to something by now, but I'm not sure if I would even really benefit from it in the end, compared to studying at my own pace and working/saving. As my brother said to me, who recently finished a computer science associates degree, which he paid for with his own money he earned while working, he thinks of it as what he could be doing instead, such as working, getting experience, and saving, as opposed to being busy all the time while hemoraging money on supplies, transportation, books, and accumulating debt. This sounds like sound advice to me. What do you think?

Forgot to mention an alternative I recently found, that could be a much better option. Check it out:

http://www.ztcollege.com/book/

Having spent 20 years teaching at University I would say don't bother with the degree unless you are really committed to it as otherwise you won't give it your best shot.

Rob, I saw your first posting of this question and I bit my tongue and didn't reply. So here goes.

About half a dozen years ago a change to the student loans was buried in another unrelated bill that made it impossible to clear student debt through bankruptcy (a gift to the bankers). If you don't want to be forced to work just to service this debt don't accumulate any more and work to get rid of that which you already have.

I've made a lot of money in the last 20 years riding every economic bubble (tech, housing and the latest equity one), and gotten out before they burst. Since last December I am in cash only. That's how confident I am in the present situation. One can never be sure the things that worked last time around will be the same that work the next time.

If you are truly a self learner, as I am, you do not need a university degree to succeed, just a good attitude and work ethic. Work, live frugally, pay down that loan, save your pennies and soon enough you can buy some land (I'm convinced prices have a way to fall yet). By that time you will have all the book learning you need to make a go on your own.

Good luck. I cannot tell you how grateful I am that I was born in a time of plenty that I was able to do what I did. I really fear for your generation.

i find that the informal path tends to help you think outside of the modern mono-thought culture. where everything must be the same, done the same way and so on. when you learn the same skills outside that mindset you are more open to new ideas, new thoughts, and in turn have a whole different perspective on things.

i traveled this path and can say without a doubt it was better for me, I have people coming and looking to me for landscape/permaculture work because of this outside the modern mindset path i have taken. Though i cant say that it is not for everyone. Some people really struggle when set upon a path where there is a lot of trial and error and learning to be done without someone telling you step by step what to do and say.

I am about to graduate with a degree in sculpture, and art is something I have been/am very passionate about. I have been very grateful for all the skills and techniques I have learned, however I still feel burdened by school. You end up paying a lot of money to do what is often meaningless busy work. The schools all require you to take their pre determined program of classes along with whatever you are actually interested in. In the last few years that I have turned to farming/permaculture, I feel that school holds me back, in more ways than just finances. My advice: stop throwing your money away and get out there and get some real experience. There are tons of people out there who are doing what you want to do and succeeding at it. Search out those people, and offer yourself up as a willing learner and helper. For me there is no teacher like someone doing it for a living, for the love of doing it, not bound by anyones requirements or curriculum. I may just be being a bum, but in my final weeks I feel particularly weighted by my school requirements, I have to much else to do of my own design. Don't get stuck! Get out there now and learn while you earn, instead of getting into more debt.

Jocelyn and I recorded a podcast about this today. But it could be a while until it is uploaded.

Just as any other habit - you will need a means to support your permaculture habit. Do you have the investment capital and time to build your system? Do you have the means to afford the time to build it ? Then does a straight job become necessary and what is better - Low pay or Higher ? I am a Registered Nurse getting started on a Homestead that will one day provide me with the means to not have to work so much and put more into my fauna , flora , and home. If I was a younger man , less in debt , and without others who depend on me for sustinence I would find it easier to tough it out , like any starving artist. A piece of paper can open doors and provide a bit of leverage to higher pay , just pick the right field. If you choose nursing you would be always needed and have many flexible options , become an advocate for alternative approaches such as Eden Alternative and Naomi Feils Validation Therapy - these are the " permaculture "
approaches to human caring.
" If I was a rich man ..... " Rev Tevia

If you don't want to go to college because you are lazy, you should go to college. If you don't want to go to college because you have so many ideas, plans, etc and can't slow down long enough to go to college, you don't need college most likely.

In my opinion, it is about momentum. Those who have succeeded in spite of having no college did so because they themselves are nearly an irresistible force. If they need to learn something, they will. If they need to get opportunity, they will make it.

