I'm terrible at scything!

This is pretty much documenting my journey to learning how to scythe - or until the lawnmower is fixed.

The lawnmower gave up the ghost this winter, and while we STILL waiting for parts to arrive, I need to do some major grass and weed control.  (yes, I can borrow the neighbour's mower but where's the fun in that?).

I'm taking the opportunity to learn a new skill - scything.  I have a couple of Lee Vally scythes I got second hand.  One is new the other most definitely not new.  



It started as a goal to hack down anything that was knee height or higher so that the lawnmower could do the job.  But now I'm finding I'm enjoying it and want to do better.  I want to be good at this.  I have lots of more opportunity to practice.  

Today I did an hour of scything with the newer scythe.  It's amazing how much longer it keeps an edge than the old blade, so I'm wondering if that is what peening is for?  I guess I need some sort of peening set up.

An hour is about what I can do before my body starts to complain.  Not bad.  A bit on the cardio side for my liking, but I think it will become easier as my muscles develop.

There's a lot of problem with my technique.  I don't want to blame the tool... yet!  But the snathe is pretty hard to alter.  

Either the end of my stroke the tip goes up - most common

Or if I keep the tip down, the start of my stroke is up.

Or if I can somehow get both start and stop of the stroke to stay at the right level, the middle bit didn't cut.  It just bent.

I also seem to be having a problem with keeping the blade low enough to the ground.  Most of my cuts are at ankle height.  

There is a lot of grass laying over on its side.  This is the mid-height stuff, just about ankle height.

But with all these problems, I still managed to cut a big area around the pond and filled up the tractor 8 times with cut grass for the chickens to play with.  Celebrate a little victory.  

Two things I want to look up before the next scything session
1. my back feels hunched up, it seemed to get into a very rounded posture and I feel I could scythe longer if I could keep it upright.
2. can I adjust the snathe on this somehow to make it match my height better?  

If the middle is failing to cut it is quite possibly trailing in the stroke. This can be counterintuitive but certain blade curvatures with certain presentations to the cut with certain pivot lengths can, in fact, cause some parts of the blade to move into the grass and cut it while other parts of the edge are being dragged backwards through the growth instead!

Even with a snath that is too short for you, your back should remain straight. Rather than bending from your back, hinge at the hips and/or widen your stance and you can use even very short snaths effectively without back discomfort. That being said, it's possible to adjust your tang angle to make the blade lay lower. This may be best accomplished using either a mini induction heater (many mechanics have them) or an oxy-acetylene torch to heat and bend the tang to the appropriate angle, with the heat being applied to the region that runs in line with the blade before making a 90° turn (the shank.) Allow to air-cool (do NOT quench!) and use a wet rag during heating to prevent the cutting portion of the blade from overheating.

r ranson wrote:

Either the end of my stroke the tip goes up - most common

Or if I keep the tip down, the start of my stroke is up.

Your using your arms.  The upward trends are because that is the limit of your reach on either side of the stroke.   Your arms should just be ropes and hooks that attach your hips and legs to the snath.

Get a mp3 player.  Load up some waltzes or polka music.  Something with that tempo.   I know it sounds silly but it works.  

Keep in mind ..... your not working, your dancing or doing kata's

r ranson wrote:

Or if I can somehow get both start and stop of the stroke to stay at the right level, the middle bit didn't cut.  It just bent.

I also seem to be having a problem with keeping the blade low enough to the ground.  Most of my cuts are at ankle height.  

Pick a spot where you can make a lot of strokes on virgin grass.  

After you have corrected the natural tendency to use your arms to "hack" at the stuff to be cut ......  Make a test stroke.  Did the blade cut uniformly throughout the stroke?  No?  Adjust the "toe" of the blade, the angle of the tip of the blade relative to the snath in or out with shims and wedges.

After each adjustment test another stroke on new grass.   Rinse and repeat until your satisfied.

r ranson wrote:

There is a lot of grass laying over on its side.  This is the mid-height stuff, just about ankle height.

This happens to me all the time.  Change the angle of the cutting edge relative to the ground to be cut.  The deeper the angle the more aggressive the cut.

