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Long-fermented sourdough

 
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My mom, who is very much so a lifelong student of natural health and always talking about topics I have yet to come across, recently mentioned to me something very interesting. I can't seem to find a thread that already exists here about it so I am starting one, but if there is one please excuse me and lead me to it!
Last time I was with her we were talking about gluten intolerance, thyroid issues, etc. and she nonchalantly brings up something about some traditional sourdough breads they make in Europe (where? who knows...) that are so well or highly fermented that even people with celiac can eat it. She has friends in England and other parts of Europe so I am assuming she heard this from one of them... but maybe the info was misconstrued or lost in translation because this seems incredible to me. I have done a bit of googling, but I really love and respect opinions and perspectives I find here! Regardless of what I find out I am baking some long-fermented sourdough asap, I've already got my starter fed and waking up outside of the fridge. Release the Beast 😈
 
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Well.....

My bet is, if its true, its because its buckwheat, or some other non allergenic grain....
Even if the starter is somehow transmogrified, the bulk of flour in a loaf is leavened .... not fermented.

I'm certainly willing to be wrong on this!
While I don't claim to be a celiacian(?) I do know I get foggy brained when off a protein diet...and I've never noted that to be mitigated by sourdough.....
 
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I am located in Germany.
What I know is that sourdough fermentation decreases or even eliminates phytic acid which often gives people problems. Many methods of soaking and fermenting decrease ingredients that are potentially allergenic.
We say it makes e.g. bread "bekömmlich" - translation is "wholesome" or easily digestable.
That is also why you see more people with allergic reactions and irritable bowels because they switch over to white bread that hasn't been fermenting long enough. Fermenting requires time and thus is more expensive!

But while part of the gluten is fermented in sourdough there is still enough to make it dangerous for real celiacs.
It would be interesting to see if the percentage of gluten intolerance is tied to the type of bread that is eaten in a region.
 
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Spelt sourdough is considered "safe-ish" for people who are avoiding FODMAPS (for GI issues, not celiac, more info here https://www.monashfodmap.com/blog/sourdough-processing-fodmaps/ ). I know personally sourdough is way more digestible for me than other bread, but I also do not have celiac.
 
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Margot Davison wrote: long fermentation sourdough



What is the difference between long term fermentation and regular sourdough?  If I keep some sourdough going all the time is this a long ferment?
 
Margot Davison
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Anne Miller wrote:

Margot Davison wrote: long fermentation sourdough



What is the difference between long term fermentation and regular sourdough?  If I keep some sourdough going all the time is this a long ferment?



As far as I've seen in my research, with long-ferment you let it sit up to 5 days, whereas most regular recipes I've followed the dough sits at most 48 hours, often times even shorter. I guess at some point there will be nothing left for the yeast and bacteria to eat, so you wouldn't want it to sit out too long.

I am also not celiac so this isn't an issue for me, but it was an intriguing thought! I do notice a pattern with breads that give me trouble and the ones that don't...
I have friends who are celiac. I'd love to play around with a long-ferment gluten free recipe!

There's a thread currently going around about volkornbrot... boy would that be fun to try making. There is a bakery in Taos, NM that makes it, so delicious! I have not seen anywhere here in the Ozarks that makes it so far...

Thanks everyone for your responses!
 
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Organic ancient grain (kamut, spelt, emmer, einkorn, etc) sourdough could be more easily tolerated by gluten sensitive people. Easier to digest.
 
pollinator
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I restarted making sourdough bread at the onset of covid.  Had done it a couple of times before but it just got to be a pain and I ended up going back to buying bread.  My partner is gluten intolerant.  She eased into it with no ill effects and now has toast in the morning and is fine with pizza and flat breads.  I "feed" it just about every day unless I forget but never more than two days.  It sits on the shelf above the woodstove and gets too dried out if left for too long.  I use King Arthur Organic that we buy in bulk from Webstaurant.  From 5 cups of flour, 1.75 cups of well water, and some starter we get 2 nice loaves of bread.  I use the discard to make the pizza dough and flat bread.

No suggesting that this will work for everyone but it is working for her.
 
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Yes indeed, long rise sourdough is better tolerated by wheat sensitive folk, but I wouldn't go as far as saying its ok for cealiacs.  
By long rise, we're talking at least 72 hours from initially mixing the desem starter till cooking. I've been baking this way for 5 years, and can't bear to eat any other bread.  To get the best tasting result I also grind my flour and nothing is removed.
To achieve this slow method, I keep the dough in the fridge for more than half the time.
 
