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Carnivore Homesteading

 
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Hello all you wonderful Permie people!

As a post menopausal woman in her sixties who still has a LOT of things she wants to do, I have been trying various ways of eating with little to no success. Now I could say that about my whole life...but I never had a weight issue or any serious health issues until I started into perimenopause. Up to a month ago, I had tried everything from raw vegan to strict keto and all kinds of elimination diets including AIP - don't know what that is? well, it's not fun or easy, I can tell you that!  

Previously, I thought carnivore was just some super weirdo strict ketogenic diet mostly for men who always wanted to eat meat anyway. I could barely imagine such a thing and it sounded boring and gross to someone who willingly eats homemade cream of broccoli soup with nutritional yeast sprinkled on top.

But one gets desperate. It became less and less about my weight and more and more about my lack of energy, my inability to get 3 good night's sleep in a row, how I avoided exercise that I used to love and even more immediate how the heck was I going to get up at the crack of dawn every day to milk my cow about to calve?!!!

I've never been one to push the responsibility for my choices onto someone else. Shoot, there wasn't anyone else to push it on really. Husband still take mechanic calls that can happen 24/7 and the cow was not his idea. He absolutely loves her now but that is another story. I don't even remember the moment I decided to try it. At least I don't t remember the exact impetus. I do certainly remember the day. Turned out to be the start of a week in which my husband and I went carnivore, my cow calved and we processed 18 rabbits of which my part is to cook, shred and freeze the meat. All with my hiney dragging the ground in 100+ heat in west Texas.

I know for many of you on here that sounds like a normal week.
I want it to be a normal week for me as well. Sleep and energy could make that happen. Less heartburn would lead to easier sleep. Less joint pain would make it all more comfortable. I want to be able to carry heavy weights again instead of just toting it around on my personal self.

So we did it. Thankfully, we had a freezer full of various meat. My garden was pitiful this year - I am much better at raising animals anyhow. My first big shock - it was easy. And by easy, I'm comparing it to anything else I had done as a way of eating and going carnivore was an order of magnitude easier. Not the least of which was the genuine heartfelt appreciation and participation by husband. Yeah, I saw that happy dance dude. I'm not saying there weren't challenges. But overall, I cooked meat and we ate it.

Second big shock - my horrible unending sugar cravings disappeared almost overnight. I still have some "wantings." Nothing like my former addiction level I MUST HAVE SWEET kind of thing. Keto did NOT do that for me. I had friends who said it did it for them. And I was happy for them. It is much different when it happens to you. Seems any level of carb period and my body instantly must have more. Satiation with fat and protein was the answer for me.

Five weeks later I cannot believe how much energy I have. Heartburn is nearly gone. I am getting up EASILY in the morning. The weight is going to take its sweet time but I can deal with that now. At least my clothes all fit comfortably with the bloating gone. I'll probably have to give up the dairy. And the coffee. That's another discussion.

I'm going to stop there with my own story for now. I want to use my beginner's enthusiasm to help someone else who needs a different way. This thread is meant to provide food for thought for anyone considering adopting a carnivore lifestyle. Or for beginners like me who need encouragement.

I'm also hoping to connect with other homesteaders who are finding that adopting said lifestyle is subtly changing their homestead and their homesteading plans.

And I am thankful for a kind, thoughtful but vigorous space in which to talk about these things.

What I am NOT trying to do:
  • Tell anyone else what they should, or should not, eat.
  • Promote myself as an expert on lifestyle choices.
  • Disparage anyone that choses to do things differently.


  • As such, my intention is to populate this thread with insights from my own experience plus reviews of pertinent videos, books and "experts." My ultimate hope is that I will find a small band of like minded folks possibly leading to developing a resource for those of us treading this path that is both ancient and new again.

    See ya soon!

    My beautiful Lady and her new calf Sparky.


     
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    Karen Lee Mack wrote:So we did it. Thankfully, we had a freezer full of various meat. My garden was pitiful this year - I am much better at raising animals anyhow. My first big shock - it was easy. And by easy, I'm comparing it to anything else I had done as a way of eating and going carnivore was an order of magnitude easier. Not the least of which was the genuine heartfelt appreciation and participation by husband. Yeah, I saw that happy dance dude. I'm not saying there weren't challenges. But overall, I cooked meat and we ate it.

    Second big shock - my horrible unending sugar cravings disappeared almost overnight. I still have some "wantings." Nothing like my former addiction level I MUST HAVE SWEET kind of thing. Keto did NOT do that for me. I had friends who said it did it for them. And I was happy for them. It is much different when it happens to you. Seems any level of carb period and my body instantly must have more. Satiation with fat and protein was the answer for me.

    Five weeks later I cannot believe how much energy I have. Heartburn is nearly gone. I am getting up EASILY in the morning. The weight is going to take its sweet time but I can deal with that now. At least my clothes all fit comfortably with the bloating gone.



    Karen welcome to the world of low-carb/no-carb!

    I understand about how this way of eating makes a person feel better.  And the craving going away is an added bonus!

    Thanks for sharing your story of your journey

    You and others might enjoy Matt's story here:

    https://permies.com/t/73817/Experience-Eating-Plants-aka-Carb
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Dr. Anthony Chaffee is my favorite carnivore expert.
    He has knowledge and experience as well as compassion and passion.
    I like his stuff because he does his best to stick to factual information. One can certainly disagree with interpretation, but it helps if there is solid ground to stand on while discussing it.

    This first video I am posting is his take on why humans are carnivores. That is not easy to do in 17 and 1/2 minutes. Most videos like this, as well as many of his, are an hour or more. So consider this "the short version." lol

    I find it fascinating that the doctors who are putting out information have a completely different take on how human digestion works. At least it is different from what I had previously understood. Health and nutrition has been a life long interest of mine and I have done quite a bit of reading, research and experimentation over the years. And now I see that all of that was done in an environment in which some, maybe many, of the players - those funding research and those doing research - have not been completely above board with their intentions and their science.

    When it is all said and done, we each end up doing our own n=1 experiment to see what works for us.

    My notes below are not meant to substitute for the video. He explains and connects the dots better than I can. It's meant to help you decide whether or not to spend your life minutes watching. That is the most valuable currency after all.

    Dr. Anthony Chaffee
    January 25, 2022
    Human Carnivore Digestion

    Time Stamps
    0:01 We are primates with
    adaptations
    2:05 Carnivore vs herbivore
    intestines: structure and fiber
    digestion
    5:18 Bile, gallstones, and fat
    processing system
    13:34 Gut function: meat and fiber
    digestion and colon failure



    Human characteristics that are typical for carnivores:
  • low stomach pH - very acidic - level of scavengers
  • long small intesting where most nutrients are absorbed
  • relatively small large intestine not seen in herbivorous primates
  • herbivore primates are hindgut digesters
  • herbivore primates have long cecum that helps break down fiber


  • We cannot digest fiber. At all.

    We do digest meat easily and well.

    Interesting explanation of how gall stones are caused by not eating fat.

    There are four separate organs involved in fat digestion in the human being making it appear to be vital.

    Listen to end to learn how and why the Salisbury Steak was made.

     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Anne Miller wrote:

    Karen Lee Mack wrote:So we did it. Thankfully, we had a freezer full of various meat. My garden was pitiful this year - I am much better at raising animals anyhow. My first big shock - it was easy. And by easy, I'm comparing it to anything else I had done as a way of eating and going carnivore was an order of magnitude easier. Not the least of which was the genuine heartfelt appreciation and participation by husband. Yeah, I saw that happy dance dude. I'm not saying there weren't challenges. But overall, I cooked meat and we ate it.

    Second big shock - my horrible unending sugar cravings disappeared almost overnight. I still have some "wantings." Nothing like my former addiction level I MUST HAVE SWEET kind of thing. Keto did NOT do that for me. I had friends who said it did it for them. And I was happy for them. It is much different when it happens to you. Seems any level of carb period and my body instantly must have more. Satiation with fat and protein was the answer for me.

    Five weeks later I cannot believe how much energy I have. Heartburn is nearly gone. I am getting up EASILY in the morning. The weight is going to take its sweet time but I can deal with that now. At least my clothes all fit comfortably with the bloating gone.



    Karen welcome to the world of low-carb/no-carb!

    I understand about how this way of eating makes a person feel better.  And the craving going away is an added bonus!

    Thanks for sharing your story of your journey


    You and others might enjoy Matt's story here:

    https://permies.com/t/73817/Experience-Eating-Plants-aka-Carb





    Thank you Anne! That is a great thread. I hope it was okay to make another one. That one seemed very personal to him and I didn't want to "hijack" it.
    It was the thread that helped me find the "right" sub forum which was greatly appreciated. Permies forums are so extensive - I  love them!
     
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    My wife found keto after we watched our friend die from the social/medical effects of obesity.
    She has lost 69 pounds and her diabetes is in remission.
    We go to a teaching hospital for primary care, and she continues to amaze the new residents.

    From what I understand the most hard-core carnivores avoid meat from non-ruminants, but there are many forms of carnivore and low carb diets.
    Many people seems to count their relief from inflammation as the most important effect of these diets.

    Animals can be an efficient way to collect and store  calories.
    I wonder what the acre to calorie conversion is for a carnivore.
    Some of the health benefits seem to spring from avoiding omega 6 fatty acids, but it seems like lots of the most caloric feeds also have lots of omega 6.

     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    William Bronson wrote:My wife found keto after we watched our friend die from the social/medical effects of obesity.
    She has lost 69 pounds and her diabetes is in remission.
    We go to a teaching hospital for primary care, and she continues to amaze the new residents.

    From what I understand the most hard-core carnivores avoid meat from non-ruminants, but there are many forms of carnivore and low carb diets.
    Many people seems to count their relief from inflammation as the most important effect of these diets.

