Passive Solar - pavers on floor as heat batteries?

Passive Solar...during winter time in Australia.

Has anyone used pavers over their floor boards inside for solar batteries in Winter?

Today I bought an infra red detection tool which measures what temperature any surface is  -- within reach!
I have been toying with the idea of how to use passive solar heating via my front single glazed triple window e.g. it would take three doors if it were to replace the glazing.

Its on stumps > foot /300mm above the ground but is there a way I can lay (responsibly) pavers on top of chip board or sheet flooring insitu to make it dense heat batteries?  - for winter sun mostly. The sun streams through the entire room moving from east to west so all the room gets solar energy as some time in the day.  That is 4meters (x3 for feet) and depth into the room is about 3meters.  Thats a fair expanse.

My infra red readings today at 2pm
Outside this window - it was 24C (15C is 50F) on a concrete corner 'feature', which is part in the ground and mostly outside the ground at a foot tall and is 2 inches think and maybe ft and half length and height.
The bricks in a pile nearby were not that temperature, nor the bricks of the house they came in at 16-17C.

Most other objects in the garden on this mild dry winter's day, were 14-16C, except some timber planks standing independently and they were 18C, and the black lids of black plastic trash cans/containers,  were 19C.  
Areas of mere bare surface soil although there is not much, was 10-11C.
Other ground surface with roots from natives runner tall grass, and with remnants of bark from some years ago, was 13C.

Indoors, of the non-insulated home (but will be one day now that I know THAT THAT is the problem why heat escapes):
were the same as the general temperatures outside.
The front sunny room was 15-16C.
17C + on the polyvinyl vertical blind fabric of that window,
And 17C on my day bed surface, by the window which is maybe made of poly cotton fabric and foam mattress underneath.

Then 22C for the solid timber plank that supports to upper and the lower aluminium window frames, this was the most warm of all.  Unfortunately I only did this temperature check from the inside, I actually did not take that temp on the outside as I am beginning to set up a temporary greenhouse there and that plank was in some ways covered from direct sun. So I did not bother taking that temperature except thought to from the inside though.


This wee experiment affirmed that the concrete matter is a key absorbent of the solar energy, as we already know.
And If I could introduce that as a passive heat battery then that surely is better than not.

Has anyone done this over there existing stumped floors?
Any success stories or too hard because of the weight of the pavers and needing to put extra stumps in to support them all or what was your experience or thoughts about this notion?

Thanks

In principal this could work well.  I'm sure I've seen thermal mass floors to store solar energy at the Hockerton community in Northamptonshire, England.  If the floor isn't designed for the weight you want to add you will need to get that checked first.  
I suspect you may see more effect from insulation and draught proofing, although a warm floor underfoot is always pleasant, it won't make the air temperature much different.

I've added your post to the stonework and passive solar forums, which might be more appropriate.

Joyce, what part of "the land downunder" are you in?

It can be done, I have seen it and done it.
They need to be quarry tiles that are about 40mm thick and laid on cement sheeting over the floorboards.
Quarry tiles are not popular now so they are hard to find.
I would do other things first in this order;
- insulate floor
- have at least 300mm of ceiling insulation
- install sarking under roof tiles or roofing iron, attached to battens or roof joists.
- take up smoking at look for every draught in the house and block them.
- fit door and window seals
- fit pelmets to windows
- install thermal mass, tiles, where practical
- fit double glazed windows, there are plenty of second hand ones now.
- Or retrofit double glazing using Alan from DIY Double Glazing in Eltham, Victoria.

Will it do something?  Yes.  Will it make a difference?  Probably not.  Effective amounts of thermal mass are measured in tons.  Lots of them! For now, funds are better spent on sealing, and insulation (including nightime window insulation).

I have concrete floors which are very cold in the winter.

Maybe concrete heats up in the sun though I have not seen any difference in my floor whether it is the sunny side of the house or the shady side.  It does make sense that the sunny side would be warmer so maybe the shady side cools the sunny side?

I feel the pavers might work if you installed radiant floor heating under the pavers.

Another disadvantage to walking on concrete all day is that it is hard on the feet.

Joyce Harris wrote:Passive Solar...during winter time in Australia.

Has anyone used pavers over their floor boards inside for solar batteries in Winter?

Today I bought an infra red detection tool which measures what temperature any surface is  -- within reach!
I have been toying with the idea of how to use passive solar heating via my front single glazed triple window e.g. it would take three doors if it were to replace the glazing.