Aggressive cutting angles will really wear on your blade as you are slicing more earth, rocks, roots, etc.  So this is a temporary adjustment to cut a particularly tough area only.

r ranson wrote:
Two things I want to look up before the next scything session

1. my back feels hunched up, it seemed to get into a very rounded posture and I feel I could scythe longer if I could keep it upright.
2. can I adjust the snathe on this somehow to make it match my height better?  

I had a lot of problems with this myself.  I followed all of the internet available length, dimension, spacing advice.  Finally solved it by lengthening my snath by 8 inches and decreasing the distance between grips by 4".

The snath dictates how you will feel after scything.  It's not a generic hatchet, pick, or shovel handle.  It has to fit you, and the terrain your working on.  Otherwise it will beat you to bruises.


Hope this helps.

I'm not even going to come close to the two masterful replies that you've already had, but something that I've found very useful for my own technique and in teaching others is to learn the arc of your swing.

When you swing, imagine the tip describing a portion (normally about 1/4 to 1/3) of a perfect circle. Next, imagine the trailing edge making that exact same arc. The impulse of beginners is to pull the cutting edge inward and create a hacking motion, but the arc you want is different and creates a fine slicing movement. The setup of the toe as Mark describes it is what provides the angle that actually does the cutting.

Phil Stevens wrote:two masterful replies

I don't know about "masterful".  I still inventory my fingers and toe's after cutting.

The two adjustments I talked about are better described here.

the jolly scythers new zealand, SCYTHE SETUP PART 2 of 3

01:20 angles of the blade

Phil Stevens wrote:the arc you want is different and creates a fine slicing movement.

Like this?  I notice how the belly of the blade does not leave the ground.  

Scything lawn-length grass




Good luck.

I'm glad you reminded me of that video clip...Christoff was my original tutor. And I certainly get your caution around keeping digits intact, as I had a mishap once that nearly modified the ball of my right foot.

     Howdy R. Ranson and everyone else,


                       I have a European scythe and like it quite a bit and as an aside, did you know that lazy, relaxed twisting exercises actually pumps spinal fluid back up into your brain and can put a smile on your face? It's interesting, at least I find it so.  I digress however and since no one mentioned it, your concerns are very probably caused by the tool first, as the length of your snath should be custom fit to your body. Mine is, and I can stand upright letting the scythe hang off my arms connected to my torso which I then twist to make the mowing stroke. Of course, there are other nuances, such as where you begin your cutting stroke, basically at 4 o'clock or perhaps more behind you if your shoulder is at three o'clock. Personally, I recommend The scythe book by Tresemer or any other equally informative book on Scything concomitant with the what has already been stated. That's all good stuff. I would like to add one last comment, most, if not perhaps all of the skills people are learning on this site in bygone days would have been taught to them by their grandparents and parents and they would have seen modeling of those well honed techniques and absorbed in a natural and organic way. Alas, this kind of cultural heritage and wisdom is pretty thin on the ground now and we are left to make as best an effort as possible discovering how to do it. This is a great good thing to do. Best of luck in your endeavors.


    Thomas

I'll trade you an ads.

well, the more I scythe, the worse I seem to get.  sigh.  (or should we make a pun and say 'scythe'?)

Observation:
1.  Damp grass is HUGELY easier to scythe than dry.  Even 10 am long grass on a warm day is too dry.  Wow.  
2. from the scything resources I'm using, the aluminium snathe is 4 to 5 inches too short for my body.
3. I'm going to need a peening set-up if I keep this up much more, as the blade isn't keeping the edge as long as it did at the start.
4. the scythe goes through young brambles better than the line trimmer.

Keeping the back of the blade on the ground is the hardest problem for me right now.  it wants to be about 3 inches above the ground.  Could it be the tool and not the user?

But I don't want/cannot invest much money in this as we've invested in repairing the lawnmower (without much success).  

Anyway, rain stop scything - which I hope means the grass will be wet after lunch and I can try some more.  

The noisy mower is FIXED!  I can't explain how happy I am with this news.  The grass pollen has me completely miserable.  

I had a look at Lee Valley for some peening tools.  "peening?  What's that?  Nah, you just use the stone to sharpen it."  sigh.  The same guy tried to talk me into a cheap knife with an entirely unsuitable handle.  I may be a girl, but I know my blades.

Which made me have a look at their display scythe.  It's a good 10 inches shorter now.  It would be much better for the kind of work I'm doing with grass and light brush (nettles, fresh brambles, close work between trees) but I was too grumpy at the guy to spend that much money.