    Animals can be an efficient way to collect and store  calories.
    I wonder what the acre to calorie conversion is for a carnivore.
    Some of the health benefits seem to spring from avoiding omega 6 fatty acids, but it seems like lots of the most caloric feeds also have lots of omega 6.



    I am so happy for your wife!


    Meat from ruminants is said to be better due to the more extensive digestion of the plant material ingested.
    But we have a freezer full of pork. The steer we got along with our dairy heifer (he was practically thrown in for free) is nearly all gone.
    I am buying some beef - mostly chuck roast as that is the best value and I found a great way to cook it. A local source of grassfed beef is all sold out. It's weird being in a part of Texas where it is hard to find beef and it is quite expensive at the store.

    There is plenty of goat here but that would take some getting used to for me. I learned that goat is not so strong if the billy is kept separate but I think people here like it like that so...

    One lesson that I have learned quite thoroughly is to do what you can with what you have. We do have chickens who are laying eggs. My husband just got a light up for me so I can lengthen their day back out slowly. They are young and I think they will respond to that well.

    If you ask questions, I will look for the answers while doing my research. Even if it is just more information to inform the discussion.


    There is always a spectrum I think.
    So looks like the most distilled form is Eat Beef. Add Salt. Drink Water.
    Then I've seen BBBE - Beef, Butter, Bacon and Eggs.
    Then discussions on the role of dairy and if there is room for any kind of sweet or fruit.
    To coffee or not.

    I suspect that I will find I do best the closer I get to the simplest form.
    Dairy has caused me some issues in the past. My heifer is A1/A2 so just now I am getting raw dairy and I want to consume it for a while. I am trying not to binge out. So I have cream and butter in my one cup of coffee. And sometimes some cheese.

    Inflammation is at the root of so many health issues. I've been on a couple of elimination diets that were way harder than just eating animal protein to combat it. Keto worked for me for a couple of years about a decade ago. Now I think it was my insistence that the 20-30 carbs a day be all veggies, often leafy greens, that eventually deep sixed me on that way of eating. There is something about no carb (or as close as I can get currently) that made a huge difference for me. My life is somewhat less stressful than a decade ago and my WHY of regaining my health has gotten ever so much stronger. At 50, I still felt invincible. At 60, it got a lot more Now or Never.

    I am trying to figure out which supplements we still need. The Omega question comes into that. My previous understanding was that we need all the Omegas, it is the balance that is off in our SAD, with too many Omega 6 in ratio to Omega 3. You can see how that could be confusing and get garbled into we just need Omega 3's. If I come across a good exposition by a carnivore doctor, I will post. Another aspect is I am still learning just how many nutrients are in the fat of the animal. I'm working on that. I don't especially love eating the fat except for well mixed with the muscle. I have heard people say their tastes change and I have certainly experienced that with other diets so hopefully I will like fat better as I go along.
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    I streamed this movie last night:

    Sacred Cow Movie

    It was made in 2020 and Joel Salatin is featured in it frequently.

    If you know a lot already about how ruminant animals improve the soil and that whole "cycle of life" thing, you may not learn a lot of new information. But it is a beautiful movie and encouraging. It shows other people on their own path to making the world a better place.

    [How is this related? Just general arguments about how much meat we eat which escalate talking about a carnivore diet.]
     
    William Bronson
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    I love that you found your way into the spectrum!
    There are some in this space that are dogmatic but most seem very reasonable.
    My boo started with dirty lazy keto (by Stephanie Laska) which is heavy on veg and artificial sweetener, but she has moved on from some of that.
    Dr Ken Barry and Dr Eric Westman are a few of the people she follows.
     
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    Karen Lee Mack wrote:

    There is plenty of goat here but that would take some getting used to for me. I learned that goat is not so strong if the billy is kept separate but I think people here like it like that so...




    The wild goats in our area are considered pests so many people hunt them. I have only been given young goats to eat and have not found them to be at all gamey. In any event,  I always brine them overnight bone in and then vac pack and freeze them.

    Marinating in red wine and cooking long and slow makes the meat very tender. Goat is excellent cooked in curries. I hope that you get an opportunity to sample some goat meat, you may be surprised how good it tastes.
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Megan Palmer wrote:

    Karen Lee Mack wrote:

    There is plenty of goat here but that would take some getting used to for me. I learned that goat is not so strong if the billy is kept separate but I think people here like it like that so...




    The wild goats in our area are considered pests so many people hunt them. I have only been given young goats to eat and have not found them to be at all gamey. In any event,  I always brine them overnight bone in and then vac pack and freeze them.

    Marinating in red wine and cooking long and slow makes the meat very tender. Goat is excellent cooked in curries. I hope that you get an opportunity to sample some goat meat, you may be surprised how good it tastes.



    That sounds delicious!!

    I will definitely take the opportunity to try it if I find some. So often it is in the cooking, or the raising or the species. I thought I didn't like goat milk and then my friend brought me some of hers from her Nigerian Dwarf goats and it was ambrosia. The goats here are domestic. My goat knowledge is scanty, it is one animal that I have never raised. But now I have another reason to take a look as it is a ruminant. And that is one of the main reasons I am working on this thread. That my new dietary choice has an effect on my homestead and I want to explore that.
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Omega 3/6/9 Essential Fatty Acids and the Carnivore Diet

    So now I have tabs opened up in my browser - my husband laughs at me when he sees a gazillion tabs across the top of my screen.
    I am going to try just putting the link and then making notes about any that seem credible and helpful with emphasis on more recent information.

    After tossing some fluff links, I came across this:
    Case Against the Carnivore Diet
    I saw the author in person about 15 years ago. I spent a number of years of my life on a very plant based diet including various forms of juicing, taking luscious green powders and trying to find an appetizing way to prepare tofu. Just ask my children. I only skimmed the article as I am quite familiar with that "side" of the story. I am including it as a reference. Personally, I have come to believe that there are two big issues with being dogmatic about anything to do with human health.
  • One is that we are all different with varying genetics and lifestyle choices as well as environmental and cultural factors.
  • The second is that, no matter what is presented, no diet has been vetted by a long term strictly controlled study. If you give even cursory thought to what would be required to make such a study truly gold standard scientific, it is simply outside of our parameters.


  • So most dietary data is based on anthropologic studies or person's recall of what they did or gathering large amounts of anecdotal evidence.
    Wow, talk about a rabbit trail! I am inclined to go off that way. I will get back to the topic, I promise. My point is that much like a discussion of our Origin, dietary dogma cannot be conclusively proven by strictly scientific research that takes all factors into account.

    More fluff but one gave me the idea to post nutritional information on common foods eaten on a carnivore diet. Making a note. And you know, even that is subject to the same issues - a ribeye raised on grass is not going to equal a ribeye finished with corn not to mention various breeds and how they are housed etc etc. Rabbit Holes!!!

    Here is an interesting take if a little heavy on the Paleo ancestry side of things which I only care about to the extent it gives me useful data.
    Can You Eat Fish on the Carnivore Diet?

    The article is from a group selling a coaching type membership but the information is detailed and reads like it is will sourced and in agreement with my basic understanding. Not only that, but there is a section that cuts right to the supposed subject of this post.

    The biggest reason why fish is labeled essential for a complete diet by many, is Omega 3, the critical fatty acid that played a defining role in the evolution of the human brain. Besides the structural benefits, it also plays spoiler to the inflammatory effects of Omega 6. The modern Omega 3:6 ratio is wildly inflated to our ancestral version, going from around 1:1 to 20:1.

    The amount of Omega 3 you can get from beef pales in comparison to oily fish like mackerel and salmon.

    1kg of grass-fed beef gets you 35mg of EPA and 3mg of DHA, the two bioavailable types of Omega 3.

    100g of salmon gets you 1g of each.

    Clearly it’s a better choice to get your Omega 3 up, but it does have to be said that the most effective way to improve that Omega 3:6 ratio is to simply cut down on nuts, seeds, seed oils, and potentially non-ruminants that are fed a diet of grain.

    Rather than getting the 1 up, bring that 20 down.



    This supports my assertion that it is the ratio that is most critical. Of course, I love sources that agree with me! lol

    But seriously, at this time, this is what I think is accurate. Along with what it says, I have read that small fish like sardines are not farmed so that even the cheapest can is "wild caught" making them a very frugal part of a good carnivore diet. I personally eat sardine or kippered herring 2 to 3 times a week accompanied by my current version of carnivore mayo or mustard. I like the taste, but freely admit that I still don't like to look at the sardines I'm eating. I remind myself that all those little bones and such are very good for me. And it is quite satiating. I often have to remind myself to eat more on a day that started (eatingwise) with a can of little oily fish.

    This next article did not especially add to the Omega 3 discussion but WOW is it ever chock full of nutritional information and what is eaten on a carnivore diet. I have watched a number of videos by the author who seeks out authoritative sources for interview. If you want a complete list of what all in included in a carnivore diet, check here. I may come back to this article in another discussion.
    Carnivore Diet Food List

    Here is an example of the kind of detail given in the article. I picked Salmon since we are discussing Omega 3.

    Salmon
    Salmon is one of the most commonly used kinds of fish in the Carnivore diet recipes for its rich, oily texture and distinctive taste.

    Salmon is mainly recommended by healthcare professionals for containing omega-3 fatty acids, especially EPA and DHA, which improve heart health and brain function and reduce inflammation.

    Salmon is also rich in protein and provides amino acids necessary for growth and tissue repair. Let’s see what and how many nutrients can be found in 100 grams of cooked Salmon.