For the record, I never slowed down long enough for college - and can't stand going for training because it is so slow. But, both our children have degrees, and so does my wife. Everyone I know who has made it pretty big without college would have been successful no matter what - at least in making money. There are naturals in painting, throwing a ball, etc. There are naturals in business too.

When I was in High school, I had grades that would make a turnip look like an overachiever. The thing that surprised people was, that I scored very high on ACT, SAT, etc. The reason is, I had learned everything, and a lot more, and retained it because I was interested in it. I just hated doing busy work, i.e. homework.

So, the answer is, it depends, and what it depends on most, is you.

Hi Rob,
I've spent the last 7 years cultivating a career that required a lot of school and experience, and now I've got a graduate degree and there aren't any permanent jobs. I weighed my options heavily and almost returned for yet ANOTHER degree.... but luckily realized before it was too late that more school was the last thing I wanted to do. My point is, its easy to keep doing what you think you SHOULD be doing, and ignore what your intuition and soul are telling you to do. My decision making strategy was to make a choice, sit with it for a few days and watch what comes up in you... do you feel regret? relief? excitement?

Two brief thoughts to consider:
1- Higher education institutions are BUSINESSES. That is, they're out to make a profit. They've obviously been very successful in roping in young curious minds and filling them with ideas of what is necessary for their career.... then giving them a bunch of busy work to slow the process of education, all while charging large sums of money for tuition fees and supplies.... which as someone else mentioned, is with you for life- cannot be cancelled even by bankruptcy.
2- Think about what you really want to do, and what you need to learn to get there. Most likely, if you already have a job in your field you don't need the formal education right now. You could learn as much as you can from your collegues, experieces and personal studies, then, if you find you can't advance like you would like, you could always try school again. School will always be there, and will always be anxious to take you (and your money).

Above all, be careful not to work yourself into a tailspin about this. A calm head is a clear head.

Good luck!

Lissa

I'm in a horticulture program right now at a local community college. It's just a simple 2 year program but it's kind of set up ideally for generalist. It's a very broadbased cirriculum covering Woody plants, nursery operation, greenhouse management, surveying and mapping , soils , landscape design etc. I'm stoked about this because 1) it's only 8 grand 2) it's perfect for permaculture design 3) it's only a 2 year commitment. In your situation I would have to go with getting out of there. I think alot of folks who have replied to this are pretty spot on. If you want to be a permaculture farmer (what I want to do) then hang out with some permaculture farmers. I"m looking into long term lease and tenure options for farming as well. A very big obstacle for young aspiring farmers is lack of capital for start up and land cost. Long term leases and other tenure and stewardship arrangements are the solution to this problem. If we can get landowners excited about the prospect of them contributing to society merely by allowing vibrant, young permaculturalist loose on land then we have won.

Hey, Rob. I'm in highschool and wondering what I should do after I graduate.

https://permies.com/t/12470/permaculture/Help-me-choose-college-or

Here's some great advice I got from Raine Bradford on that thread: There are no wrong paths. There is only experience and insight gained from it. Enjoy the paths and don't take anything, especially yourself, too seriously.

My question to you is:
WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO? No where in your post do you mention a specific goal. So my advice is write down what you want to do.

You can want to do more than one thing. I have been a heavy equipment operator, dog groomer, intelligence analyst, secretary, horse trainer, airfield manager and more. Pick something that you want to do and then focus on what you need to do to get there. If it involves school then go to school. If it doesn’t then get out of there and focus on your goal.

What if it doesn’t work out? Then do something else. You are young – you can do lots of things. If one thing doesn’t work out – or you get bored with it – reinvent yourself and do something different. Your job is not your identity – it is not ‘who you are’. You can do and experience as many different and varied things as you allow yourself to experience.

And a second note: I commend your brother for not getting a student loan. The student loan is a concept that I just cannot get my head around. It used to be taught that you worked your way through college. Now you go into debt – you are encouraged to borrow money when you have absolutely no prospects for paying it back. I know a pilot that picked cotton in order to pay for college – and he’s not even that old! He just didn’t want to go into debt. That is back breaking work but it is not the norm now days.

So write down a list of specific things that you want to do. That might help you decide what path you need to take.

My uncle worked in a library to put himself through law school in the 70's. If he were to attempt that now he would still fall short to the tune of about 20k per year (same University). The price of the education has gone up, but the value of that same education has either gone down or not risen at the same rate. A degree no longer ensures a paying job.

