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scythes

Blade repair...where to begin?

Judith Browning

Posts: 9108

Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

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posted 3 years ago

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All righty now

I was scything early and decided to mow the path short as we have been doing with the kobalt mower...and then forgot which direction I had left the blade in the long grass when I leaned the snath against the hoop house....and there it is...ran over the tip with the power mower. Mower blade made it out OK, not so my scythe blade.

So.....we have an anvil and big hammers?
Peening again looks like the easy part.

Where to begin?

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

posted 3 years ago

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It won't be easy to iron out damage that severe, but you'll probably get the best results using a wooden or plastic mallet against a wood block because metal-on-metal-on-metal will spread the steel when you're just trying to knock it back into place. Look into freehand sheet metal forming techniques used by auto body and aviation workers and you'll see some possible techniques to use. Sometimes simply using wood as your backing surface and using a steel hammer will be appropriate, other times a soft-faced hammer is needed.

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

Judith Browning

Posts: 9108

Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

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posted 3 years ago

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Thank you for giving me a place to begin.

Fortunately I have another blade so have put this one back for the moment and won't rush the repair..

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

Posts: 9108

Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

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posted 3 years ago

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I decided to try....Steve found his wooden mallets and using the smaller one, hitting with the end grain against an oak board I'm making slow progress. Need to find a more solid place to set up than the bench and maybe a more curved surface to hit against?

Pounded until my hand ached so will take some time to find out if it's still usable.....

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

John F Dean

master steward

Posts: 7119

Location: southern Illinois, USA

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posted 3 years ago

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I am impressed with your results so far. You are doing much better than I thought possible.

….give me coffee to do the things I can and bourbon to accept the things I can’t.

Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

posted 3 years ago

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Looking much better already! Glad the techniques are producing the expected result!

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

Ben House

Posts: 198

Location: East Tennessee

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posted 3 years ago

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You can use the anvil and hammer, just only hit where the blade is in a ripple. That way you are not squeezing the metal. Also if it is becoming work hardened you may need to anneal the metal, otherwise it may crack.

--------------------
Be Content. And work for more time, not money. Money is inconsequential.

Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

posted 3 years ago

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You have to deflect it past the yield point. I would specifically advise against using a steel anvil with a steel hammer unless you're working over the hardy or pritchel holes to give the blade room to move into. You can end up permanently warping the blade if you over-tension a zone.

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

J. Graham

gardener

Posts: 3132

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posted 3 years ago

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I'd be interested to see if the currugated edge cuts better or worse as it is.

“It’s said war—war never changes. Men do, through the roads they walk. And this road—has reached its end.”

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Judith Browning

Posts: 9108

Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

2507

posted 3 years ago

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]Jordan Holland wrote:I'd be interested to see if the currugated edge cuts better or worse as it is.

I wondered at that, although then peening and even sharpening would be next to impossible I think?
If I thought it might improve the cut for bermuda grass I might try but as it is I'll just keep pounding away

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

posted 3 years ago

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The undulations are unlikely to improve cutting performance. However, setting a toothy scratch pattern with a coarse stone followed by a single light pass with a fine stone to crisp up the apex without erasing that coarse scratch pattern will generally give the best total slicing aggression.

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

John Duffy

pollinator

Posts: 227

posted 3 years ago

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Benjamin, you are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for sharing...Prior to reading this, I would have tried to pound the bugger into submission. ("patience, Grasshopper")...You'd think that after 63 years I should have mastered patience...Not...I'm a work in progress...Thanks again.

Judith Browning

Posts: 9108

Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

2507

posted 3 years ago

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Getting there....

And on the plus side this has got me peening and sharpening my other blade...what was called a 'garden' blade...a shorter heavier one for getting up close...edging and fruit trees....not necessary as the other did that as well but it's what I have at the moment.

The marks showing in the third photo are patterning on the blade not something from mine or Steve's pounding.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

John Duffy

pollinator

Posts: 227

posted 3 years ago

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Looks like you're on the right track. It's getting there. Nice work!

Thomas Michael

Posts: 100

Location: Blackhills SD. 4600' zone 5A.

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posted 3 years ago

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That is much better then I expected. You must have more patience then you give yourself credit for.
I think at this point you may need to change to a sand bag for a backer. The ripples need to be driven past straight alignment, so they spring back into alignment.
And remember good enough to work is not a perfectly straight blade. Tom.