    Protein: 20 g
    Fat: 13 g
    Calories: 206 cal
    Omega-3 Fatty Acids: 1.8 grams
    Vitamin B12: about 80-90% of the Recommended Daily Intake (RDI)
    Vitamin D: about 100-150% of the RDI
    Vitamin B3 (Niacin): about 50-70% of the RDI
    Vitamin B6: around 20-30% of the RDI
    Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid): about 10-15% of the RDI
    Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin): about 10-20% of the RDI
    Vitamin B1 (Thiamine): around 10% of the RDI
    Selenium: about 40-60% of the RDI




    The next article is from Dr. William Kiltz. He is in my top 3 carnivore experts, probably because he created a chain of fertility clinics and speaks to hormonal issues and such regularly.
    Carnivore Diet 101

    I don't see anything specifically related to Omega 3 on a cursory scan. However, it is a lengthy and detailed article that is foot noted. While Dr. Kiltz is monetizing his information, it isn't "his day job" so to speak and I see him giving away a lot for free including a Mighty Tribe that he goes live in frequently.

    Now this video by Dr. Ken Berry goes right to the subject of the post and though it is 4 years old, however it appears that he has updated it or checked it for 2023.  I have not listened to as many videos by Dr. Berry as some other MDs talking about carnivore, but as far as I know, he is a reputable source.



    He addresses the differences between different forms of essential fatty acids (ALA, DHA, EPA) at the beginning.
    I remember when I believed that ALA from plants were fine. I spent many a morning grinding golden flax seeds for a smoothie. I currently believe that ALA is less acessible, by a order of magnitude, but I wouldn't die on that hill by no means.
    He recommends keeping the ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 at 4:1 or less. By comparision, the SAD (Standard American diet) tends to be 20:1 or higher.
    Omega 3 is critical to the formation of cell membranes.
    He says mackerel is usually wild caught and these little fish (sardines etc) are low on the food chain so less mercury.
    Grass fed beef and butter higher in Omega 3. [Karen note - doesn't mean that is all you should eat, you could pair regular beef with sardines like I usually do].
    Pastured eggs and pastured pork - can't wait to have actual pasture!

    The next article turned out to be comprehensive.
    Best Sources of Omega 3 on the Carnivore Diet

    This tidbit is informative.

    Fatty ruminant meat cuts have a higher omega-3 content than leaner cuts. Ruminant meat (e.g. beef, lamb, goat, and bison) in general also has better omega-3 to omega-6 ratios.

    If you don’t eat seafood, eating just fatty ruminant meats is still enough to get the daily recommended omega-3 intake.

    For example, one pound of ribeye a day will deliver more than 1 gram of omega-3s.



    Loads of nutritional info in the article. Maybe I will compare it to the other article above to see if the numbers agree. But not right now.

    My general takeaway is the the Carnivore diet limits the intake of Omega 6 as compared to a standard diet while common foods on the diet are high in Omega 3. It is not a concern of mine and even less after making this post. I can now confidently remove that supplement from our arsenal.




     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    WOW, thank you for the apples! You are too kind. @~~
     
    William Bronson
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    Great post!
    The cholesterol information alone can be life changing.

    Animal wise, I'm in a urban setting,  but I would love sheep or cattle for the milk.
    When I think of goats, I think of escape artists who devour anything and everything.
    Pack goats do fascinate me, but that's for another thread.

    Geese are often overlooked as grass-fed animals.
    I've heard their harvest age coincides with their most annoying behavior.

    I am holding out for retirement ducks,  Muskovey in particular.
    They are said to taste like beef, but we don't eat  animals we know,  so I'll make do with eggs.
    I feel like duckweed is probably pretty balanced on the omega3/6 ratio.

    I wonder what is the best way to preserve meats for a carnivore diet?
    Confite seems like an obvious choice, as does salting.
    Drying and smoking also seem OK.
    Canning is a relative modern form of preservation.
    Hard to beat freezers for preserving nutrition.
    Is preserving meat in vinegar a thing?
    What about a lacto ferment😅
    Clearly some sort of fermentation happens when beef is aged.
    This leads me to a question I've had for a long time.
    Do all cultures bleed their carcasses, and if so, why?


     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    William Bronson wrote: Great post!
    The cholesterol information alone can be life changing.

    Animal wise, I'm in a urban setting,  but I would love sheep or cattle for the milk.
    When I think of goats, I think of escape artists who devour anything and everything.
    Pack goats do fascinate me, but that's for another thread.

    Geese are often overlooked as grass-fed animals.
    I've heard their harvest age coincides with their most annoying behavior.

    I am holding out for retirement ducks,  Muskovey in particular.
    They are said to taste like beef, but we don't eat  animals we know,  so I'll make do with eggs.
    I feel like duckweed is probably pretty balanced on the omega3/6 ratio.

    I wonder what is the best way to preserve meats for a carnivore diet?
    Confite seems like an obvious choice, as does salting.
    Drying and smoking also seem OK.
    Canning is a relative modern form of preservation.
    Hard to beat freezers for preserving nutrition.
    Is preserving meat in vinegar a thing?
    What about a lacto ferment😅
    Clearly some sort of fermentation happens when beef is aged.
    This leads me to a question I've had for a long time.
    Do all cultures bleed their carcasses, and if so, why?





    Your posts always start my brain whirring! HAHAHA

    I came here to post a super easy super good way to cook chuck roast which is currently the cheapest cut of meat I can get at the store.

    Confite?

    We are freezers. I mean, we tend to lean towards freezing partially because I have never canned and partially because hubby believes he can build a pyrolysis device that will give us all the fuel we need for our generators. We went with smaller redundant freezers for now but plan to build a combo freezer/cooler in a container eventually. Someone told me about this device for doing that well and relatively cheaply.
    CoolBot

    I do plan to learn how to can meat. And my husband likes to smoke but not on a large scale yet. I want some of smoking/drying/salting as an option for some of our meat. But that is all ahead for us to learn. I also want to know more about aging beef. And Dr. Chaffee does dry brining which I keep meaning to learn what he means by that but then I haven't thought of it during an opportune moment. Maybe I should do that RIGHT NOW and put it in the Chuck roast post.

    One of my friends has Runner ducks that she adores. Long distance friend so I haven't seen them.

    Keeping goats contained is what I hear most about them. I liked the wild goat situation - that sounds like a win win.

    And I have no idea about the bleeding but it certainly sounds like a worthwhile investigation...
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    At this current time, Chuck roast is the best value at my grocery store barring a sale or mark down.

    THIS is an absolutely SIMPLE and FABULOUS way to cook it.

    Just do NOT heat up your cast iron pan with a half inch of grease in it while you are distracted at the computer...that's gets a little too exciting.



     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    I think I just learned only one YT per post so I broke this one up into 3!

    I literally have a chuck roast in the oven as I type.
    It is one of my favorite carnivore meals.


    William's reply reminded me that I wanted to learn about the dry brining that Dr. Chaffee is always going on about.

    Okay, so not his best video as his voice can be soft and I couldn't quite understand him at the beginning, however, since he shows and tells, you get the idea.
    Pretty simple, take a steak or big a$$ chunk of meat, put plenty of salt on every surface. Then put it on a tray with a rack with no pieces touching and stick it in the fridge for a day or more. Gonna have to try it!



     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    How Do We Know What We Know?

    I'm not going to write a book. Or even a decent essay on this question. Especially since I figure anyone here who happens to read this already gets that a lot of common knowledge, as well as not so common knowledge, is based on suppositions and interpretations of data where oh so much can go wrong. Incomplete data, cherry picked data, even *gasp* made up data, poorly constructed studies, studies based on people remembering what they did yesterday or a year ago, cultural studies where language barriers and putting the best foot forward can throw everything off, etc. etc. etc. And that is before we get to profit making entities (or power seeking entities) paying for studies and REPUTATIONS that must be maintained at all costs.

    So how do we know what is good for our bodies?
    How do we decide what to put in our mouths?
    Our taste buds can give us hints but they can also be [all too easily] misled.
    And then there are times of famine, war and pestilence where one is just keeping body and soul together, not carefully calculating optimal health.

    This post is to set up the next couple/10, however many I get to, posts where the resource has something to do with Why are we eating what we eat and How can we know what is best.


    This is a preview of a documentary series called Food Lies.
    The driver of this project decided to take his time to (hopefully) end up with a high production level show.
    I will reference the YT video I was listening to when I learned about it but not as a link so you can copy/paste if you want.
    The link will be to a preview of the series.



    It's too bad he didn't get the help of Permies. Probably be all funded by now. LOL

     
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    I forgot the link of the video I was listening to while feeding up.

    Here it is - I haven't listened all the way through but I was enjoying it.

    Dr. Chaffee is talking to Brian Sanders about his documentary a year ago.




    Part of my story about what foods I think I should eat revolves around eggs. You see, I participated, a lot, in 4-H and FFA as a child up through high school. For those in other countries, 4-H stands for Head, Heart, Health and Hands and is based on community clubs where children can have projects to learn about all sorts of things including raising animals. Sometimes these animals are shown at fairs and such. FFA is for older school age kids and is done within the public schools and stands for Future Farmers of America which is quite descriptive.

    In both organizations, one of my favorite projects was chickens. I had chickens since a kindly elderly neighbor gave me two bantam chicks when I was 8 years old. Happened to be a hen and a roo (maybe she could tell, I only just realized that). My flock grew from there. One year in 4-H, I received 50 Rhode Island Reds as part of a coordinated project contest. I could not get starter feed so when the project contest came up 6 months later in the fall, my hens were in last place. However, the next spring, the same hens took Grand Champion at a regional (larger) fair.

