Growing Apple Trees from Seed Naturally

Courtney Munson wrote:
First of all, everyone is talking about how growing from seed could lead to finding a wonderful new variety that does well in your local conditions.  Awesome, great, yes.  So, then.... what next?  It seems obvious you could take scionwood and then graft onto rootstock.  But then that's just propagating the same system we want to get away from, right?   Wouldn't it be better if you could just propagate the entire tree (fruiting top and roots)?  This seems obvious to me yet I'm not seeing anyone discussing the mechanics of how this is done.  How do you just propagate the tree itself?  I read some about air layering.  Is that what people are doing (or planning to do if they got a great new tree?)  If the tree was young enough would you just dig it up and create a stool bed with it?  Something less drastic I would hope?

Yes my goal is to include rooting from cuttings as a desired trait. I grow them on their own roots by planting the graft below the soil so the roots start growing out from the grafted variety, and they seem to be a lot stronger tree. I havent noticed any downsides to this, and they all have fruited within 4 years this way, so it seems that rootstock inducing early bearing is overstated from what i've seen.

Another question: from what I've read it seems like it's been "debunked" that apple trees just grow randomly from seed like Michael Pollan told me in his book all those years ago.  Is that true?  What I think I'm understanding from my recent reading is that if you get seeds from apples in your orchard where you have tasty varieties, and no crabapples, etc nearby, you're going to likely get crosses from those varieties, correct?  And/or you could hand pollinate somehow and know exactly what you were crossing?  

It's interesting to me how most old varieties that were amazing originated this way, and yes deliberate crosses can increase the chances even more, however I plan to mostly just let cross what will cross, and if all the apples being grown are good, then there is a very high chance the seedling will be as well! Hope your orchard continues to do well!

Steve

Courtney Munson wrote:
I'm very intrigued at the idea of growing seedling apples (and in the meantime learning to graft and propagating rootstock to expand my orchard).  Goodness knows I have a the space and I should do it!  I've read through this thread and been scouring the internet for information but I've got questions I haven't found answers to.

First of all, everyone is talking about how growing from seed could lead to finding a wonderful new variety that does well in your local conditions.  Awesome, great, yes.  So, then.... what next?  It seems obvious you could take scionwood and then graft onto rootstock.  But then that's just propagating the same system we want to get away from, right?   Wouldn't it be better if you could just propagate the entire tree (fruiting top and roots)?  This seems obvious to me yet I'm not seeing anyone discussing the mechanics of how this is done.  How do you just propagate the tree itself?  I read some about air layering.  Is that what people are doing (or planning to do if they got a great new tree?)  If the tree was young enough would you just dig it up and create a stool bed with it?  Something less drastic I would hope?"

So, if you are talking about growing a tree on native rootstock, Steve covers that below. Eliza Greenman of Hogtree covers it too. Consider that approximately 90% of people have never tasted an apple grown on its own rootstock. What would the mineral-soil-microbiome be like? The general idea is that you bury the graft, let the clone develop roots, and cut off the rootstock later. If successful, it has the advantage of no graft failures. Eliza suggests you could graft rootstock and start from there.
https://permies.com/t/40/108096/Growing-Apple-Trees-Seed-Naturally#1295301

As far as the distance between apple trees, you would want at least 300 feet for wind. Note that bees and hummingbirds often travel 2 miles, and hummingbirds can travel up to 20 miles, although this is rare. Under 2 miles you would still have some failure likely. You would not be able to use triploid apples, as they are sterile. My list of triploid apples is above, and they have many advantages. As for making your own variety using pollen, you can study Israeli tomato breeding and chestnut breeding. Israelis use an electric toothbrush in hoop houses. Chestnut breeders use a horsehair brush (from memory), and they cap off the flower for weeks.]