"If you always do, what you always did, you'll always get, what you always got!" Mike S.
"It's easy to chop out excess trees. It's really hard to get a mature tree today." Joseph Lofthouse

Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

posted 3 years ago

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At this stage a ball pein hammer on the end grain of a stump would probably work. The end grain should crush so the metal won't squish.

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

Judith Browning

Posts: 9108

Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

2507

posted 3 years ago

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Not flat but closer....I can still feel ripples and they show differently in the photos....that one near the tip I thought was flatter than that...done for today.

Thanks Benjamin!
I ended up using the flat side of the hammer also...the log is sassafras.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

Posts: 9108

Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

2507

posted 3 years ago

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Thomas Michael wrote:That is much better then I expected. You must have more patience then you give yourself credit for.
I think at this point you may need to change to a sand bag for a backer. The ripples need to be driven past straight alignment, so they spring back into alignment.
And remember good enough to work is not a perfectly straight blade. Tom.

Thank you Tom...
I was interested in the sand bag? We think it's something our jeweler friends use.
They must come at different densities? It sounds useful to have around.

Hopefully I never do this again...my mistakes are mostly one of a kind

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

John Duffy

pollinator

Posts: 227

posted 3 years ago

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I'm impressed! It's looking like a scythe blade again...Nice work.

Judith Browning

Posts: 9108

Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

2507

posted 3 years ago

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I did a bit more past the last photos and called it good enough...peened and sharpened now and back in action.

I'm working on that 'toothy' edge now Benjamin as wirey bermuda grass is most of what needs cutting.

Thanks for all of the advice and encouragement.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Jane Mulberry

pollinator

Posts: 1046

Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria

397

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posted 3 years ago

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Amazing fix, Judith!

I'm only 64! That's not to old to learn to be a permie, right?

Vic Dupont

Posts: 29

posted 1 year ago

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Hi there,

Following up on that thread because I am in a similar situation yet maybe different.

I warped my blade while peening it.

Several reasons could be the cause :
- it was my first time peening a scythe
- that scythe had never been peened, while used for decades, thus a lot of peening was required
- it had many dents, though not huge, and I tried to fix one until it disappeared

After doing some reading, it seems the most likely cause is that I pounded on the center of the blade, not only on the edge. I had seen that the edge was curling back on itself too much and wanted to straighten it. I thus pounded with the flat of the hammer, a bit everywhere, including in the middle of the blade. I think the warping appeared right after that.

Do you guys think I might be able to straighten it the same way that Judith did?

Or is it that the cause of the warping might be that the metal was spread out too much, and thus won't be able to flatten?

Thanks a lot in advance for the help.

John Duffy

pollinator

Posts: 227

posted 1 year ago

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The ripples need to be driven past straight alignment, so they spring back into alignment. Thank you, Thomas Michael. This observation taught me something I did not know...Always like to learn new & useful stuff

Vic Dupont

Posts: 29

posted 1 year ago

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Here are some pictures:

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Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

posted 1 year ago

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Oh goodness--that blade has been WAY over-peened, both too thin and too far back. Unfortunately the damage is now done, and the only fix is to file or grind back in the steel to remove the overly-thinned material and start fresh. Please have a look at some videos on correct peening technique before proceeding again so that a repeat does not occur. A well-peened edge for grass should only lightly deform when lateral pressure is applied to it with your thumbnail. The steel along this edge would readily crumple in use.

In general it is a best management practice to under-peen rather than over-peen, though of course the goal is to do it just the right amount. But if erring, do so on the side of caution.

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

Vic Dupont

Posts: 29

posted 1 year ago

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Thanks a lot for the very helpful reply!

So if I understand correctly, the first step would be to file or grind back to remove part of the material. At that point, do you think the warping will disappear? If it doesn't, do you reckon I should then follow the same process as Judith to straighten it before peening again?

Thanks also for your additional guidance on how to peen. I had watched several videos on the topic, but none had mentioned a risk of over-peening. I had no idea one should err on the side of not peening too much. I was aiming for the same goal, having the edge move at least a bit when applying pressure with my nail. I guess I went too far back, and also did too much because I tried to make the dents disappear at once.

Again, thank you VERY MUCH for your help!