Its on stumps > foot /300mm above the ground but is there a way I can lay (responsibly) pavers on top of chip board or sheet flooring insitu to make it dense heat batteries?  - for winter sun mostly. The sun streams through the entire room moving from east to west so all the room gets solar energy as some time in the day.  That is 4meters (x3 for feet) and depth into the room is about 3meters.  Thats a fair expanse.

My infra red readings today at 2pm
Outside this window - it was 24C (15C is 50F) on a concrete corner 'feature', which is part in the ground and mostly outside the ground at a foot tall and is 2 inches think and maybe ft and half length and height.
The bricks in a pile nearby were not that temperature, nor the bricks of the house they came in at 16-17C.

Most other objects in the garden on this mild dry winter's day, were 14-16C, except some timber planks standing independently and they were 18C, and the black lids of black plastic trash cans/containers,  were 19C.  
Areas of mere bare surface soil although there is not much, was 10-11C.
Other ground surface with roots from natives runner tall grass, and with remnants of bark from some years ago, was 13C.

Indoors, of the non-insulated home (but will be one day now that I know THAT THAT is the problem why heat escapes):
were the same as the general temperatures outside.
The front sunny room was 15-16C.
17C + on the polyvinyl vertical blind fabric of that window,
And 17C on my day bed surface, by the window which is maybe made of poly cotton fabric and foam mattress underneath.

Then 22C for the solid timber plank that supports to upper and the lower aluminium window frames, this was the most warm of all.  Unfortunately I only did this temperature check from the inside, I actually did not take that temp on the outside as I am beginning to set up a temporary greenhouse there and that plank was in some ways covered from direct sun. So I did not bother taking that temperature except thought to from the inside though.


This wee experiment affirmed that the concrete matter is a key absorbent of the solar energy, as we already know.
And If I could introduce that as a passive heat battery then that surely is better than not.

Has anyone done this over there existing stumped floors?
Any success stories or too hard because of the weight of the pavers and needing to put extra stumps in to support them all or what was your experience or thoughts about this notion?

Thanks

Thermal mass works great but you have to use it in conjunction with many of the above listed upgrades to get meaningful results. I have found over the years that many people think of energy solely in terms of generation. I would spend my money on good thermal curtains, winter storm windows, or window upgrades in that cost order. Keep the heat in or out depending on the season is always the best bet. In our last house we had cement board covered with a dark ceramic tile as well as thicker drywall on the walls for mass but it was backed up by a well insulated shell...

Thermal mass is a double edged sword.      

It will keep you warm longer once warmed....

It will also take longer to warm up once cold.


I believe the trick is to get the right amount of thermal mass for the task you want to accomplish.


Consider a rocket oven, verses a cob oven.         Rocket oven you get the job done under 1 hour  from start to finish.        A cob oven,  takes longer to heat up, but of you have tons of food to cook you can cook for a far longer time doing multiple batches.

Thanks for your time and responses one and all.


Hi there John, great to meet another Aussie in this space.
The southern edge of Melbourne is where I hail from - diagonally opposite side from your city of Bendigo.
G'day mate.

Thanks for the great feedback and suggestions, with a contact for  double glazing.
All that is running a muck in my head already so that is good confirmation.

Tell me more about the stoneware flooring you referred to please.
Is it tough? And durable?

I have a flat roof and no subfloor space to crawl in. Difficult child when it comes to insulation but there is ZERO. So I need to get on to that now that I know this is the key issue in the home.

I imagine the flooring would need to be removed to add more supports if I was installing the stoneware that you referred to for the floor in my 'sun room'. Or is that flooring suitable weight on regular stumps and under board? I wonder.

Insulation:
I am on the verge of doing that myself starting small, and with a ceiling or two. isolating the electrics first of course.

I figure to start with my front entrance hall ceiling and laundry ceilings, and problem solve in a small area first, and with a small mess. And get a plaster to re plaster after me as I am not confident in cutting without ruining the plaster, and to the right size and other considerations.

Then I am likely to get on with the ceiling insulation of this front room/ sun room (where I talked about using pavers or such on the floor as solar energy batteries. Then the two exterior walls there.  And while the floor is in question, insulate the floor with hard sheets of insulation, or the paving/stones we have discussed, or you may be saying both?
The plan is to do all the exterior and ceilings progressively.
I am hoping to change some things e.g. remove an interior wall, and insert another wall and storage, and insert two doors where they aren't already, and retrofit double glazing progressively, eg second hand windows may work just fine. OR with regards to the window, DYI removable second glaze.

If the folk who may or may not authorise me to change the above to the structural features to create flow through, functionality and storage give me a green light then I will insulate as i go, not that I will be doing the structural work personally.