    I also participated in poultry judging in both 4-H and FFA where you had to judge 4 hens and then tell why you placed them as you did. All that to say, when I started college, I put Poultry Science as my major. This didn't turn out to be my smartest life choice, but you can see how I got there. This was the very early 80s and I will never forget one of my professors spending 3 whole lectures on demolishing the "case against eggs" as they were going through one of the periodic demonizations. He called them Nature's Perfect Food in Nature's Perfect Packaging. Maybe a little oversell but it certainly was memorable. So no one has ever been able to convince me otherwise. I wish I could say the same about butter.
     
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    I promise I will post other videos besides Dr. Chaffee. This one simply fits my current theme and I listened to it last week.
    So what I will say about it is from memory as I simply don't have time to go back through it today.
    It is, however, fascinating.

    In this video, De. Chaffee is talking to Dr. Bill Schindler, a food anthropologist.
    This description is lifted from his website Eat Like A Human

    It’s not about WHAT we eat, but HOW we eat it.
    For 3.5 million years, humans never asked, “what should I be eating?” Instinctively, they knew what foods would satiate and nourish themselves and their communities. This power has been stripped from many of us by the modern industrial food system. We struggle to identify what a healthy human diet is. Our family has been fortunate to travel the globe researching ancestral diets and reclaiming the power to feed our family nutritious foods. We did the work and we are now ready to help empower you to eat like a human!  



    There is a short video on the front page that tells a little about Dr. Schindler.
    A lot of the discussion in the video is centered around his trip to Sardinia which I think is the first "blue Zone."

    From the video description:

    Many have been told, or saw on a Netflix special, that in the Blue Zones they live longer than any other population and predominantly eat plants; but is this actually true?  To explore this, I had my friend Dr Bill Schindler, PhD (retired professor of archeology and paleoanthropology at the University of Maryland, and author of the book "Eat Like a Human") back on the show to give his experience and expertise, as Dr Schindler had recently travelled to Sardinia to the epicenter of the first Blue Zone ever identified and saw that it was very different from what we've been told.



    How is it different? My takeaway is that when the study was done and the people asked how often they "eat meat," they said once a week.
    BUT they were referring to a large intricate BBQ - you really should heard Dr. Schindler describe the one he participated in, it is amazing, which happens weekly. The people though, eat meat they raised and preserved themselves DAILY.

    Some of the food preservation methods described are, ahem, unusual and maybe not for those weak of stomach. For example, there is cheese that is made in a baby goat stomach. And that is all I am going to say about that. There is also a type of cheese helped along by......maggots. Which you can eat said cheese with or without the little helpers. I'm telling you, it is something else. I would be surprised if you didn't hear more than one thing you didn't previously know/had heard about.




    So I looked down the comments seeing if anyone had posted Time Stamps and WOW - the comments are as interesting as the video. Bill is so enthusiastic about his work that it is catching and you can almost (ALMOST) imagine yourself there with him trying the maggot poop cheese. HAHAHA


    Here is the Blue Zone Paper

    I haven't read the whole thing though I was familiar with the term. I thought I should include it here. There is a lot of good in the 9 commonalities. It is simply that the diet part may be a tad misleading in some cases. Worth investigating for sure to my way of thinking.

    What began as a National Geographic expedition, lead by Dan Buettner, to uncover the secrets of longevity, evolved into the discovery of the 5 places around the world where people consistently live over 100 years old, dubbed the Blue Zones. Dan and his team of demographers, scientist and anthropologists were able to distill the evidence-based common denominators of these Blue Zones into 9 commonalities

     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    I know I said I would get in someone besides Dr. Chaffey.
    But then he goes and posts a fantabulous new video!

    Our guidelines aren't just wrong, they are corrupt. Even though Coca-Cola alone spends 11 times the amount of money on nutritional research than the NIH annually, it's not just the the Big Food companies behind it. Behind it from the beginning, and even founding some of the largest Big Food companies such as Kellogg's and Sanitarium Foods, lies another entity who has influenced the guidelines, the WHO, the McGovern Report, and even the curriculum of nutritionists and Lifestyle Medicine doctors. To find out more about these shady dealings and why you cannot trust even what is taught in nutritional science classes at major universities, you won't want to miss this presentation!



    I thought I knew a lot about this topic, however, I am halfway through and mind blown!

    No matter what you eat, you need to know the government recommendations are fake as...okay, I can't think of anything as fake as the Food Pyramid.

    It wouldn't be so bad if they were just wrong. Bad research. Unfortunate presuppositions. But it is not just wrong as in mistaken, it's wrong as in intentionally.

    If you don't have time to watch the video, I suggest you simply toss the pyramid, or anything like it from the government, and start with what food makes you feed good.



     
    William Bronson
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    My wife,  Becka , is going back to one of her first keto influnces for new inspiration.
    Sarah Hallberg, now deceased, was a successful physician focused on treating obesity.
    Her own diet was nearly vegetarian and low fat when she started her journey to keto.
    Here is a great place to start with her:


    Here is the second part, where she is speaking to her colleagues:


    She, like many doctors in this field was outraged at the bad science and outright lies that she had been taught.

    On a practical level, rewatching Dr Hallberg  is refocusing Becka's diet.
    The over all goal is to kick her weight loss back into gear.
    Most people seem to loses weight on keto, without counting calories or portion control, and that contributes greatly to sticking with the way of eating.
    Many people plateau at a certain point, and that is where my boo is at.
    Her olan is to lower her net calories by reducing her protein intake, relying more on fat for satiation, and including more veg for bulk.
    Im not sure what that will look like going forward, maybe more fried cabbage.
    I just bought  a Napa cabbage, and a dikon radish, plus some pork belly and loin.
    I cooked the pork on the same griddle that I d8d the smash burgers on.
    Here are the meats:


    16962993995192320772493627055379.jpg
    Skip the loin, even marinated in butter it's just OK.
    Skip the loin, even marinated in butter it
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    I am rooting for Becka!!!

    And I am listening to Dr. Sarah while replying. I pulled up a TED talk when I realized the video you posted wouldn't keep playing. I love how she talks about the prejudice against obesity when we have been given so much wrong information.

    I also wasn't "most people" - I had to count macros and portion control to lose weight on keto. I think her plan is sound. I pray that it works for her. The combination of satiety from fat and bulk from veggies could do it for her. The meat looks delicious and multiple kudos to you for being such a supportive husband. That makes a huge difference!!!

    I thought for 3-4 months that 20/4 Intermittent Fasting was going to be "my answer." While it wasn't, it did help set me up for success with what I am doing now because I am successful at bypassing a night snack. Weird because I was struggling to not eat at night while I was going hard on doing the 20/4 but now it is almost easy to not eat after my last meal.
     
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    This guy is a little...theatrical. However...he is a homesteading husband and dad who lost 100 lbs on carnivore. He is making a movie mostly of stories of people who have changed their lives by going carnivore. I don't know if he is a permie, but I do know that permies love people who go for their dream of changing the world and it sure looks like Kerry is doing just that.


    It was hard to pick a video and I am not posting this for information about carnivore, I basically wanted you to know about his project.


    Here is Kerry's Linktr.ee

    And here is the movie project GoFundMe

     
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    Have you noticed how careful you have to be relying on someone else's word for what certain "studies" reveal?

    Reasons for caution:
  • The perspective of the person or persons interpreting the data
  • The construction of the study
  • The care with which the study was carried out
  • Who paid for the study
  • Was the data cherry picked in favor of one conclusion


  • This is, by no means, an exhaustive list. And when you are looking at a meta-analysis, it all multiplies for good or not good.

    Meta-analysis is the statistical combination of results from two or more separate studies. Potential advantages of meta-analyses include an improvement in precision, the ability to answer questions not posed by individual studies, and the opportunity to settle controversies arising from conflicting claims. However, they also have the potential to mislead seriously, particularly if specific study designs, within-study biases, variation across studies, and reporting biases are not carefully considered.


    Source: Chapter 10 Cochrane Training


    This article about the risk of cancer from red meat examines the process and outcome by which the World Health Organization (WHO) proclaimed that red meat was a Class 2 carcinogen, and that processed meat was a Class 1 carcinogen in 2015. Many scientists disagreed with this assessment and only 50 of the 800 studies considered were used. Dr. Georgia Ede was particularly underwhelmed with the conclusions. This Article at her website explores her concerns in detail.

    It's particularly important to keep in mind that just like any way of eating, a whole food form of the diet is superior. I think you can assume that most of the studies up to now have not studied people who are only eating meat, salt, butter, eggs, maybe some dairy and water for their daily substenance. Any form of human diet that includes a substantial amount of junk or non-foods is going to affect health negatively. It is simple to eat a lot of junk on any kind of diet, even vegan.


    Here is the article that prompted my post written by Dr. Shawn Baker.
    The Red Meat Cancer Risk Doesn't Add Up

    Let’s assume that the weak evidence that the WHO used was sufficient to suggest a true relative risk increase in cancer of 18 percent. What does that mean? Well, the generally accepted lifetime risk of developing colon cancer is about 4 percent. If the WHO is correct, that risk goes to 5 percent. In other words, based on the data that supports the WHO’s claim, there’s a whopping 1 percent increase in absolute risk. This is one of the classic statistical numbers games used to scare people from consuming something that someone doesn’t like for various reasons.  



    One of the main reasons that I am passionate about this new way of eating of mine is that it has all but erased my sugar cravings. I have no issue admitting that I am addicted to sugar in all its forms - by that I mean simple carbs like bread as well as candy, cookies and ice cream. If I had known how powerful this diet would act on that addiction, I'd been carnivore a long time ago. By comparison, a strict ketogenic diet of 20 net grams of carbs or less, and most of those some type of vegetable, did NOT do that for me. I have gotten off sugar for as long as several months but the cravings never went away and a very bad day would eventually do me in.