If you don't know what you want to do, take a few classes at a community college to find out what you don't like. This way you don't waste years of your life meandering about from career to career. However, you are on Permies.com. This means that you have a good interest in permaculture. You also have a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips on how to live simply, yet abundantly in a manner that does not require you to have a degree or make large amounts of money to sustain yourself. Going to school is like digging a hole. At the beginning you can see all around and imagine possibilities. However, the more you dig the hole the deeper you are and can no longer see possibilities...just a big dark pit of dirt. When you finish the degree, where are you? You are at the very bottom of a great big hole and have to climb out to be where you were when you started it all. Point: stop digging a hole and just live.

I absolutely loved almost everyone of my classes that I took for a BA Psychology. I also didn't have to pay for any of it... So yes, I'm very glad I got a degree even though I don't "use" it. However, I know a guy who's parents encouraged him to take his 'college money' and buy property and learn on his own. He is very book smart AND a land owner. Its a different path for everyone.

You have asked for advice as to whether you should get the degree or not.

In all honesty I cannot truely know that. But I can speak from my own personal experiences, and perhaps in them you may find something useful.

Some years ago I began an Environmental Engineering masters degree. Naively, I thought that this would be the path to save the world -- long before that in high school I had written Greenpeace a letter. As a teen I liked junk mail and I learned alot by reading what they sent.

It didn't take me a semester before I started to hate my degree program. But I was too stupid to listen to that feeling within me. I believed that the right thing to do was to get the degree so that I could then move on with my life. BIG MISTAKE. I was never able to finish that degree -- I got bogged down in the masters project which I didn't have enough oomph to finish.

I would say, that based on my experience (which may be significantly different from yours -- we are different people certainly), I would say: GET THE DEGREE ONLY WHEN you know that that credential will open doors to a direction you want to go in.

In short, I recommend that you give up on the degree you no longer care about and do what you love.

On a somewhat tangential point, I have since learned that college degrees are inherently designed to support this culture's goal of destroying everything. They are about domination and control of knowledge and what people think is true. The book that brought light to this issue for me is: The Spirit of Regeneration by PRATEC. In this book the originators of this organization, which strives to support Andean indigeneous culture, sought to capture the reality of Andean culture first in their own fields of specialty and then later in others. They failed to do so and came to the conclusion that the realities of Andean culture are impossible to capture in the system of the universities.

I myself (as someone who excelled in our educational system and finds that modality relaxing and comforting) have come to not hold with much esteem any of the products of modern learning as it is done in schools.

The best way to learn ANYTHING is by doing; not by reading. (Which is why the guys on the Big Bang Theory suck at everything.) Reading helps in bits and pieces sometimes in the process of learning, but only as it supports the process of doing.

Thank you for the opportunity to get this off my chest.

Be Well,
Denise

I think the difference between "formal" and "informal" education often is simply that prestigious piece of paper from a recognized educator. obviously, you don't want brain surgery from a guy that took the home internet course, but in general...

There are some types of jobs and work that require that piece of paper to get your foot in the door, so I struggled through electronics school, got a job in electronics.
Once my foot was in the door however, I started learning things on my own to "move up the ladder".

For instance, I taught myself Spanish through internet courses, workbooks, old text books, and simply immersing myself in it. I have no degrees or fancy papers that confirm my ability, but regardless my company took notice of my abilities and ended up sending me around the world as the international representative for the company. (not to mention many other opportunities that were opened too)

If one is not a "self -starter" or hasn't a personal drive to push themself to learn something, then formal education may be the way to go if only for the methodology of it.

