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Help for painful backs

 
pollinator
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This post was inspired by the thread on corsets, after several people said that wearing one helped their bad back problems.

I've suffered from back pain, sometimes disabling, my entire adult life (I'm now 66).  A lot of it is cramped muscles, but I also get 'pops' and my back 'going out,' both of which are caused by what the doctor told me is mild arthritis in my back.  The arthritis may be mild, but the pain sure as heck isn't.  A few months ago, mostly out of desperation, I started on the carnivore diet.  I've been on it off and on ever since.  What I've noticed is that when I'm sticking to it, I do not get the back popping and going out kinds of pain, and the muscle cramping pain is reduced.  When I go off of it, the popping and going out immediately returns.  That's a rather strong inducement to staying ON the carnivore diet, LOL!  It makes sense, because arthritis is caused by inflammation, and an all-meat (plus eggs) diet is the least inflammatory diet out there.  That is, in fact, the reason I decided to try it in the first place.  I was having so much muscle pain that I could hardly function -- and being non-functioning, when I have a handicapped daughter to care for in the house and chickens, goats, dogs and a cat outside, is simply not an option.  I was dubious about just eating meat, but within a couple of days, the muscle pain was down to where I could live with it.  And it wasn't long before I noticed that my back was hurting a lot less, too.

So, by all means wear a corset rather than a bra!  But if you are having a lot of back pain, please consider changing your diet, too.  I'm finding that I do pretty well on mostly meat with some non-starchy vegetables, so I don't necessarily have to be totally carnivore.  Dairy is a problem (and here I am, with dairy goats and raising a Jersey heifer).  Butter is okay, but I really have to limit the milk/cream/cheese consumption.  And sugar and starchy foods are completely out.  
Staff note :

This discussion was split off of
Wearing corsets for support and healthhttps://permies.com/t/149755/Wearing-corsets-support-health
It's on ways to help back pain other than corsets.

 
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This is a re-post of mine from another forum here,  but I thought it might help here too,  so here we go:

I had severe joint pain, mainly knees and back, for many years.

Part of it was being a mechanic as a first career, extreme heavy lifting when I owned junkyards was another.
Almost everything I did when younger was heavy physical work.

I figured I was just going to be semi-crippled at an earlier age from bad choices until I lucked into a few things that mostly fixed it all.
I was researching dog food and found my way onto a site by a Dogtor J, who was a vet but also had serious joint and health issues himself. he was researching why dogs and cats were going down at ridiculously early ages compared to the past and figured out it was the food.  Specifically wheat, corn, soy, and dairy, with exceptions for fermented versions of dairy and soy.

I'll give you the too long didn't read version first...

Those things listed above cause your intestines to go into emergency mode, allowing a lot of proteins that would never pass into your blood to pass on through. These alien proteins eventually lodge in your joints and thyroid (I was also taking thyroid meds at the time, don't now), your immune system recognizes them as aliens and goes after them, destroying the joint cartilage in the process.

At the time I was a big time hobby baker. The info I read on the Dogtor's site was very convincing but I couldn't imagine not baking (this was way before all the gluten free flours currently) and that I would grudgingly give it a try for two weeks as he suggested.

I hated it, but there was unquestionably a HUGE improvement in joint pain overall within the two weeks.
I was sold, and proceeded to cut those foods out of my eating.

It's fifteen or twenty years later now, all the under active thyroid issues went away gradually but completely and the only joint pain I have now is the stuff I did cause via wear and tear.

Which leads us into the second major help for these issues...the Ace type elastic knee and back braces. I suggest Ace brand because I've had better durability and fit from these.
Seems the  heat generated from wearing these when working is a big help in minimizing pain too.
I always wear the back brace when working and the knee braces when a knee acts up.

The other big thing for my knees was not wearing heavy clodhopper boots or hiking shoes. If I stick to going barefoot when I can, or wearing lightweight water shoes when I can't, the knees rarely act up.
Seems the leverage of those heavy boots was too much on the knees.