Benjamin Bouchard wrote:Oh goodness--that blade has been WAY over-peened, both too thin and too far back. Unfortunately the damage is now done, and the only fix is to file or grind back in the steel to remove the overly-thinned material and start fresh. Please have a look at some videos on correct peening technique before proceeding again so that a repeat does not occur. A well-peened edge for grass should only lightly deform when lateral pressure is applied to it with your thumbnail. The steel along this edge would readily crumple in use.

In general it is a best management practice to under-peen rather than over-peen, though of course the goal is to do it just the right amount. But if erring, do so on the side of caution.

Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

posted 1 year ago

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Warping most commonly occurs when the metal has been spread too much and now has to buckle in one direction or the other due to the excess material trying to occupy too small of a space. Much of that will go away once the over-peened metal is removed. DON'T mess around with the main portion of the blade unless absolutely necessary, and if you do, make sure to use a wooden anvil surface so you don't spread the metal and make it worse.

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

Vic Dupont

Posts: 29

posted 1 year ago

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Thanks a lot for the help!

I did some filing. It's difficult to tell, but I feel like I have removed everything that I've peened.

The warping didn't disappear. Again it's hard to tell, but I don't know whether it has even shrank.

Here are some pictures of how it stands now.

I would love to know whether you think I should file some more, or now try to straighten with a mallet and wooden anvil?

Thanks again very much for the help!

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Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

posted 1 year ago

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Vic Dupont wrote:Thanks a lot for the help!

I did some filing. It's difficult to tell, but I feel like I have removed everything that I've peened.

The warping didn't disappear. Again it's hard to tell, but I don't know whether it has even shrank.

Here are some pictures of how it stands now.

I would love to know whether you think I should file some more, or now try to straighten with a mallet and wooden anvil?

Thanks again very much for the help!

At this stage it would probably make sense to attempt GENTLY nudging it with the wooden mallet/anvil surface. Preferably you'll be able to use a somewhat convex surface like the side of a log for doing the work. Use only as much force as is necessary to get it to move and visualize what the blow will do to the metal before every strike, checking often to ensure you're not over-doing it. Straightening that severe of a warp is going to be tricky and it's likely the results won't be perfect, but you can at least try to nudge it back so it's good enough.

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

Vic Dupont

Posts: 29

posted 1 year ago

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Ok thanks a lot! I'll try that and report back.

Thanks again very much!

Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

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You may also want to round your blade's heel. Sharp points like it has now have the tendency to snag grass.

As you go about this process take note of if the deformed portion exhibits "popping" like a safety seal on a metal bottle cap. That would be a sign that you still have over-expanded metal present that's squeezing itself inward to create the buckle, rather than it being simple plastic deformation. If that's the case you may need to remove more material in the area, but hopefully all that's left currently is able to be nudged plastically back in place rather than being elastic in nature.

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

Vic Dupont

Posts: 29

posted 1 year ago

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Thank you VERY MUCH again.

There definitely is popping. I should have mentioned it maybe. When I try to press two warped parts, pointing in opposite directions, back into their normal position, I can move them, and if I let go they'll spring back into warping with that popping sound.

If I understand correctly what you're saying, that means I should keep filing?

Also, "heel" means the bottom right corner, near the scythe handle?

Thank you again VERY MUCH

Benjamin Bouchard

Posts: 337

posted 1 year ago

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Yes, if you have popping like that it's a sign the metal's been spread in such a way that it's causing compression zones that force the metal to buckle like that. You may need to file into the middle of the zone to create space for the metal to actually go instead of pushing into itself and popping up like that, and then over time you can draw the notched zone back out more. Ugly, but it works.

And yes, the heel of the blade is the portion closest to its base.

"To live at all is miracle enough" ~Mervyn Peake
Baryonyx Knife Co. --Owner

John Duffy

pollinator

Posts: 227

posted 1 year ago

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Thank you, Benjamin for sharing your vast knowledge about metal malleability. I always learn something new & valuable when you post.

Judith Browning

Posts: 9108

Location: Ozarks zone 7 alluvial, clay/loam with few rocks 50" yearly rain

2507

posted 1 year ago

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Hi Vic,
I'm wondering how the repair is going?

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Vic Dupont

Posts: 29

posted 1 year ago

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Sorry for the slow reply.

I left the house, I haven't move forward yet. I have left the scythe and the file on my workbench though, I'll resume when I return, at Christmas

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