I think 75% plus of higher education is a total waste of time -- currently finishing masters -- they don't have anything left to teach, so each class, I learn about the professors family, and they always tell us about apa mechanics. All of my masters courses could have been a knowledgeable person (i.e. professor) posting material for class to read, then submit paper/take test. I get nothing from the seat time except a numb ass. My profession requires degrees. After watching Bill Mollison and Geoff Lawton's PDC video, I have been calling the professors' bluff. It is funny, b/c they respect me more now that they know, that I know, that they have nothing to left to"teach".
I enjoyed undergrad classes b/c it is like mental gymnastics, new ideas, a lot of WOW moments. But in the end, it was mostly mental masturbation -- which is good for the prostate right?
For what it's worth, in the PDC video (and I assume elsewhere) Bill Mollison explicitly lambasts landscape design (I took some courses for this and I totally agree) for not having -- correct me if I'm wrong -- functionality as part of its design paradigm.
He tells a story about putting his watch on the podium for five minutes after asking a group of landscape architects "who here designs functional gardens?" (or some similar idea) basically saying that landscape design might be pretty, but is totally useless except as eye candy.
The only worthwhile part of my education is that I can now write exceptionally according to The Academy (dont ding me on my grammar b/c I don't edit much/any for forum posts and I didn't say perfect).
Writing well is not acquired easily in most cases -- I have complete confidence now. Was this worth the cost of time and money?
For me the answer is a resounding no, but sometimes, one is sidetracked by goals that, in the end, end up being not exactly what one had hoped for in terms of satisfaction. This has happened to me inside and outside The Academy.
Can I earn a good living almost anywhere in the world? yes, could I do that b/4 school? not as much. Does it matter?
So, now I can save for a "grubstake" (as Paul calls it) whereas, b/4 that may not have come to fruition (as quickly) -- but who knows?
I now know a lot of jargon and have technical skills that are useful, but not required, for certain aspects of my permaculture goals.
To quote Bill "They haven't locked the gates yet!"
ps Interestingly, pdc's and earning the permaculture diplomas mimic higher ed, with the major differences (in my perspective) being hands-on requirements and generalization (where the academy honors hyper-specialization). So, if you are a jack/jill of all trades like myself, maybe consider this too.

Worth considering: SKIP, in lieu of traditional college.


paul wheaton's video explaining SKIP

As a retired teacher, I can tell you that Education is such a personal issue that it is really difficult to decide on formal versus informal Education: I knew from age 12 that I wanted to study Foreign Languages [English and Spanish especially, but Italian later]. That was my star, something that I felt I was pretty good at, and for many kids, as they learn, they will start figuring out their "comfort zone". I also loved mechanical stuff and at age 6, seeing mom struggle to keep the house clean, I designed a house that could be cleaned from top to bottom, just by starting the water pump. there were little gutters along every wall and nothing was made of water soluble material, or something that could get damaged by water. It looked really good on paper and mom said that was the best present I could give her for Mother's day. It never came to pass, but I still have a passion for building stuff.
Not only there are subjects I will never be good at, no matter how hard I apply myself [math and business] but I became a pretty good typist. I didn't make a career of it, but I could have.
What I'm getting at is that every kids is different and learns differently, in spurts. My older boy got a degree from Madison. a triple major[ Languages, history and politics]. He really liked it, but upon graduating confided in me that he still didn't really know what he wanted to do. I had noticed his love of computers and I said: the only time I see you really happy and smiling is when you are at the keyboard. Maybe computers would be good for you? He now lives in Chicago and is making 6 figures as a computer server administrator. His younger brother decided that Law was his path from early on. He really applied himself and did become a lawyer.
My students followed similar paths, some deciding early, others getting out of high school without a clue. Some went in auto mechanics, others in the Armed Forces, other took an apprenticeship. Several pursued careers in music and the arts. I don't know if they eventually got jobs, but that was a strong feeling they had. You have to go with that and at 74, I can tell you that you may not keep that desire to excel in this field or that one: It is great that folks can change, find a passion for a while, then switch to something completely different:
Can you imagine getting a job that you thought you wanted and then realize that you hate a particular aspect of it? and feeling so engaged that you can never change because you have too much education in that field?
Not only are we different from one another, but all along our lives, we evolve as well, and that is a good thing. Keep seeking what you want to do. It is a process that cannot really be rushed. My first husband took a job out of High School that he didn't really like and kept complaining  about "These [expletive deleted] kids nowadays" and felt quite envious I gave him the same advice and offered to help him get there. He went for a couple of months but he quit. He just didn't have it in him to study computers and he went back to his job as a papermaker and hated it until he retired. Now, he farms and likes it.
One problem that I didn't have and my children didn't have is that Higher Education was still relatively affordable when we went to college.
So I'm not much help, am I? You may just have to think really hard about what kind of work makes you HAPPY and really go for it. You will find it. You are smart, you are capable. It is just like love: out there, there is one that is just right for you.