    I am not assuming that is everyone's experience. But it has been mine and it is the central reason why I believe that I will stay carnivore for life. The WHO would have to do a lot more to convince me that I am increasing my risk of cancer by eating red meat when I have been able to give up the chips, cookies and ice cream.


    Three pounds of fat released this week, HURRAY! Not my focus, honestly and truly this time, but a lovely bonus.
     
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    What is Dirty Carnivore?



    A common question I see asked, and usually answered incompletely, is what is dirty carnivore?

    That's because it doesn't have a simple answer. It can mean different things to different people. Most WOEs (Way of Eating) have strict forms and non-strict forms, the latter of which has often been called dirty. Because of individual variations, some people can "get away with" or even succeed with the dirty form of the WOE. Other people, absolutely not. And if those people do the dirty form, they may be mistaken that the WOE doesn't "work" for them for whatever objective they were hoping to achieve.


    What is the Dirty Carnivore Diet? Dr Kiltz


    The article goes into more detail (and Dr. Kiltz is one of my 3 favorite carnivore doctors) but in simple form, dirty carnivore consists of consuming one or more of the following frequently:
  • Fruit
  • Honey
  • Greens
  • Fast food/highly processed food
  • Fermented foods



  • The one thing on that list that we are doing is honey. I keep it under a T a day for myself. My husband can have 1/4 or 1/3 cup and be fine. I am pretty sure it was the leafy greens on the keto diet that were slowly killing me. I must be very sensitive to the oxylates or something.

    We were into fermented foods. I was learning how to do my own ferments. I am not trying to talk anyone out of fermenting food. It is simply not considered a carnivore food. Carnivore doctors, etc, approach the idea of the microbiome differently than what I had previously been reading in the last 5 years. That would necessitate more research for me to comment informatively on that.

    Some doctors indicate that a carnivore diet made up of some processed meats (ie hotdogs) is superior to a whole food organic vegan diet. I am not about to try to tout that, however, in our particular experience, we have reason to believe it may be true. We are fortunate to have started with our own meat in the freezer though it was majority pork at the time.

    My husband has eaten some fruit. His constitution is in all ways more robust than mine. He did have to cut back on the sweets in order to lose weight and he is not continuing eating fruit. He will continue eating honey. I may have to give it up completely.


    The article then looks at drawbacks to dirty carnivore and the first one is key for me.

    Emotional Eating and Carb Addiction

    In modern Western society, food is often used as a drug to soothe, numb, and suppress unwanted or uncomfortable feelings. [3]

    For many people with an addictive relationship to food, following Dirty Carnivore is simply the addictive part of the brain rationalizing the continued use of food as a drug.






    I have personally struggled with carb addiction. It took me a while to recognize it as such. I have never smoked or been much of a drinker or done more than dabble in other things. But sugar and sugary foods?? Oh my goodness. For me this next part has been critical.

    High-carb foods activate opiate and dopamine receptors in the brain. [4] Repeatedly stimulating these reward centers can reset your body fat levels, resulting in intense carb cravings whenever you begin to loose weight. [5] [6]

    For most people doing the carnivore diet successfully requires cutting all carbs for at least 30-90 days. It takes this long for the brain to rewire its habitual reward circuitry and rebalance the hormones that drive food cravings.



    Of course, I already said I am still eating a little honey. The key thing is this is not causing me to crave more carbs. I "want" that little bit of sweet but it is nowhere near the horrible cravings I am used to experiencing for cookies, ice cream, chips or pasta (at various times). Someone else might have to not have the honey either. N=1

    The next part talks about Anti-Nutrients and Plant Toxins. That probably needs a post to itself. It mentions fruit and how our modern fruit is not at all like fruit was "in the wild" so to speak. Lastly, it talks about how Vitamin C is adequate on a carnivore diet. Again, I may do a whole post on this as I need to research it further for myself. I have used high dose vitamin C in the past and thought I experienced good results with it.

    Til next time...



     
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    Karen Lee Mack wrote:[size=24]The next part talks about Anti-Nutrients and Plant Toxins. That probably needs a post to itself. It mentions fruit and how our modern fruit is not at all like fruit was "in the wild" so to speak.

    "Fruit Creep" is a real thing. Nutritionists will tell you that most of the nutrition in an apple is the layer right below the skin. Math tells me that the larger the radius of a sphere, that larger the volume will be as a ratio of the surface area. So, yes, a large apple will have more of the nutritious part than a small apple, but will have proportionately more of the non-nutritious part. When I was a kid, apples were half the size they are today. So more nutrition/volume. That's everywhere today.

    Just think of the difference between wild blueberries and modern, commercial cultivars? This impacts behavior. If it takes you a long time to find and pick berries, you're less likely to over eat them.

    A friend of mine's son was recently diagnosed with a gut problem which has forced him to stop eating all grains and a number of other things. He's been doing a lot of research into certain food additives which he feels in contributing to many problems because they make the stomach and gut "leakier" to things that otherwise wouldn't get through. I think it's important for people to listen to their bodies and try different things and try to document things well, so they're able to narrow down what may be contributing to ill health. I think the high levels of obesity in North America make it pretty obvious that we're doing something wrong, however the solution will not necessarily be the same for every human.
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Jay Angler wrote:

    Karen Lee Mack wrote:[size=24]The next part talks about Anti-Nutrients and Plant Toxins. That probably needs a post to itself. It mentions fruit and how our modern fruit is not at all like fruit was "in the wild" so to speak.

    "Fruit Creep" is a real thing. Nutritionists will tell you that most of the nutrition in an apple is the layer right below the skin. Math tells me that the larger the radius of a sphere, that larger the volume will be as a ratio of the surface area. So, yes, a large apple will have more of the nutritious part than a small apple, but will have proportionately more of the non-nutritious part. When I was a kid, apples were half the size they are today. So more nutrition/volume. That's everywhere today.

    Just think of the difference between wild blueberries and modern, commercial cultivars? This impacts behavior. If it takes you a long time to find and pick berries, you're less likely to over eat them.

    A friend of mine's son was recently diagnosed with a gut problem which has forced him to stop eating all grains and a number of other things. He's been doing a lot of research into certain food additives which he feels in contributing to many problems because they make the stomach and gut "leakier" to things that otherwise wouldn't get through. I think it's important for people to listen to their bodies and try different things and try to document things well, so they're able to narrow down what may be contributing to ill health. I think the high levels of obesity in North America make it pretty obvious that we're doing something wrong, however the solution will not necessarily be the same for every human.



    Interesting! I thought most of the nutrition was there below the skin but it didn't occur to me that would mean larger fruit equals both more nutrition and more non-nutritious parts. We were eating fruit up to going on a carnivore diet. WOW, some are so sweet. We looked forward to a special cherry (the name is eluding me) in the fall that is like eating candy.

    We have a white mulberry that fruits in the spring. The berries taste nice if a little bland and very lightly sweet. Probably closer to what a fruit was before intensive breeding. I don't want to sound dismissive, some of the ways that humans have been able to manipulate their environment is simply grand and I do love sweet crispy apples. I've simply had to recognize that they were feeding my sugar addiction so giving them up, at least for now.

    I hope I do not come across as thinking everyone should do a certain WOE though I am sure I do at times in my excitement. I truly do believe that every body is different and circumstances are different. i was just trying to explain to someone, not a homesteader, why I simply could not give up the dairy that we literally got flowing the same week we went carnivore. Or why we are eating a lot of pork (that is what is in the freezer). I expect people who are doing well on their current WOE probably aren't reading this thread. I have eaten a lot of different ways and I remember the reasons for each one.

    As you commented, it is obvious we are doing something wrong, in general, with our common diets. I don't buy that people are simply lazy and gluttonous. Some maybe, but my own experiences have taught me that you can be trying your very hardest to do the wrong thing. And if your mind and spirit is depressed, it makes it all the hardest to get up and go. That carnivore is actually easy for me is, for me, a telling sign (lol can't figure out how to fix that sentence).
    And since it is currently The Road Less Taken, hence my hopefully encouraging and informative posts.
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Common Side Effects of Carnivore Diets

    Especially during adaptation period


    Last week, I experienced one of these side effects. I will tell you about it at the end. It prompted me to find this excellent article by Dr. Kiltz that seems to agree with what else I have read or watched on the subject.

    7 Most Common Carnivore Diet Side Effect & How to Overcome Them


    Whoops - just saw that while it is on Dr. Kiltz' site, the actual author is Liam McAuliffe - Updated on January 6, 2023.


    #1 Diarrhea

    This is usually due to eliminating plant fiber - which is to say all fiber since animal foods do not have fiber - and increasing fat consumption.

    I know that it has been drilled into our collective consciousness that fiber, both soluble and insoluble, is absolutely essential for bowel health. Carnivore doctors look at this differently. They believe that plant fiber is just as likely to increase (feed) harmful strains of bacteria in the gut as the "good guys." They also do not think the cleansing effect of fiber is necessary. Of course, this is a rather dramatic change that can result in either diarrhea or issue #2 constipation.

    In order for your body to successfully deal with the uptick of fat consumption, a couple of things need to happen.
  • The production of bile must increase as bile is critical to fat digestion.
  • Stomach enzymes, including lipase and amylase, also need to upregulate.


  • Three possible fixes:
  • Hydrate including salt.
  • Stop dairy for 30 days.
  • Use ox bile supplements.

  • Ox Bile supplement is how folks who have had their gall bladders out do carnivore. You want to go easy if you still have your gall bladder so that you are supporting during transition but still allowing your own production to increase.