The noisy mower is having trouble mowing grass taller than it.  So I'm wearing a cotton mask (thank goodness they are now normal!) and it's working better than an antihistamine at keeping the allergies at bay.  

I do like scything.  But I don't like it enough to invest in the equipment I need to replace the noisy mower.  But I can see it having a place on the farm.  

I'm also not great at the long strokes, but I think a lot of that is the type of grass I'm attempting to mow not being a good match for the blade.  If I was better, I could make the scythe do my bidding, but at my skill level, I would want to invest in a snathe that fits as well as peening equipment.  Probably a jig.  

From another rubbish scyther:
I inherited a scythe a couple years ago.  It seems to be rather a nice Austrian scythe with wooden snathe and a shortish blade.  Last year I learnt how to keep it sharp and had a go at cutting grass badly....
Recently we have started cutting the trackways again and I'm getting on much better.  I used a cut down milk carton to keep my wetstone in, but had to leave it on the ground, rathervtgan strapped to my waist, because it just slopped water out as soon as I started cutting.
I'm finding that the cut at the start of my sweep is generally good, but the end is rather high, and the grass cuts shorter further away from me so I get a rather ridged effect, and have to take a few swipes to get it more even.  
My land slopes in various directions, but that seemed not to matter too much.  We had already cut the some of the edges with the mower, so I was cutting either between mown areas, or from an uncut to a cut area.
I really like the fact the scythe is quiet.
I like the way the grass is mostly gathered in a line rather than randomly as our mower does.
It also seems quite quick cutting such a swathe in one
I only have to go over the path once, rather than each strip in both directions (I guess our mower needs a bit of adjustment, since it doesn't cut so cleanly
I don't like leaving the dog in the house because I'd rather 'my dog has no nose' stays a joke.
I can only do about an hour and a half before getting tired.  More exercise required, but the rain has started again now.

I'm jealous of all you scythers in those green, well-watered places. I'm in northern New Mexico, USA, where scything sometimes raises poofs of dust! It's high-altitude desert here. The climate is dry, and getting drier*.

Grass and weeds can be so dry that they don't resist the blade - they just flop over and let the blade pass by, then spring back up, laughing.

A scythe does do a good job of cutting cactus.


* The mayordomo (manager/boss) of one acequia (ancient, hand-dug agricultural water ditch) said that only eight years ago, he would be releasing snow-melt water up until early June, and in July would have monsoon water in the river to put into the ditch. Maybe in August they would have to release water from the dam. Now the snow-melt doesn't last through April; they've already released dam water. And it's questionable whether there will be a monsoon season.

I too have a Fox scythe (made in Austria) from Lee Valley, but it has a curved snath, unlike the one in the first image.  I haven't done much more than putter with it, but do hope to use it more and tractors less.

A resource I have (which works particularly well if you're a reader) is The Scything Handbook by Ian Miller - unfortunately I see it is only available as an ebook right now...I wonder if that makes my paper copy a collector's edition.

On page 19 it describes fitting a scythe to your body.  Snath length should be to your chin, lower (right) grip at hip level and distance between grips is a cubit plus 2" (5 cm).  I had to share that because it uses cubits.

Yes, in hindsight, this aluminum scythe is a disappointment as grips are not adjustable.  It is nice and light though.  I presume as time marches on, I expect to invest in more stuff in an attempt to figure things out like a snath that is right for me, different blades, and peening setup.

Derek,

I actually want to purchase a metal snath. When mowing between the trees last week I already broke my wooden snath 3 times. They just can not stand to mowing dense vegetation, despite all the idyllic images showing handsome people doing their scything.

Cristobal Cristo wrote:Derek,

I actually want to purchase a metal snath. When mowing between the trees last week I already broke my wooden snath 3 times. They just can not stand to mowing dense vegetation, despite all the idyllic images showing handsome people doing their scything.

Interesting...also evidence of how much of a newbie I am.  Of course, we are likely in a different context looking to different uses.  I guess that leads to a question of whether anyone is making adjustable or custom aluminum snaths.  I guess they wouldn't necessarily need to be custom, but for the variety of humans, I suspect the market isn't considered big enough to have multiple sizes in enough variation to fit everyone who wants to use one.  Fux Snaths has quite a variety, so perhaps one is a good fit for you...and you're able to get it to where you are.