I think another contributing factor was Linus Paulings vitamin protocol:

http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/protocol/excerpt_chp7.pdf


For a deeper read on the wheat corn soy issue, here's an info dump from a text file where I paraphrased some and copied and pasted some of the info to have for my future reference:

Dogtor J

"Wheat, Corn, Soy, Dairy

Many years back now I stumbled onto a veterinarian's site,  Dogtor J (dogtorj.com).

The Doc started looking into why there's so much pet epilepsy in recent years and that led him to believe wheat, corn, soy and dairy in the pet food were the culprit.

He was having major health problems himself and decided to try quitting all the above.

End result was complete recovery from some serious stuff.

I was having a lot of the same  problems and more , tried it myself, and was amazed within 2-3 weeks at the difference. My major issue was joint pain but I gained unexpected benefits in a whole lot of other areas.

2-3 months out it got even better as I got some major mental benefits, the major one being a huge anxiety level decrease.

The (very) short version of why this works  -  unfamiliar (to your immune system) protiens get past your intestines into your bloodstream due to the wheat/corn/soy/dairy causing damage in your intestines. These protiens lodge in your joints and also  go past the blood/brain barrier. Your immune system goes nuts and destroys your joints and other things (which causes serious inflamation) going after the alien protiens.
The wheat and corn will seriously spike your blood sugar, with high blood sugar being linked to early ageing and diseases like Alzheimers and Diabetes.

Since finding this I've saved some friends from joint replacements, surgeries and a host of other things by suggesting this to them if they were willing to give it a go.

One great thing about it is quick results - you'll feel so much better at the 2-3 week point.

I was convinced I would never give up wheat and corn (I was quite expert at baking and loved it dearly) but the results were just too good to ignore or to risk backsliding back into how I was feeling before.

The wheat is particularly hard to quit because you actually have withdrawl from it. Wheat hits the same pleasure sensors in your brain that the opiates do.

Here's the longer, more technical version of this as explained by the doc himself:




Villous atophy of small intestine caused by dairy, wheat (wheat, barley, rye), soy,
corn

These four “foods” (gluten grains, dairy, soy, and corn) are the only four foods
that I know of that can induce the changes in the intestinal tract (primarily the
duodenum)seen in celiac disease (gluten intolerance. The lesion is known as villous
atrophy and involves damage to and atrophy of the tiny finger-like projections of
the intestinal lining, which are responsible for absorption of nutrients.
The main nutrients absorbed by the duodenum are calcium, iron, iodine, B
complex, C, and trace minerals such as zinc, magnesium, boron, lithium, chromium,
manganese, and more. It is easy to understand why people suffering from the
food intolerances often have the worst osteoporosis, iron deficiency anemia,
thyroid problems, failing immune systems, and poor skeletal systems.

In addition, gluten, dairy, and soy contain very high levels of dietary estrogens,
which are inflammatory, immune suppressive, and neurologically stimulating. (PMS
anyone?)

They are also rich in the non-essential, neurostimulating amino acids glutamate
and aspartate, the parent proteins in MSG and NutraSweet respectively. These
contribute greatly to ADHD, epilepsy, pain syndromes, neurodegenerative
diseases (e.g. MS, ALS, Alzheimer’s) and more. See The GARD and Epilepsy
section for more details.

5) What is this “glue food” thing I keep reading about on your site?

Each of the “big 4? foods (gluten, casein from dairy, soy, and corn can be and
have been used to make industrial adhesives. They have made powerful
waterproof industrial adhesives from gluten, casein, and soy. In fact, soy protein
is used to make incredibly strong super-glues with which they assemble your
automobile. Your rear view mirror is stuck to the windshield using a soy-based
super-glue. Wow!

Why is this important to see? Because it illustrates the tenacity of these food
proteins. These trouble foods are “glycoproteins”…part carb, part protein…from
their main structure right down to their molecular components (lectins). The
lectins of these foods are very sticky and adhere to cells in the body inducing
inflammation. Some individuals are much more intolerant of these lectins than
others but the fact is that very high numbers of people are afflicted by one or
more of the “big 4?.