    #2 Constipation

    Of course, it only makes sense that you can also get the flip side. The reasons are basically the same - your body adapting to a radically different way of eating. It is critical to note that good bowel movements on carnivore are not going to be the same as on a plant based diet. There will be less to excrete. The general idea is that you need to eat enough fat that not all of it is fully digested so that your stools will stay soft. Therefore, typically you will only go once a day or every other day, maybe longer. The key point is that it is soft and easy to expell. If so, great. If not, then you are constipated. To repeat, if the stool is soft and easily expelled but not diarrhea, you're good.

    Over time your microbiome will rebalance and the stomach enzymes responsible for processing fat will upregulate and allow your body to digest fatty meals more quickly. [5]



  • Again hydrate - more water and more salt.
  • Again, you can try eliminating dairy during adaptation.
  • Eat more fat, less protein - about 70% fat.
  • Supplement with 400 mg of magnesium citrate.
  • Drink bone broth.
  • Gentle exercise like walking.

  • Caution on the broth - it can dull your appetite where you don't eat enough fat. I think I will do a whole post on eating fat as it is has been a challenge for me and for a lot of other people.


    #3 Nausea

    I don't see a good way to summarize this one so here is a quote.

    Like the above symptoms, nausea is likely a result of:

    Changes in your microbiome after sugar and fibers are eliminated.
    Eating a dramatically different diet before your digestive enzymes have upregulated to efficiently break down and assimilate the new abundance of fats and complex proteins.
    Dehydration resulting from you body flushing fluids as you transition into ketosis.



    As with the other issues, this is often a side effect of dehydration as the process of your body adapting flushes many fluids.

    To rebalance electrolytes consume 12 grams (2 tsp) of salt per day in the first few days of adapting to carnivore. Once adapted, it’s recommended that you consume at least 5 grams (1tsp) daily to avoid constipation and other symptoms like headache and constipation. [7]



    #4: Feeling Hungry and Craving Sugar

    I'm thankful that this is one I definitely did not experience!
    Best fix is...yes, eating more fat. Fat is satiating.

    Another cause is that the little critters in your microbiome that feed off sugar get very hungry before they die and send out strong signals. Eating nutrient dense animal foods like ribeye, lamb, sardines, and eggs will help speed you through this part. Eating leaner hamburger? Top it with butter or ghee!

    Reduce Stress! Get enough sleep, do gentle exercise (the emphasis on gentle is to not stress the body further) and breathe. In time, this WOE will rebalance your hunger and full hormones and your cravings will disappear and become just plain wants.


    #5: Leg Cramps

    Common in the early days, this is yet another possible effect of the body flushing some fluids and working to rebalance itself.

    In addition to the refrain of Hydration and Eating enough Salt, the article points out that seafood is high in magnesium, one of the key elements. We can get a very nice mineral water where we live and we find this also helps our bodies stay balanced.

    If you use homeopathy, #8 Cell Salt Mag Phos 6X works a treat on leg cramps.


    #6: Bad Breath

    This is usually a result of your body going into ketosis. The ketones can create unpleasant mouth odors. You are not necessarily in ketosis on a carnivore diet all the time so it is not as likely as when someone goes on a ketogenic diet. Counterintuitive, yes. Time, hydration and extra dental hygiene are your best fixes.


    #7:Heart Palpitations

    Heart palpitations, flutters, or an increase in stroke volume on carnivore are common during the transition period. Like most other side effects, heart palpitations are a result of low electrolytes.

    All versions of high-fat low-carb diets cause insulin levels to drop, triggering the kidneys to excrete more sodium. Low sodium disrupts levels of magnesium and potassium. [17]



    THIS is the side effect I experienced last week. It was scary. It came on quick and strong along with a feeling of vertigo and a little nausea.
    And yes, I spent the first 20 seconds wondering if I was having a heart attack.
    Then common sense asserted itself and I thought First Hydrate. For me that means a dose of cell salt #9 Nat mur 6X as it is a water balancing cell salt and I often use it as a first line against headaches. Then I got a glass of water with Redmond's real salt and started googling. That is how I found this article and was delighted to see I was on the right track. Then I laid down. It did take a good 30 minutes for me to feel okay again. I realized I had been lacksadaisical about salting my water. That stopped and it hasn't happened again.

    When on Blood Pressure Medication
    Cutting carbs tends to improve blood pressure for most people.

    This can reduce the need for medication, or require an adjustment of dosage.

    A symptom prior to dosage adjustment can be heart palpitations.  One of the symptoms of this can be an increased pulse and heart palpitations.



    If I were on this type of med, I would definitely discuss this WOE with my doctor prior to starting.

    How to Fix it
    The key to alleviating heart palpitations is to drink plenty of water, add more salt, and supplement with magnesium and potassium if needed.

    If you are experiencing palpitations while taking medications on a high fat low carb or carnivore diet, then it’s best to check with your doctor or find a carnivore-savvy doctor who can help you adjust or discontinue medications.




    For most people, going carnivore is a big change for the body. It is not surprising there would be side effects.
    Note the common themes:
  • Drink enough water
  • Eat enough salt
  • Use additional electrolytes if necessary, preferably without added sweeteners (but use what you have).
  • Get sleep.
  • Get gentle movement. Start walking or gentle restorative yoga if sedentary. Cut back workout intensity for a time if you are highly active.








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    This is all very insightful! Thank you Karen :)

    I didn't read every post here, but I especially liked some of the points on the last one.

    I was going to say, I can tell from my latest pregnancy, how important a carnivore (or in my case, a protein) diet can be.

    I literally could barely eat any carbs in my whole pregnancy because it would make me SO nauseous. It took me some time to realize this and adjust my diet as I wasn't going to go cold turkey carnivore while I was pregnant. But maybe next time I should, hmm....

    I learned in 2021 that I in particular need a good bit of salt so I take sole water (salt dissolved in water to its saturation point). This knowledge unfortunately cam after I essentially poisoned myself with taking a supplement that was high in potassium. Oops. After this event I seem to either A) be extra sensitive to potassium or B) I'm just aware of it now where as before I had no idea what was making me feel weird.

    I think a combination of the two.

    In fact, with my latest pregnancy, I had to go to the hospital to stop preterm labor (a symptom of dehydration) after I was 'spiking' my water with watermelon juice. (high in potassium)
    So that was just another verification that potassium is a no no for me.

    Recently I got lazy on taking my salt as you said you did and my old palpitations from 2021 have come back slightly. And despite my being half your age... I know all too well that fear of having a heart attack but it's just your heart rate freaking out from electrolyte imbalance.

    I also went in and out of being on the salt during my pregnancy... I'm really praying next time goes a lot smoother if I pound the protein and salt more heavily. As for now I'm not doing carnivore because it kind of drove me crazy while I was pregnant and I have no idea how I'd afford such a diet.

    I got tired of eating the same foods over and over, but maybe that's because I didn't go full force carnivore? I was just following the midwife's orders of eating as much protein as I could. (This also meant a lot of dairy)
     
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    Working out what works for me as well. Dairy is definitely not my friend. I hope you continue to have success!
     
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    Yes, yes, yes!

    We need to talk about raising a carnivore diet on small properties!  It's easy enough if you have five or ten acres; if you are working with two acres or less, it gets a lot more difficult.  

    We started carnivore about a year ago, but it was very off-and-on for a while, for several reasons.  ('We' is myself, 66 year old female, and my 43 year old youngest daughter, who is severely handicapped.  We both have multiple autoimmune conditions; she is autistic, and has lupus, celiac disease, vitiligo, Sjogren's syndrome, spina bifida occulta, neurogenic bladder, and is mentally handicapped.  I have celiac disease, fibromyalgia, arthritis, psoriasis, Sjogren's syndrome, Hashimoto's.)  We've been (mostly) gluten-free for thirty years.  I've been overweight most of my adult life, with obvious metabolic syndrome.  I've done low-carb before, and knew it helped, but it was hard to stick to it (there's such a thing as 'carb creep').  Over the last few years, I'd seen mention of carnivore, and thought that was pretty extreme, but the people doing it really thought it was helping them (in particular, Justin Rhodes, who has lyme disease).  Complicating factors, last year my brother and his wife moved in 'next door,' actually their new house is in what used to be our front yard.  I love having them here, but his wife is a good cook, and doesn't really 'get' our diet restrictions.  So we'd been eating things we shouldn't have been -- way too many carbs, and nightshades, in particular.  By about this time last year I was in so much pain I was about ready to go to the ER -- except, I thought, I'll try that carnivore diet first.  Because I KNEW what was causing the pain -- it was inflammation from what we were eating.  

    Within 48 hours of starting carnivore, my pain levels were bearable again, though it took a while to go away completely.  I stuck to carnivore pretty tightly for a few weeks, and felt better than I had in many years.  But my daughter was struggling.  She wanted yogurt, and fruit, and other things that she shouldn't be eating.  For several years, she's been struggling with severe weight loss -- she'll be able to eat one day, but can't eat anything at all the next day, and sometimes can't eat for two or three days in a row.  She was down under a hundred pounds at one point (and isn't much over that now).  She's small, 5'2" and fine-boned, but that's still too low.  So I didn't want to take foods away from her that she was willing to eat.  And if they were in the house, I ate them, too.  I also struggled initially with fatigue and nausea -- I dealt with the nausea by eating a few bites of something like cooked cabbage, or sauerkraut.  But then on the first of April I had emergency gallbladder surgery (I'd been having gallbladder attacks off and on for years, just didn't know what they were).  Recovery from that set me back quite a bit, but I do feel much better without that sick gallbladder.  