Of all the scythe videos I have enthusiastically watched over the years, this is the first one I have seen that mentions a counter weight?!? Can someone with  experience enlighten me further, please? I LOVE using my scythe! It brings me peace...

I got the scythe out this week.  The lawnmower has a flat tyre and the two incidents are unconnected.

In a moment, I'm going to re-read this thread to see what I learned last time, but I wanted to share my "first" impressions coming back to this after a few years.

- my snath must be too short because I either have to have the blade within 2 inches of my toes or stoop two inches to get the right angle.  
- our lawn is way too uneven and I keep catching the ground
- I'm either going up at the start of the swing, or up at the end.  I can only get the swing to follow the ground if I stoop so the back of the blade can rest on the ground.  When I get that right, it makes a very nice cut.
- 60 seconds is the longest I can go between sharpening the blade.
- it's more cardio than I remember - possibly because I was working on a slope.  More likely because I had to stoop.
- It didn't take long to get enough fodder for a meal for the sheep.
- our lawn is getting mega-polyculture.  Love it!  
- having the handle not twist in my grip made it much easier on my wrist.  So glad I fixed that.

Unconnected...sure, sure

I ran out of time to get the first mowing done with any use of the scythe.  With a vacation in late April / early May I was behind and the quack grass in particular was approaching knee height.  A system started in overnight with a rainfall warning (predicting up to 60 mm of rain by late tomorrow) so I wanted to get it handled yesterday...which meant the tractors.  At least the plants will grow back and I'll have more opportunity.  When I next get out to the property, there's a lot of material laid down that I can use for mulch and in the compost bin.

I hadn't seen One Scythe Revolution mentioned yet, so I thought I should at least share it. I know there's other resources for scything. I haven't looked into any of them, myself.

I have done a little bit of scything, with some success. I'm not great at it and it's hard work. I did find setting up the snath properly has helped a lot. Weight and balance seems to be important.

I think some blades are meant to be peened, others sharpened with stones. I haven't trying peening yet.

We have something closer to a weed jungle than a flat area that's easy to mow. I ended up getting a blade meant more for weeds, and my lack of patience/experience.

Interesting bit about the grass being best while damp. I'll have to try that.

After a few days of scything gently, I woke up one morning feeling like my ribs and/or back was broken or shattered or something.  So I took a few days off and am carefully getting back into scything.

It turns out it wasn't activity that did my back in.  Thankfully.  But it made me more aware of how I'm using the scythe.  The stooping is a big problem.  And when I'm getting tired I will twist my back instead of just using my weight and hips to move the scythe.  Keeping the blade closer to my toes means I don't have to stoop (the shoes have steel toes) but it does dig in to the grass more as the cutting angle is steeper.

The scything activity is helping relax my back if I'm careful not to do too much at once.  Getting the grass to the sheep makes it way worse, so I'm getting help with this.  

There are snathes at the local farm shops so I need to look up how to get the right fit.  They are aluminum twisted snathes with handles that adjust up and down.  They feel shorter than my current one, but adjustable!  

My current sythe is however, awesome at working on the steep banks.  I'm using almost all arm muscles and it's worlds faster than the usual gas powered whippersnipper.  Maybe 20 times faster. Or it would be if not for all the branches left behind in the now long grass (wasn't during the winter) by the fruit pruners.  They were supposed to put it in the hugel trench... and we weren't well enough to check up on them this winter.  Scythe can take down a living tree up to an inch thick without noticing but it refuses to cut dead wood.


In other news, we got one of four wheels off the lawnmower.  "just pop them off" he said.  Yah right.  Going to get all four replaced but we got to get the wheels off first.

There is also talk of getting a brush blade - if we can find one.  Or maybe it's something I dreamt.  Got to figure that out as the blackberries need beating back and cutting them one by one isn't working.  

I'm also feeling pretty smug right now.  The "small" section I did today took about 20-30 minutes and is about the same size as the patch of lawn our neighbor have been working on with various gas powered toys for the last 3 hours and are still working on.  The neighbors don't like mufflers, run 2 to 3 gas powered tools at the same time, and from the amount of swearing, find lawn care unpleasant.  I would too if I had to do the same patch three times a week like they do.  