At the 8-minute mark,
https://youtu.be/Ax0SIbxgqDw?si=DDlCSd9jVPOtIrJU
400 to 1,200 pollination attempts on tomatoes fail for every successful one. At that rate, I think you are better off using the pit technique I talked about earlier. Using seeds from a cider press, dig a long trench, load it up with seeds, clip anything that isn't vigorous, and then wait. The average time is 7 to 8 years, with the shortest time being 5 years. I believe you can achieve it in 4 years with optimal plant health. Additionally, you will only be interested in the most vigorous trees.  They will be begging you to cull late and slow growers

G C Childers wrote:As far as the distance between apple trees, you would want at least 300 feet for wind. Note that bees and hummingbirds often travel 2 miles, and hummingbirds can travel up to 20 miles, although this is rare. Under 2 miles you would still have some failure likely. You would not be able to use triploid apples, as they are sterile. My list of triploid apples is above, and they have many advantages. As for making your own variety using pollen, you can study Israeli tomato breeding and chestnut breeding. Israelis use an electric toothbrush in hoop houses. Chestnut breeders use a horsehair brush (from memory), and they cap off the flower for weeks.]

I took an online course with Stefan Sobkowiak - he suggested that another apple should be within 300 m for pollination.  With that information, for planting an apple at the city house, I used Google Earth Pro to create a circle of 300 m radius and made a point of looking for apple trees when walking the dog in the area.  The attachment is the result.  I did note other apples further afield and these were only noted from the sidewalk so there may be some in back yards that I didn't see.  Observe and interact is a permaculture practice.  

This is the second year since this apple tree reached maturity. Last year the blossoms were sporadic and only on a few higher branches. This time it blooms profusely all the way to the lowest branch.  I will need to prune to control the size later this year.

Hi, Is April too late to try and germinate some fruit tree seeds I saved in the fridge from 2022, please? Thank you. Ex

Just wash the seeds clean and test germinationwith the paper towel method. If the seeds haven't been dried and viable, you will see root tips emerging in a few days. I will plant before the roots get too long. The tips are responding to gravity and fiddling with the seeds too much will crook the roots.

The Permaculture Duke's pov:

After a winter of collecting seeds from apples and mixing them into my hot house cold frame thing, I've transplanted them into small fabric pots and will plant and repot some later.  Out of 100s of seeds, only 80 made it out of the bark mulch. Probably would have gotten twice as many if I had started with a mulch free seedbed.
I planted some of last year's trees that over wintered in the hot house and brought inside for early spring. They went into this year's fruit hedges.

I've recently see videos from the "skillcult"  YouTube channel. Seems like getting the desired apple out of seeds is very hard because they can't breed within the same variety, so you must introduce some other kind of apple to get seeds, and that other apple could be one that mixes poorly. Like you might have a honey crisp as one parent, but then get a granny Smith as the other parent, which isn't an ideal mix.  Then, slight variations in starch texture, acid, and sugar content can make an apple taste "meh" and you can't really control that, even if you specifically breed two trees.

It seems like the best bet is to try to get seeds from specific breeding, and then plant a bunch of them and wait until they fruit a couple of years and then decide which to keep, if any. You can always over-graft if they're not very good.

But from watching lots of videos, it seems like Russet apple varieties are most resistant to pests.

Here's a photo of my Pink Lady seedlings.  It's pretty cool here yet, so I plan to get them outside as I start to harden off some of my vegetables.  There were 7, but I may have lost two of the smaller ones as I let the pot dry out a bit too much.  This is a survival of the fittest deal anyway.  It is nice to have something like this where I've got low expectations and very low investment.  If any of them survive our climate, I'll let them continue to grow - we have enough space to let them continue whether or not they produce fruit we like...there would be uses found.

Darren Robertson wrote:.

I do not have time for daddling in growing seedlings for maybe something decent. There are more choices of already proven apples then most folks have land to grow them on.

You seem very knowledgeable on growing apple trees.

I've heard that apple trees from seed will grow faster and bigger than from a graft or rooted Scion (maybe because of preserved original tap root?). Is this true? My long term goal is to have a couple of apple trees that are as big as I can get (after some decades). So I'm torn between trying to plant some apple trees from seed so they have a chance to maximize size and growth rate, and wanting to make sure I don't waste 5+ years growing a tree then disliking the apples on it.

Also, what apples grow well Wisconsin? I like Stayman apples but they come from further south. What russet apples grow well and taste good?

Brandon Hands wrote:

Also, what apples grow well Wisconsin? I like Stayman apples but they come from further south. What russet apples grow well and taste good?

You may want to look at the apple varieties developed at the University of Minnesota - here's a list.  I know a number of them are grown here in Manitoba so would certainly be winter-hardy enough for Wisconsin.

Good luck.