The “glue” principle is simply the thing “seen” to help us understand the things
“unseen”…the adherence of these sticky proteins to tissue and blood cells,
resulting in arthritis, neuropathies, blood disorders, and many other previously
misunderstood conditions.




Those of faith point out that our Old Testament ancestors ate wheat and drank
milk, so “How bad can it be?"
We made some very serious mistakes in our nutritional history, starting with the
blending of wheat by our Germanic ancestors. In the 4th century AD, they took
original wheat (Einkorn wheat – Triticum monococcum) and blended with it two
other grasses in the Triticum family, thus creating “common wheat”, from which
our present day wheat is derived. We know now that this act not only
dramatically increased the gluten content but also introduced the harmful
ingredient into gluten to which so many are now reacting

The next big mistake occurred when our English ancestors jumped ship from
goat’s milk (the universal foster milk) to cow’s milk as their source of dairy
products. The difference in the casein fraction is subtle but immunologically
immense. Plus, we know now that these Anglo-Saxons chose the wrong cows back
in the 1500’s when they picked what are now termed “A1 cattle” (the western
European varieties – the Jersey, Guernsey, and Holstein) vs the “A2? variety (the
Zebu or Brahma). A Google search tells you all that you need to know about the
ramifications of their choice – BCM7 (beta casomorphin 7), the origin of type 1
diabetes and “the milk devil”.

Recently, researchers have isolated the protein that triggers type-1 diabetes.
They have known for years that our children who get cow’s milk in the first five
days of life have a 40-50 times higher rate of type-1 diabetes than the  general
population. But they also noted that Africa’s Masai, who drink the milk of the
Brahma, never experience type-1 diabetes. So these scientists took a group of
diabetes-prone, non-diabetic rats and divided them into two groups – those to
receive A1 milk from the western European cattle and those to get A2 from the
Zebu/Brahma. Nearly half of those receiving A1 milk developed diabetes and none
of those getting A2 developed the condition. The researchers went on to isolate
the single protein that was causing the problem and, in that protein, they found
one alteration in the amino acid sequence that made the difference. That’s the
razor’s edge on which we live, just like the exact nature of the earth’s orbit
required to sustain life.

The Asian Mistake

The “third plague”, as I like to call it, is soy….the Asian mistake. This
health-robbing legume was buried underground in one remote area of world and
used for years as a non-edible plant used in crop rotation to add nitrogen back to
the soil. It took the Asians years to decide to eat it but first they had to develop
the means to make it safe for consumption. They learned that fermentation made
soy more tolerable just like our ancestors discovered with dairy products (e.g.
yogurt, kefir). Interestingly, rice and rice-based wines turned out to be antidotes
for some of the harmful properties of their newest culinary creation, in the same
way that Italians learned to consume wine, high fat meats, olive oil and vinegar to
protect themselves against their passion for pasta. But we should know that any
food that requires as much processing as soy – just to make it safe to eat – will
cause problems in individuals even when properly prepared.

And yet, the soy industry tried to tell us that soy was a health food and that
Asians were healthier because of the soy they consumed. Thankfully, we quickly
found out the truth. The only reason that Asians (in Asia) are healthier than
Americans in some aspects is because their traditional diet has NO gluten, NO
dairy, and NO corn. Soy was their mistake and its gut and tissue-damaging
lectins, its overwhelming levels of isoflavones, and its wide array of anti-nutrients
tell the tale. No one talks about the fact that Asians actually only live one year
longer than the Swiss (and I don’t see them pounding down the soy) and lead the
pack in the incidence of stomach cancer.

Like dairy, soy has altered the outward appearance and the internal mechanics of
our children. The most notable fact is that the first menstrual cycle of our little
girls is occurring much earlier than normal. It was generally accepted in the past
that the first menses occurred at 15 years of age. We know from studying this
event in the Japanese children before and after WW2, that increased dairy
consumption (Americanization has its toll) brought this age down to 12. But soy
has dropped this age down into the single digits. It is now reported that nearly
20% of our little girls have their first menstrual cycle by age 8. Wow! If that is
not bad enough, I was giving this “lecture” to a woman on the local school board
the other day in my office and she told me that there were three nine year-olds
in our school system that were pregnant . Unbelievable. Isoflavones are a very
real threat to our children’s development, including our males. I’ll leave that part
to your imagination and Google.