I really enjoyed scything this morning.  The sound of the blade through the grass.  The "blood" of the grass dripping off the tip of the blade as I lift it for sharpening.  The only problem, it was a bit late in the day and the dew was off the grass so it took a bit more effort.  But I was able to do not just flat but part of a steep bank and working in and around the trees was way easier than I expected.  

Also, I should wear a sun hat.  Sun is hot.  

R. Ranson...here is a resource for your scythe blade search. Benjamin is very helpful and fast to respond to all email inquires
https://byxco.com/collections/scythe-blades-grass-hooks

I have a wooden snath from Scythe Supply in Maine. It is ash and "bent" and I cannot imagine breaking it without hitting a tree hard enough to also break arm bones. I live in Puerto Rico and I cut cane-grass that grows over head height - it really enforces good technique because if you try to hack, the blade just stops. There is also a lot of vine growth in the cane and that accumulates on the snath instead of being cut if you take too big of a "bite", though I sometimes do it anyway. I carry a machete in a sheath on my hip which I use fairly often if vines are accumulating on the snath. I peen the blade after about one acre, but I hone with a wet stone about every 100 yards.

I have two blades, but the longer and more slender grass blade sees little use; I am always working with a "ditch" blade, and I have had to make some repairs so it has a couple of little waves in the blade - not up-and-down waves, but just faintly reminiscent of serrations perhaps. I truly believe it is faster and less work than a gasoline-powered trimmer.

questions from today

How do I figure out what size snath I need?

What's the name of the tool that tightens the blade.

when I ordered my snath from Scythe Supply in Perry, Maine, I had to provide my forearm length (elbow to fingertip), the length from ground to the joint of my hip, and overall height - so I guess they have some fancy formula. They don't sell snaths by size, just by the formula. I am 6' 0" height and my snath length is 61 inches, with a handle at 36 inches. That lower handle is on an angled extension, but I have also seen snaths with both handles right on the shaft. both handles are pointed away from the point of the blade.

The blade is secured with a clamp that has two set screws which impinge directly on the . . . tang? of the scythe blade. I have a square cross-section "key" that fits into the set screw. It is more common, in my limited experience, for set screws to be hex-head (female). But I appreciate the square key; it seems more sturdy.

There are a few places in town that sell snaths but the people at the farm shops don't know how to adjust it or what size fits what human.  They all seem rather short to me.

I would like to buy a new "key" for the blade, but finding out what to call it (so the local shops can order it in) has been difficult.  Mine has the square hole, but it's much bigger than any screwdriver.  

But I am going to try a new place that does a lot more scythe work and the guy might be able to either adjust my current set up or better yet, get me a new snath for this blade, and a new bramble-blade for my old snath as it's really light and not bad for working on a slope.

100% in favour of the square key.  I'm a bit rough on hex keys.  

square stock is sold for shaft keys; maybe you could get some from a machine shop. Or if you have a grinder of some sort you could make your own key from an old screwdriver or chunk of scrap metal. A variety of worn out car parts might be good starting points - local mechanics throw away parts all day.

I feel like I have enough hours with this lee valley rig to say with confidence that this snathe was designed with the evil plan to sell more lawnmowers.

It was fine for the first few hours, but now...

The blade works loose with every hit of a rock, stiff grass, branch, etc.

The handles work loose with use and smooths the aluminium so that no matter how tight they are, they still slip on the snathe.  

We cannot adjust the snathe to different body shapes outside whatever normal the designer decided was normal human shape.

The biggest advantage is it's well balanced for steep banks.

The blade is half decent and I think this is why the problems of the snathe don't show up right away.  But as it wears and needs a good pening, it puts more pressure on the snathe which cannot handle it, thus transfers the strain to the user.


This week, I invested in a peening jig.  I am considering getting a sythe made locally so I can adjust the lee valley one for brambles and light brush.


Haying season is late due to late season rains.  Now the hay is too dense for a lot of the tractors to ted, so I'm seeing people tedding by hand in the fields.  With rain in the forecast for tomorrow,  I can see another week of scything sheep fodder in my future. It does make it worth while to have patches of long grass and a scythe.