    In the meantime, my daughter was gradually adapting better to eating meat, which has never been her favorite food.  And I was seeing other tiny but incremental improvements.  Also in the meantime, we both took home food sensitivity tests (you drop some of your blood on a test card and send it in).  I asked our doctor how accurate these tests are, and she said, "Very.  Especially the blood tests, like you took."  The worst foods for both of us were chicken eggs and cow milk.  This was a setback, because we had chickens, and I was raising a Jersey heifer in hopes of milking her in a couple of years (I've had dairy goats most of the last forty years, but have never milked a cow).  I have several Nigerian Dwarf goats, but haven't milked them much.  So I swapped out the chickens for Ancona ducks, and sold both of my calves.  We are also somewhat sensitive to goat milk, but making it into kefir or yogurt reduces the problems; sheep milk would be fine, but I'm almost as sensitive to sheep meat as to cow milk.  And I'm not sure I want to milk sheep, anyway, so will stick with goats for now.

    We have some rabbit cages, but I'm not sure about the nutritional value of rabbit meat as compared to red meat from ruminants.  Our food tests didn't test for sensitivities to goat or rabbit meat, either, so I actually don't know if they are any better.  Still, I think I'll see if I can find some meat rabbit breeding stock next year.  Rabbits and the goats can be kept with very little purchased feed if necessary.  

    At this point, I'm pretty sure that we are going to have to be mostly-carnivore forever.  So I've been looking over my kitchen, my tools and equipment, and contemplating what changes to make there.  And I've been seriously considering, how do we raise as much of our carnivore diet as possible on the slightly less than two acres of pasture/yard currently available?  I can buy hay from the neighbors, but grain has to be purchased at a feed store.  We only have a small fenced garden area (32' x 52'), plus a small paddock on my brother's side of the property that's probably about 30' x 80-100' where we could raise a few things that need more space (like winter squash).  I currently have four Nigerian Dwarf does and a mini-Nubian buck -- I'm thinking I'll add one or two larger does, maybe Kiko or part Boer, because the ND's are not only tiny, they don't grow very fast.  I want goat kids that are big enough to butcher in one season, so I don't have to keep them over the winter.  

    Of course, hunting is another possibility -- we could probably get permission to hunt on the cow pasture that surrounds our property, and maybe in our next-door neighbor's 24 acres of woods.  

    I did try quail earlier this year -- had aggression issues with them (killing each other).  I could try them again, but they, like the ducks, need mostly store-bought feed.  They are probably one of the better options for people in urban areas, though.

    And muscovy ducks -- I got some of those two years ago; they hung around for a while, then disappeared.  We have a small pond which houses at least one large snapping turtle, and I'm pretty sure the turtle got most of their ducklings.  If you can keep them around, though, they will mostly feed themselves, and reproduce very well, making an excellent meat source.  I'm quite sensitive to both turkey and chicken meat, but not to duck meat (goose wasn't on the test, but they'd be another good animal to keep that mostly feeds itself).  

    All that to say, this is a discussion that needs to be had, because some of us just aren't going to be in good functional health on a plant-based diet.  And the way the political climate is blowing, meat (especially red meat) is going to become less available and more expensive, so if we want to have it available, we will need to grow our own.  But we don't all have a farm to raise food on -- and none of us wants to raise our meat in feedlot conditions.  
     
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    A lot of the benefit to a Keto diet is due to the influence on your endocrine system.

    Keto has its place but you may not want to do it long term when it's most likely your endocrine system being off is why you're getting dramatic effects initially.

    Best endocrine repair advice I've found came from Ray Peat, who was a multi discipline biologist, endocrinologist, and life long researcher with a focus on mitochondrial function and enhancing that.
    Ray died a few years ago and that's too bad because he was one of the very few  high level research people  who was putting his info out there for everyday folks in actionable steps.
    Everything I've tried on his advice has worked, with the caveat that a lot of it is test and tune but he gives you a starting point and you can take it from there.

    I've been interested in endocrine issues because I fried my systems via toxics from the work i did, mechanical repair. I was careless (and not as much was known or publicized) about the effects of things like solvents back in the 70s and 80s.
    The toxic storm we're exposed to today in food and other products is almost as bad.
    Almost everyone is hypothyroid from this...undiagnosed because the blood tests don't tell the whole story.

    Anyway, here's some reading on Ray Peats' stuff:

    On Keto -  this is also a great forum to find specific info via search
    https://raypeatforum.com/community/search/1129778/?q=keto+diet&o=relevance

    Overview -
    https://impero.substack.com/p/raypeat

    some of his articles -
    https://raypeat.com/articles/

    A good site for finding toxinless products, supplements, etc - -
    https://www.toxinless.com








     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Kathleen, you really get what I am talking about with Carnivore Homesteading.
    It changes the questions you ask and why you are asking them.
    And yes, I am concerned about what people can do in all the situations. I believe any step towards providing some of your own food is good. But when you take vegetables out of the picture, the options narrow dramatically.

    First of all, I just want to say I do understand how hard it is with other people around doing different things, especially if they are a good cook!! On one hand I do wish I had known more of this raising my children, on the other hand, just being me and my husband and us both doing it is SO SO SO much simpler than if there were anyone else involved. My grown kids just smile because they have been through a number of dietary changes with me but they are also definitely watching to see how we do.

    This almost makes a big difference in the cost. Because we have, and do, raise most of our meat currently, my grocery store bill has gone way down. This would not be true if I was still having to buy other food for other people. I am also VERY relieved that we are tolerating the dairy as you probably saw my Jersey heifer literally calved the same week we went carnivore. Now, we might do better without the dairy, but it is there and she is A1/A2 which some people think is almost as good as A2/A2, and of course, it is fresh and raw.

    I am homesteading on 1/2 acre but that is expensive. I do have to buy all the hay and feed for the cow and the pig and much of the feed for the rabbits and the chickens (I absolutely cannot free range them). That will change when we make our move to Georgia but we wll also have more land Lord Willing.

    On rabbits - back when I was doing an AutoImmune Protocol diet, I was told that most people are not allergic to rabbit meat. That could be because most people haven't eaten rabbit meat. It is possible the most lean meat which is not necessarily great for carnivore. However, fat can be added. I am currently mixing ground rabbit with beef or pork. The shredded rabbit I used to mix with mayo, I am now cooking in a pan with butter. A lot of butter. I've tried several ways of making carnivore mayo (I had been making my own mayo) but none have really been pleasing so far. The most successful was made with butter but really wasn't better than just butter and my little flock of chickens makes just enough eggs for us and my grown kids that live near.

    So even though rabbit is not the ideal carnivore meat, I would definitely keep them in the mix of choices for a carnivore homestead since they can be raised almost anywhere, with a minimal investment comparatively speaking and can be prolific. They can possibly be raised on just forage depending on the resources at hand. I was feeding mine close to 50% forage until the drought the last two years. It really set my willow trees back this year. Though my mulberry trees did okay. Both are excellent, high protein, forage for rabbits.

    I'm going to read your post again.
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Hi Rebecca! It is interesting that you ended up nearly carnivore during your pregnancy.

    I find the idea of being limited on food choices is worse than the reality.
    Again, I am in a household of two so I am not having to acquire, look at, or cook food I can't have. And yes, there are times when I don't want any of the options I do have. Though for me right now, that is more a signal that I am not really hungry as I have quite a bit of fat to lose and it seems that the more my body adapts to this way of eating, the more I have times when I am just not needing to eat. I have talked to several "experts" who all say to now trust my hunger cues. I was concerned about not eating enough but I am feeling more comfortable that my hunger hormones are healing.

    I don't know if this is true for everyone but I personally did not lose the craving for carbs until I got all of them out of my diet. I still have a little from dairy (I do not drink the milk but I figure that likely my homemade butter, etc, may yet have some milk protein and carbs) and I do have about a T of honey a day included in carnivore ice cream or something like that. I think about things I used to eat, and love, like pasta. I remember that I loved it but then I remember how I felt and finally, for me, the feeling better is so much stronger than the want for the food. I thought I had experienced this before but it was definitely not on this level.

    We are homebodies and have not traveled since this change. We don't miss eating out AT ALL. I used to think about food a lot. If I went out for errands, I would always be considering getting a coffee or a milk shake or some other treat. Even though I often talked myself out of it, usually because I didn't want to spend the money, I was still thinking about it. Now I don't. I don't think about getting something like that when I am out at all. It is truly incredible to me.

    What I haven't faced is going somewhere, like to someone's house for dinner, and being faced with fresh hot rolls or etc. We will see. I hope that after we heal more completely and get down to a normal body weight and all that, that we can possibly have other foods on occasion as I really don't like to be that person who shows up and says they can't eat this or that!

     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Hi Nola! Feel free to come here anytime. Happy to discuss options and encourage. I encourage myself by encouraging others - that has always been my best source of inspiration.
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Kathleen Sanderson wrote:Yes, yes, yes!


    Within 48 hours of starting carnivore, my pain levels were bearable again, though it took a while to go away completely.  I stuck to carnivore pretty tightly for a few weeks, and felt better than I had in many years.  But my daughter was struggling.  She wanted yogurt, and fruit, and other things that she shouldn't be eating.  For several years, she's been struggling with severe weight loss -- she'll be able to eat one day, but can't eat anything at all the next day, and sometimes can't eat for two or three days in a row.  She was down under a hundred pounds at one point (and isn't much over that now).  She's small, 5'2" and fine-boned, but that's still too low.  So I didn't want to take foods away from her that she was willing to eat.  And if they were in the house, I ate them, too.  I also struggled initially with fatigue and nausea -- I dealt with the nausea by eating a few bites of something like cooked cabbage, or sauerkraut.  But then on the first of April I had emergency gallbladder surgery (I'd been having gallbladder attacks off and on for years, just didn't know what they were).  Recovery from that set me back quite a bit, but I do feel much better without that sick gallbladder.  



    Do you have to take ox bile now?