That leaves corn – the “gift of the American Indian”, as many of us view it. “Corn
must be healthy if the Indians ate it”, a number of people have said to me.
Ahhh…but the history of corn is one of the most interesting. It took thousands of
years for the Hispanic ancestors to create the ear we see now. It started out as
a useless grain in a single valley down in meso-America. And everywhere corn was
introduced, pellagra (niacin deficiency) broke out. Wikipedia incorrectly blames
this on the fact that niacin is deeply locked in the kernel of the corn. That would
be the answer IF corn was their only source of niacin, which it was not. No…corn
caused the niacin deficiency because it induced villous atrophy in those sensitized
individuals who consumed it, just as it does in countless people and animals today
(with rising corn allergies being the outward sign). That’s why pellagra broke out.
They could not absorb the niacin from any dietary source once the lining of the
gut was damaged. Yes…corn is nasty stuff, supported by the fact that corn
gluten meal kills other plants (a “natural herbicide”) and corn meal can be used to
kill insects. That’s why it puts fat on anything that consumes it: Fat is the body’s
recycle bin and we form new fat cells in order to shuttle bad things out of the
general circulation and into the “trash file”.

Our Body Knows What It is Doing

The only other things that damage our villi in the way that these foods do are
viruses and fluoride, both of which give us important insight into why gluten, et al
do this to our intestinal lining. Why does a toxic does of fluoride cause extreme
damage to those finger-like projections called villi? To keep us from absorbing it.
The same thing holds true for gluten, dairy, soy and corn. This drastic change is
meant to be a temporary means of protecting us. But what part of the cell makes
the decision to shrink our villi? Our residential microorganisms do this. Yes,
viruses and pleomorphic bacteria are responsible for this amazing adaptive
process. I guess we should stop dissing them so badly, eh? Much of what we call
“disease” is simply an outward sign of this adaptive process. These resident
microbes are on our side!

The bad news is that the damaged food chain does not end here. Have you heard
that we can be “secondarily glutenized” by eating the flesh of animals that are
fed these food items? This is a very real issue and I am now getting testimonials
from people who have seen major advances in choosing grass fed beef and free
range, range-fed chicken and their eggs over the grain-fed varieties. This can be
especially important in the treatment of immune-mediated diseases as well as
neurodegenerative and neuropsychiatric disorders.

Oats ARE high in glutamate. That’s why I recommend that those with epilepsy,
migraines, fibromyalgia, etc avoid them until they see a good resolution of their
problem. They are gluten-free unless contaminated with other gluten grains (e.g.
wheat) during harvesting, which unfortunately does occur with regularity. Gluten,
of course, is not the only rich source of glutamate, as nuts, seeds, cheese, soy,
etc are also rich. The problem with nuts is that we just eat too many of them. All
we need is about 7 almonds or 10 peanuts to get what we need from them for
the day. How many people do you know that eat only 7-10 peanuts.


When the intestinal villi are damaged badly enough by the “big 4? foods, the gut
releases a substance called zonulin. This hormone “opens” the intestinal immune
barriers in order to facilitate the absorption of nutrients that was being carried
out by the healthy villi. This, along with the amazing ability of the ileum to
compensate for this damage, is the intestine’s “plan B” for nutrient absorption.
But as often occurs, plan B comes with a price, which is the fact that some things
that normally wouldn’t pass through the intestinal barriers manage to do so and
get into the bloodstream. This included macromolecules of food (partially
undigested) that the immune system no longer recognizes as normal, resulting in
antibodies being formed to that food. But it also includes chemicals and infectious
agents that we now know play a role in the development of secondary health
issues, such as type 1 diabetes and juvenile pancreatic atrophy (digestive enzyme
deficiency). Google zonulin for a very interesting read.