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I was checking an article on Parmentier, the French guy who introduced the potato to France after being forced to eat potato in a Prussian prisoner camp in 1778. [Potatoes were considered OK for hogs and prisoners. I found an original recipe in French that dragged over a hundred pages [He was defending the tuber plus explaining it to a bunch of sceptics who had never used potatoes or didn't believe he could get potatoes to rise. The measures were in old French  Ounces and Pounds so I had to convert but I think they are close enough to the oz and Lbs we are used to that it may not need converting. It is indeed possible to make bread out of potatoes and *only* potatoes. It is more involved than wheat bread because everything takes longer, from preparing a starter "sourdough" to baking it in a low oven, but he said he ended up with a totally white bread, and it will be perfect for Celiac people because it does not use any gluten, which is the protein responsible for that allergy. I apologize for the length of the post but I condensed a 200+ page book dedicated entirely to make that bread.
Parmentier’s recipe for making potato bread.
He made his own yeast, somewhat like we create a sourdough starter, and it needs to be cut in half and renewed every time you make a new batch of bread, just like you keep the sourdough alive. This yeast, just like for sourdough bread gets better with age.
Other than that, it is relatively easy to make potato bread that does not contain *any* wheat flour, therefore no gluten..
The ingredients are simple and few:
Potato starch [from raw potatoes] Peel and grate with a fine rasp, add water and squeeze through a cloth. The water will precipitate and at the bottom of the bowl, you will get potato starch, which you can evaporate and keep on hand.
Potato pulp [from boiled potatoes] peel and boil. The water could be kept to add as the "hot water".
A bit of salt. [More for flavor as the bread has a "wild taste"
Very HOT water. [He insists on that I don't know if the type of starter thus created is immune to very hot water??]
This will be the basic composition of the bread, and of the starter. And every time you make more potato bread, you will be adding *all* these ingredients again in the same proportions. The long fermentation time is what creates the bread work.
For those who already make their own bread, the main difference I see it that it takes longer for every phase of production: The *original* yeast takes about 6 days to prepare, After you punch it down, rising still takes about twice as long as wheat bread, baking is done with a lower temperature and takes longer. But you do get a delicious white bread for your efforts.
Since Parmentier didn’t have the type of ovens we have now, he cooked with a wood stove/ oven.
He would prepare the dough the evening before, after making a starter. [The first starter takes 6 days] In the morning, he’d punch the dough and shape the loaves, put them in a damp and warm environment, covered. [He didn't have plastic film so he often sprinkled water before he covered it. After 4 hours, he’s start the wood stove, which would take about 2 hours to get to the desired temperature. [So that accounts for the 6 hours]. Then you finally put the loaves in the oven and bake about 2 hours. He repeats that this is an important point: a low oven and a long time in the oven. [For comparison, wheat bread takes only 25 minutes at 350F]. If it cooks too hot, all the moisture might evaporate too fast, a crust would form prematurely and prevent the center from getting cooking fully.
These are the proportions given in French pounds and ounces in the 1780s for 1 French pound of cooked bread at the time: With my nimble converter:
9 ounces of starch [9.71oz]
9 ounces of potato pulp [9.71oz]
4 ounces of hot water [4.31oz]
"That mixture adds up to 22 ounces of dough, of which 6 ounces of water evaporate during cooking, leaving a loaf of bread weighing one pound".
The salt is there for taste.
To prepare the dough to bake, place the yeast in the center, surrounded by the hot potato pulp in chunks. Add the hot water and salt and knead vigorously until you have homogeneous dough. Here is a French link which is a pain to use but anyway... I have not made it yet, so if you try it, please let me know how that turned out. We have tons of potatoes around here, so making bread out of potatoes rather than wheat berries you have to mill etc. is interesting.
https://books.google.com/books?id=xZokIMSQAtwC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
Cécile Stelzer Johnson
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Parmentier said that to get your starter going faster, you could cheat by adding some baker's yeast the first time. I just put this cheat note in there but this would add a bit of gluten. [I'm wondering because is there gluten in baker's yeast? I suspect so but I'm not sure].. maybe not so much that it would matter for Celiac people, but if you do not have Celiac...  also, this would be a one off, so after a few batches, there wouldn't be much gluten left of that original starter...
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