    I was listening to a Dr. Chaffee Q&A this morning and I missed the Q but in his answer he was talking about eating whatever kind of meat you can and is available. Oh wait, I think the person was having an issue with really high iron levels so her doctor did not want her to eat red meat. Anyway, Dr. Chaffee is big on "beef and water" as that is what he does personally and talks a lot about ruminant meat being best. So I was encouraged to hear him say, very strongly, that she could eat other kinds of meat, seafood, etc. We still have a pig to process and no beef available except from the store. I tried to find where I could buy a quarter or something but the local ranchers are sold out (drought being part of that).

    Goats are ruminants so I think your plan to add some larger ones is good. Now they are one thing I have never raised so I am clueless though they are under consideration for the first time ever for our homestead because of the change. lol. There are a lot of goats around here but - and this is only something I've been told - most are raised near the males and that makes them taste stronger? we need to cut back on animals rather than add them until we get the move accomplished. And then I am hoping to have pasture to always have a steer going.

    One of my rabbit friends, not local, has runner ducks that she raves about. I am not sure what the difference is as I don't want to add ducks right now, but definitely a consideration for the future. I think she has even sold their eggs long distance. Very popular right now.

    All that to say, this is a discussion that needs to be had, because some of us just aren't going to be in good functional health on a plant-based diet.  And the way the political climate is blowing, meat (especially red meat) is going to become less available and more expensive, so if we want to have it available, we will need to grow our own.  But we don't all have a farm to raise food on -- and none of us wants to raise our meat in feedlot conditions.  



    YES YES YES
    This is exactly where I am coming from!!! And I am thinking that good functional health is critical in bad times. And for those like your daughter already struggling, need to have the best health possible. And with the best possible will, I spent many years on plant based diets, one year totally raw food vegan, and it simply does not do well for me. Especially my mental health. I learned that a couple decades ago, that animal protein was essential for my brain that has depression issues from both genetic and childhood issues.
     
    Karen Lee Mack
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    Dave Bross wrote:A lot of the benefit to a Keto diet is due to the influence on your endocrine system.

    Keto has its place but you may not want to do it long term when it's most likely your endocrine system being off is why you're getting dramatic effects initially.

    Best endocrine repair advice I've found came from Ray Peat, who was a multi discipline biologist, endocrinologist, and life long researcher with a focus on mitochondrial function and enhancing that.
    Ray died a few years ago and that's too bad because he was one of the very few  high level research people  who was putting his info out there for everyday folks in actionable steps.
    Everything I've tried on his advice has worked, with the caveat that a lot of it is test and tune but he gives you a starting point and you can take it from there.

    I've been interested in endocrine issues because I fried my systems via toxics from the work i did, mechanical repair. I was careless (and not as much was known or publicized) about the effects of things like solvents back in the 70s and 80s.
    The toxic storm we're exposed to today in food and other products is almost as bad.
    Almost everyone is hypothyroid from this...undiagnosed because the blood tests don't tell the whole story.

    Anyway, here's some reading on Ray Peats' stuff:

    On Keto -  this is also a great forum to find specific info via search
    https://raypeatforum.com/community/search/1129778/?q=keto+diet&o=relevance

    Overview -
    https://impero.substack.com/p/raypeat

    some of his articles -
    https://raypeat.com/articles/

    A good site for finding toxinless products, supplements, etc - -
    https://www.toxinless.com



    Thank you Dave, I had not heard of Ray Peat. I will check out his information.

    I am sure that a lot of the benefits I am experiencing is healing of hormones, etc.
    Dysfuntion at the mitochondria is a huge part of our lack of health. Somewhere I was listening and the person was noting a study where dysfunctional mitochrondria were placed in healthy cells and it caused the whole cell to be dysfunctional while placing healthy mitochondria in unhealthy cells was reversed, the cells become healthy. That is probably way over simplified but was the general idea.

     
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    I thought this was called a Ranch.  Or maybe Ranching.   Such a great word.

    I also find it funny when doctors go on about dietary and nutritional facts, apparently unaware that "Diet Coke and Oreos" is not the same thing as "Tempeh and Spirulina."  A critical distinction indeed

     
    Kathleen Sanderson
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    John Hutter wrote:I thought this was called a Ranch.  Or maybe Ranching.   Such a great word.

    I also find it funny when doctors go on about dietary and nutritional facts, apparently unaware that "Diet Coke and Oreos" is not the same thing as "Tempeh and Spirulina."  A critical distinction indeed



    I would literally die on a diet of tempeh and spirulina.  If you can eat that stuff and stay healthy, more power to you, but it won't work for a lot of people.
     
    Kathleen Sanderson
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    Karen Lee Mack wrote:

    Kathleen Sanderson wrote:Yes, yes, yes!


    Within 48 hours of starting carnivore, my pain levels were bearable again, though it took a while to go away completely.  I stuck to carnivore pretty tightly for a few weeks, and felt better than I had in many years.  But my daughter was struggling.  She wanted yogurt, and fruit, and other things that she shouldn't be eating.  For several years, she's been struggling with severe weight loss -- she'll be able to eat one day, but can't eat anything at all the next day, and sometimes can't eat for two or three days in a row.  She was down under a hundred pounds at one point (and isn't much over that now).  She's small, 5'2" and fine-boned, but that's still too low.  So I didn't want to take foods away from her that she was willing to eat.  And if they were in the house, I ate them, too.  I also struggled initially with fatigue and nausea -- I dealt with the nausea by eating a few bites of something like cooked cabbage, or sauerkraut.  But then on the first of April I had emergency gallbladder surgery (I'd been having gallbladder attacks off and on for years, just didn't know what they were).  Recovery from that set me back quite a bit, but I do feel much better without that sick gallbladder.  



    Do you have to take ox bile now?

    I was listening to a Dr. Chaffee Q&A this morning and I missed the Q but in his answer he was talking about eating whatever kind of meat you can and is available. Oh wait, I think the person was having an issue with really high iron levels so her doctor did not want her to eat red meat. Anyway, Dr. Chaffee is big on "beef and water" as that is what he does personally and talks a lot about ruminant meat being best. So I was encouraged to hear him say, very strongly, that she could eat other kinds of meat, seafood, etc. We still have a pig to process and no beef available except from the store. I tried to find where I could buy a quarter or something but the local ranchers are sold out (drought being part of that).

    Goats are ruminants so I think your plan to add some larger ones is good. Now they are one thing I have never raised so I am clueless though they are under consideration for the first time ever for our homestead because of the change. lol. There are a lot of goats around here but - and this is only something I've been told - most are raised near the males and that makes them taste stronger? we need to cut back on animals rather than add them until we get the move accomplished. And then I am hoping to have pasture to always have a steer going.

    One of my rabbit friends, not local, has runner ducks that she raves about. I am not sure what the difference is as I don't want to add ducks right now, but definitely a consideration for the future. I think she has even sold their eggs long distance. Very popular right now.

    All that to say, this is a discussion that needs to be had, because some of us just aren't going to be in good functional health on a plant-based diet.  And the way the political climate is blowing, meat (especially red meat) is going to become less available and more expensive, so if we want to have it available, we will need to grow our own.  But we don't all have a farm to raise food on -- and none of us wants to raise our meat in feedlot conditions.  



    YES YES YES
    This is exactly where I am coming from!!! And I am thinking that good functional health is critical in bad times. And for those like your daughter already struggling, need to have the best health possible. And with the best possible will, I spent many years on plant based diets, one year totally raw food vegan, and it simply does not do well for me. Especially my mental health. I learned that a couple decades ago, that animal protein was essential for my brain that has depression issues from both genetic and childhood issues.



    I took ox bile for about a month after the surgery.  I probably should still take it once in a while, but usually forget, LOL!  

    Goat meat is actually quite good, though it's lean, more like venison than beef, in my opinion.  We've never noticed any strong flavor from animals that had been sharing a pen with a buck, but you do have to be careful while butchering, not to let the fur side of the hide touch the meat (and wash your hands between handling the fur side of the hide and handling the meat).  I've even butchered a mature buck in rut and honestly, while I planned on just using the meat for dog food, it tasted fine, too!  (He was pushing me around whenever I went in the pasture.  Temperament in highly heritable; don't keep animals with bad temperament.)

    If I wasn't so sensitive to lamb/mutton, my first choice of red meat animal for our small property would be Katahdin or KatahdinXDorper sheep -- their lambs are fast growing, and the Katahdins, especially, are very parasite-resistant.  (Both are hair sheep that don't need to be sheared.)  I'm not at all sensitive to sheep milk, according to our test results, and some people do milk their Katahdins.  (Not sure about the Dorpers.)

    Close to twenty years ago, I had a goat that was half Oberhasli (dairy breed) and half Boer (meat breed).  She was the best milker I've ever had, peaking at almost two gallons of milk per day.  And her milk was rich and sweet.  I had Kinder goats at the same time, and her milk was as rich as theirs, and gave the same high cheese yields.  Standard dairy goat milk and cow milk will normally yield about one pound of cheese per gallon of milk; sheep milk, milk from Kinder goats (and possibly from pygmy goats and Nigerian Dwarfs), and the milk from Opal, my big doe, yielded about two pounds of cheese per gallon of milk.  So double the standard.  This is why their babies grow so fast!  

    I'm emailing now with a lady who has a purebred Boer doe kid for sale -- she milked the mother while the doe nursed this kid, and got almost a gallon of milk per day.  Expensive (very NICE quality Boer doe), but worth it.  If I get her, I'll breed her this year to my mini-Nubian buck.  
     
    This looks like a job for .... legal tender! It says so right in this tiny ad:
    Our perennial nursery has sprouted!
    https://permies.com/t/174246
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