This process is the known pathomechanism behind secondary food allergies, which
occur when we form antibodies to otherwise healthy foods such as eggs, meats,
tropical fruits, tree nuts, shellfish, vegetables, and the like. The primary allergens
are the “big 4?- gluten (wheat, barley, rye, and all forms of wheat), dairy soy and
corn- because they are the ones doing the intestinal damage and eliciting the
immune response. All others are secondary by nature. Some of these secondary
foods are totally healthy for us (e.g. eggs, fruits, vegetables) but some of the
secondary food allergens make perfect sense, as the Food Allergies appetizer
discusses.


The Food Opioids

The following is an Email that I sent to the Friends of DogtorJ concerning these
critically important morphine-like derivatives from dairy and wheat. Beta
casomorphin 7 (BCM7) from cow’s milk (A1 variety) is ten times more powerful
than morphine. Wow! You will be shocked- but not surprised- to see the role they
play in our every day lives (e.g. post meal depression, autism, chronic fatigue, the
down cycle of ADHD). And yet…most have never heard the terms.
gtor J



Casomorphins and Gliadomorphins- The Food Opioids

Dear Friends,

I just received the two links below from a friend suffering from this exact issue.
These morphine-like substances (casomorphins and gliadomorphins) that we derive
from dairy and wheat, respectively, are critical to our understanding of the
power of these two foods. They help to explain why 75% of the calories in the
standard American diet (SAD) come from these wheat and dairy alone. Food
addiction is a very real thing and these opiods play a huge role.

As noted in one of the articles, many autistic children are completely addicted to
wheat and dairy, which is consistent with the idea that we become addicted to
what will make us ill (cigarettes, drugs, alcohol and food ). There are no healthy
addictions and food is no exception. If an individual feels like they cannot give up
cheese or bread, then they are very likely to be having a problem with one of
these foods. I counsel people like this all of the time and can use that dependency
to help them see that those very foods are a major contributor to their IBS,
arthritis, depression, or other typical signs associated with food intolerance. And
withdrawal from these foods can lead to classic drug-withdrawal symptoms as
the articles below point out.

These sedating compounds are also the single biggest contributing factor to
post-meal drowsiness. I have proven this in my own life as I used to become
extremely sleepy after meals starting in my late 30’s. My wife was beginning to
think I was a narcoleptic. I would literally pass out during our favorite TV show. I
no longer exhibit this annoying and even dangerous symptom now that I am gluten
and dairy-free. In fact, it has been stated that more people die from falling
asleep at the wheel while driving than from alcohol-related accidents. What could
be doing this? What could keep us from doing the most important thing (staying
awake) while driving down the Interstate at 65-80 mph? Now you know. Throw
alcohol into the mix and you have a tragic situation just waiting to happen.

We need to become very familiar with these two terms. I have yet to casually
meet anyone who has heard them over the seven years following my first
encounter with them in the literature…not a doctor nor a lay person. Amazing.
And yet they play a vital role in the lives of the multitudes, contributing to food
addiction, clinical depression, chronic fatigue, caffeine addiction, autism, highway
deaths, and more.

Amaze your friends! Commit these to memory and talk about them at dinner
parties. You’ll be the focus of attention.

Here are the links:
http://www.corepsychblog.com/2007/09/brain-awareness.html
http://www.corepsychblog.com/2007/08/celiac-notes-op.html

https://dogtorj.com




 
pollinator
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I learned some fascinating things from the part of the corset video I got to watch.  I haven't finished the whole thread but I do want to mention what I see missing from these discussions: manner of movement.

Just as Fukuoka discovered that not doing things to solve "problems" in the landscape allowed nature to restore its balance and retain coordination of parts, F. M. Alexander discovered that non-doing of interfering patterns of movement allows for the functional antigravity response to move us up easily in gravity.  

As you're reading this, what if I told you you can you do a hair less of what is interfering with your antigravity support and still accomplish the task of reading? what if I told you you can allow the whole computer screen to be included in your field of vision and not only these words or the box they're in?  (This is only one of many things most people are doing to try to get a goal accomplished, but which interfere).

Manner of movement affects phyisical wellbeing and also sensitivity to one's conditions of movement ("Wow, this chair is really too short for me"; "I never noticed how small these stairs really are"; "I really need to get up and stretch my back for a sec here."). In our habitual, inteference-full patterns of movement, most of us ignore a LOT of this sensory information, and tense up a bit to screen it out.  