Also, cannot get the wheels off that stupid mower and even then,  the wait list for mower repairs is nearly four months.  Wait list for a landscaper to mow the lawn is "laughter, you've got to be kidding.   I could fit you in in maybe two years from now."

Scything for the win.

r ranson wrote:I feel like I have enough hours with this lee valley rig to say with confidence that this snathe was designed with the evil plan to sell more lawnmowers.

<snip>

The handles work loose with use and smooths the aluminium so that no matter how tight they are, they still slip on the snathe.  

<snip>

Scything for the win.

You had me laughing with that first line.

I wonder if a cloth tape (hockey tape) on the aluminum under the wooden handles would work.  I haven't used mine enough to notice your issue, but the handles do wiggle a bit.

Sometimes dealing with machining is the answer for tight / impossible separation.  If it's effectively a bolt holding the wheels on, the head of the bolt could be drilled off, but then ou need to get the remainder of the bolt out (an EZ-Out is a potential solution)...sometimes drilling a hole through the bolt will give some additional give so that threads separate.  If the attachment is what I envision (deck of the mower is threaded and a bolt threads in to hold the wheel on), then it sees a lot of moisture with use, which leads to corrosion, which leads to stuck threads.  It's a bugger.  I play with old cars so feel your pain.

There certainly is value to mowing by hand.  At the city property I use a reel mower...there's isn't much grass (and it's shrinking), so it doesn't make sense to maintain a gas mower for that little bit...electric requires a long cord which I don't have on hand presently.  I'd purchased an early battery operated unit (and had a matching snowblower), but the batteries didn't last.  Anyway, with a scythe there's almost a mesmerizing meditative quality to the repetitive movement and sound.

I learned last year that the grasses on our acreage have a terminal height, so if I can't get to the mowing, it isn't all that bad, just looks a bit wilder (and results in more shocks from spooking birds out of the long grass).

The lawnmower wheels have like a friction fit with a key...soft bit of metal so the wheels turn when the axel turns, but the key will break first if something goes wrong so the axel doesn't break.   But, the wheels are slightly twisted around so the two key slots no longer align and the wheel is jammed on the axel. It's going to take strength to get them into alignment and blablabla lawnmowers are possibly the least repairable farm equipment ever.  I hate it.

For the scythe handle,  I'm going to see if we have a bit that will drill through aluminum and put a bolt through both handle and snathe.  That would keep it in place.   Since scything is a slicing motion, it shouldn't need the strength of something that chops.

Re: Handles slipping. Don't ever use a scythe with a slipping handle. As soon as it moves at all, stop and fix it before taking even one more stroke. If you keep on, you'll very soon ruin your snath.

Setup: If your scythe is correctly set up, my Great-Uncle Harry always told me that when you are holding it comfortably, ready to take a cut, you should just be able to touch the tip of the blade with the tip of your left boot. He could mow a lawn with his scythe better than the lawn mower could and I wish I'd learned more from him while I had the chance. Mind you, that is over 60 years ago now and he's long been on the other side of the turf! I do love my scythes, one with a long grass blade, the other with a shorter brush blade, which is the best one to use for the rough grass and shrubby stuff I generally mow.here.

I use a short piece of light railway track clamped in a heavy vise and a 1lb ball pein hammer for peening, generally using the flatter head, which still has a slight radius

Jim Webb wrote:Re: Handles slipping. Don't ever use a scythe with a slipping handle. As soon as it moves at all, stop and fix it before taking even one more stroke. If you keep on, you'll very soon ruin your snath.

Good advice.   Although the relationship I have with my current snath, I'm not sure I would mind if it imploded.  The slipping handles are dangerous mostly because I get frustrated and chop in anger instead of scything/slicing.   Chopping uses arms and back, neither of which are strong.   If I can keep the motion in my hips and legs, I'm back up to over an hour in one session for two+ hours a day. I'm running out of grass.

I just need to talk myself into getting one that fits.  It's half my normal monthly income for a new rig, so I'm going to see if I can sell a sheep to pay for it.  I think having a new set up will make  a big difference.

I just have to say this because... today happened.

Fixing a scythe is way easier than fixing a lawn mower.  Stupid belt won't go where it's supposed to, make me burn myself on the muffler, mumblemumblemumble...

I got a new scythe.

And found out that it's not peened out of the factory.  

Sigh, something else to do.