Should i go to college is the wrong question; yes entirely the wrong question when there are so many better questions. Start with - Why should I go to college. And if your answer is to get a degree; that is the wrong answer. Now continue asking questions until you are exhausted.

The goal is self mastery, and the paths are myriad and personal. It is no more complicated than that.

Max Stadnyk wrote:Should i go to college is the wrong question; yes entirely the wrong question when there are so many better questions. Start with - Why should I go to college. And if your answer is to get a degree; that is the wrong answer. Now continue asking questions until you are exhausted.
The goal is self mastery, and the paths are myriad and personal. It is no more complicated than that.

I agree with you that going to college just to get that sheepskin is probably not the right question. but the decision is not always elitist. Some kids who are not sure what they want to do next and whose goals make going to college necessary may opt to go there. For them, that makes more sense than just grabbing a job to get money right away. For others, who may be in a dire situation, making money may be their only option. The particular talents that a person has are a big part. Some kids are just better with their hands. My husband is great at taking a gun apart and fixing it, even if he has little prior knowledge  of that model. I'm happy I don't live in a society where excellence in math is a top priority for example: I would probably have been stuck in a more menial job because I really suck at math [and business]. Make the best of what you have to achieve happiness.
Also, consider this from the APLU:
"The earnings gap between college graduates and those with less education continues to widen. In 2021, median income for recent graduates reached $52,000 a year for bachelor's degree holders aged 22–27. For high school graduates the same age, median earnings are $30,000 a year".
While the goal may be self mastery,[and part of it certainly is], finding out what you are good at and enjoy doing is much better. I once told my kids: "To me, it does not matter what job/ profession you choose provided you are happy doing it".
It really depends on what their goal is, and as a parent, you just want to make sure they have one. There are some goals that are not achievable without a college degree [Doctor, Teacher, Brain Surgeon] . For those, yes, it makes sense to go for it.
Through all this, we are not addressing the elephant in the room, so to speak: Higher Education has become so expensive as to be a barrier, even to the gifted/ talented, and kids have to get in heavy debt, a debt that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy [unlike all other debts].
Please read on:
https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/history-of-student-loans-bankruptcy-discharge#:~:text=Seven%20years%20later%2C%20in%202005,Prevention%20and%20Consumer%20Protection%20Act.
The various laws that were passed makes it impossible to discharge through bankruptcy. Some students are now old enough that their Social Security checks are garnished! That should not happen in a free country, and these laws should be amended to allow bankruptcy as a last resort.
When I was taking college classes in my native country [France], tuition cost $55.00 at the Sorbonne in Paris. That was for a whole year, not just a semester !  [I'm talking about the 60s]. Things have changed a great deal, but the point is that a system can be devised that works for all at an affordable price. Books, lodging and food  were on top of that, but it was definitely very affordable. We had large classes, but at an age when you are supposed to be self motivated, that was OK: If you didn't study, you failed. That was fair. Having to have a full time job just so you can afford college without getting into unsurmountable debt is NOT fair. But that is largely a political decision that should be addressed by Congress. Most of us are unfortunately not in a position to effect changes.

Late to this discussion, but for me the answer is "for the work I do, both are essential".

I studied in engineering (undergrad and a masters), and the mathematical and scientific tools needed to truly become a great engineer are nearly impossible to acquire as an autodidact. Advanced calculus and linear algebra, for instance, are dry and hard topics, and we have a long experience of teaching those in small bites so that most reasonably smart people can figure it out, and the structure to force young adults to actually do it. (And yes, I use linear algebra on a daily basis. And no, I was not driven enough to spend all my evenings studying those hard topics without the threat of an exam at my back.).

BUT that formal achooling was complemented by part-time jobs,  co-op internships, self-directed research projects, extra-curricular projets. Research-focused graduate school is basically an old-school apprenticeship, where you're paid pennies to tinker around under the mentorship of a more experienced person who keeps you from panicking, giving up or setting fire to yourself and the lab. There's next to no formal teaching.

And when I hire today, I look for both. Someone without a formal degree would have a hard time to convince me they really did put hours of studying advanced math on their own, and they better come prepared to talk fluently about Jacobians and ANOVA. But someone who has never held a job will not pass my interview either.

Thanks Kena for bringing up this older threads.

To me it is essential these days to have a college education to get a good job.

Blue collar jobs might still be available .. Or flipping hamburgers.