Rather than jumping to trying a different brace, corset, bra, shoe, or chair, I would suggest applying the principle of observation and questioning assumptions.  In movement teaching we even query your kinesthetic sense of things--not that the kinesthetic sense is misleading you, but it can get easily tuned to a distorted proportion.  If you don't bother tuning your instrument, there's little value in changing the other equipment you use with it.  

Movement learning is permaculture principles applied to the self (body-mind).  I hope this helps put this on more people's radar!  
 
Dave Bross
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Joshua,

That's interesting, and I've lucked into some moves (and some moves not to do) on a few pain problems in the past that really cleared things up.

Any suggestions for good resources for the how-to-do-it on this?
 
pollinator
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The two most important things I've done for back pain from ruptured L4-L5 disc and degenerating cervical discs is strength training and yoga.

After my disc surgery decades ago the Dr. told me to rest and not exercise to help heal. After almost two years of progressively increasing pain that left me nearly non-functional, I started exercising and the pain reduced dramatically. People need to move, even if it's slow. I started weight lifting using high reps and light weights, and the pain went down even more. In particular, doing dead lifts with good form started strengthening the spinal support muscles. The muscles are there for a reason and need to be cared for.

Yoga has also been very good for all my joints, and especially for my spine due to the stretching and range of motion exercises as well as the static strengthening aspect.
 
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I have one and people online swear by it: Acupressure mat.

There are a boatload of them now on Amazon and elsewhere. I think the original is actually a Swedish Spike Mat, which is what I would buy if I didn't have a Chinese version already.

I've always done it without a shirt and it's an absolute pain for the first 5 minutes, and it gets so numb (read: hot) that it's tough to go for 20 minutes. I find with a shirt to be too mild though.

The other contraption I have is an inversion table. I got it super cheap and the guy didn't want it so I figured I'd take it, as it was a $350+ unit. It's bulky though and requires some strength to store if you don't want it out all the time.

Keep in mind I've still got 1 year in my 20s so I don't really have back pain, however I do enjoy preventative medicine.
 
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Dear hubby used the inversion therapy as mentioned by Jeff for nearly 20 years.  He used it quite often.

Its permanent home is in my front yard.

Magnesium bath flakes mixed 50/50 with water and put in a spray bottle is an almost instant temporary relief.  Spray it on the pain area and massage as this will give quicker relief while waiting for meds to work.

I really like the relief using T-touch massage.



 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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Dave Bross wrote:Joshua,

That's interesting, and I've lucked into some moves (and some moves not to do) on a few pain problems in the past that really cleared things up.

Any suggestions for good resources for the how-to-do-it on this?



See if you can find a trained Alexander Technique teacher in your region, or work with one on videoconferencing.  It's worth having some experience of a truer paradigm of movement.  Words don't teach.

If you're not able to do this, I give an experiential audio intro each week at noon US Eastern Time on the app "clubhouse."

Reading Frank Pierce Jones's _Freedom to Change_ is my other recommendation.  Good luck.
 
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Yoga. Tai Chi. Swimming. Mindfulness of every movement. Cut out the whiskey. 4 out of 5 are actually very Fun
 
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Shoes!  My problem was related to shoes.

I have scoliosis and get back pain while at work (in a kitchen, 16 hours a week).  While not at work, on my own time, I can alter my behaviours, movement, positions, etc so less pain/not such a problem.  

However, at work I've found that wearing the company issued safety shoes were absolutely killing my back.  In fact, most shoes are terrible for my back and I had to obtain special permission to provide my own orthopedic non slip shoes--Birkenstocks in fact.  It was such a huge relief changing my shoes--which I only wear three hours a day--that I really only wear Birkenstocks now:  a pair of slip on clogs for daily use and a pair of zip up leather boots for muddy work.
 
You'll never get away with this you overconfident blob! The most you will ever get is this tiny ad:
permaculture bootcamp - learn permaculture through a little hard work
https://permies.com/wiki/bootcamp
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