In terms of insulation for exterior walls:
John, I have been toying with the idea of avoiding installing wool on the inside behind the plaster, but wondering if I could record the outside after securing hard sheets of insulation.  The front room/ sunroom is an extension before my time and it is single brick. but the remaining walls are hardie plank panels or such (Not asbestos).  

Do you know others that have left that cladding intact and installed insulation sheets then new cladding on top of that? There is nothing wrong with the existing cladding, no cracks or gaps or holes etc to warrant removal of and it would be another barrier from the outside elements.
Or is it better to remove it to keep the sides of the building in line with the brick edge where they abut each other on the east and west of the building.
Then hard sheet insulation goes straight onto the frame of the house, and then a new cladding anyway.  (cannot salvage the existing cladding).

Then it is DONE.
I will from the interior do the ceilings and floors as the interior is recreated if the authorities give me a green light.

Hi there Henri
love your farm quote.
All patience to you.

I would love a thermal source for heating and cooking alike, via the RMH with a cob day bed etc.

I have not known the difference or realised there is a rocket and a cob that they are not one of a kind.
Thats interesting to explore each ones value for sure.

Hi David,
Thanks for your relevant response.

Yes, I agree that I need to stage and prioritise.
Its a new season of reassessing all mentioned within the context of the 'big picture'. e.g. after years of exploring and questioning and sorting and sifting concepts, ideas and means, an sources, and budgets about all manner of elements in the big picture i am finally SORTED within myself enough, LOL that I might actually get on and DO something about these matters in this home.

Having found this site is an enormous boost, to read others posts etc and have responsive replies to mine. So thank you for your assistance on this new level of my journey.

Insulation is my priority for sure, and then once I know  - see the other post to another Permie poster - what inside and minor structural changes I AM ALLOWED to do inside to make it flow, function etc then I can move forward on all fronts more confidently stage by stage.

Curtains are on the cards but once I am more certain about the structural changes green or red light then those chatels and goods will be part of the thermal care phase too.

Wow , many questions.
Are you down Cranbourne way?
How big is the house, I take it the roof is iron?
You may be able to shift the wall without asking the local shire.
Just talk with people that know what they are talking about.
Or send photos. I can.
Ceiling insulation
I would remove the roof and insert insulation from the top, then add sisalation [ good stuff] and then not have to redo ceilings and clean the floor.
Wall Insulation
There is a company that can drill holes outside in the cladding and pump insulation in the wall space.
I would not worry about aligning wall surfaces on the outside, it would cost a lot to do all that.

I dont understand the floor details;
- Is it a slab?
- Are the stumps really short?
-

Anne,
that's great insight for me to consider.
It makes me weight up if the floor only needs flat sheeting insulation and flooring atop.

I had considered how cold it would be on the coldest day.
So your message is a wake up call for sure, that it may not be as promising, especially if there is a week or weeks of no sunshine in winter.

I alike cosy but trying to find cosy in a new way rather than the existing heating (gas furnace with electric fan) which is a dinosaur in-wall appliance.
If the authorities would permit a RMH Id use that for a day bed and for cooking when its at its peak. But sadly they are not as alternative and green as I would like... YET.

So I need to decide how to keep cosy in winter without waste AS we all do/are.

Gray,
thanks for your post too.

Great insight that it is not going to make much impact for the outlay and trouble.

Thanks too, for the confirmation of needing night window covers.
See my other responses to others to get the over picture if you are inclined.

Just to reiterate to save you time, insulation for all outside walls is on my  MUST DO radar, either from the exterior frame or inside behind the plaster sheeting.
Then attention to the detail inside like night /curtains across single or replaced with double glazed windows (second hand or removable second glaze frames etc.)

Big thanks to you.

Thanks Nancy,
You're in England?

Thanks for your response, great encouragement toward getting on like a JUST DO IT nudge for insulating regardless.

Since i cannot heat with rocket mass heater as I would love to, unless my local authorities say go for it which I doubt, I am looking at WHAT sort of heat I want to keep in rather than the routine heating expenses - as we all are keen on.

With this new to me, infra red measuring device, I can monitor this winter without insulation, for each room, and then once insulated I am hoping to measure each room and the change I trust for each stage e.g. ceiling only, then walls then floors.

Once it is completed, I trust I can then seriously revisit my glazing/curtains, and what heating means I will decide on from there to meet the temperature gap between the new after insulating and the cosy temperature when sitting still (e.g. at a computer responding on Permis.com).

Thanks for being part of my journey.