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Tiny house plumbing Water Heater choices

denise ra

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posted 3 years ago

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I'm building a tiny house but need hot water for the washer for allergen cleaning. Therefore, a tankless won't work because they can't provide quick short bursts of hot water that my new front-loading HE washer needs - trust me, I've researched it. I thought a mini-tank worked like a tankless but it doesn't, it works like a regular hot water heater. Solar seems complicated and expensive but maybe it's not all that way - perhaps a passive system in addition to tankless would work, it's 100F and sunny for four months of the year, but 20F often in winter. I welcome discussion and suggestions. As it's a micro tiny house, space is at a premium.

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denise ra

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posted 3 years ago

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I only have electricity, no gas, no propane.

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John F Dean

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posted 3 years ago

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I have an lp fired tankless it works off a small LP tank. I can’t speak for the volume of water it produces, I use it for quick clean up, but it does produce immediate hot water.

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Anne Miller

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a tankless won't work because they can't provide quick short bursts of hot water that my new front-loading HE washer needs

I don't quite understand this though that is probably because I don't understand how the new washers work.

Would an electric RV water heater work? They are usually place under a closet so the don't take up space.

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denise ra

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Anne, I think RV heaters are mini-tanks.

It occurs to me that if I had some type of tank I could fill from the on-demand, that might work for the washer. I would only need to fill it when washing with hot, so there would need to be a shut-off or diverter of some sort-ideas? I'd have to find out the max hot the washer requires for the cycle I will use. I think better out loud, thanks permies.

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Marty Mac

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posted 3 years ago

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I used a Bosch 7 gallon electric water heater in my tiny house. I wanted something that my small Honda generator could run should the need arise. I don't live off grid but I do live at the end of it. My place is the last in the area for the linemen to get to because there are just 2 of us feeding off around a mile power line. I have been very happy with it! I was concerned with the small 7 gallon size but it works fine for me. It will give me 15 minutes of scalding hot low flow showers, then when the 7 gallons are depleted it seems to operate like an on demand heater. The water is no longer scalding hot but not uncomfortable to finish up a long shower. It seems to recover in about 30 minutes. I don't know if the 7 gallon size would fit your washers needs or not. It does fit in one of my base kitchen cabinets.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bosch-7-Gal-Electric-Point-of-Use-Water-Heater-ES-8/206428468?MERCH=REC-_-pipsem-_-205610804-_-206428468-_-N&

denise ra

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Marty Mac, great info about what happens when the water runs out. thanks for sharing your experience with a mini-tank. I will contact the washer company if i can and find out how much hot the washer needs and at what intervals.

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denise ra

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posted 3 years ago

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Here is a great article about adding a tank to a tankless and why you might want to do that. he uses a small 10-gal. tank water heater, which I think will take up more space than I want to spare.

The washer is the last appliance in line so I thought I can add a tank before it and after everything else, but then I started thinking about pre-heating water for the hot lines before it comes in the house - maybe a simple solar box on the ground? The sun is strong here, even in winter. This might be considered solar water heating, I suppose.

See why it's taking me so long to get the house built?

Why Add a Tank to A Tankless Water Heater PDF- finehomebuilding.com

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denise ra

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Here's another idea, though I don't really know how to read the diagram.

On-Demand Water Heater With Hot Water Storage Tank Diagram

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R Scott

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New HE washers tend to run water for a few seconds, turn and sense if any water comes out of the clothes, and then squirt water for a few more seconds and repeat. The idea is to only use as much water as the clothes will hold, but the unintended consequence is a quick on off cycle that short cycles on demand water heaters and creates nasty water hammer in old pipes.

I could easily set up a hybrid system for a house, but it would take a quarter of your entire floorsplace.

Were you planning to mount the system on the wall or do you have a little floorsplace reserved for a system?

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Marty Mac

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Denise,
If you have the time to do all the research and planning before hand, I think you will be much happier with your final design and build. I built mine in my urban driveway over the course of 4 years. Then moved it to its permanent spot in the Ozarks. 4 years seams like an eternity during the build. But I was in no hurry and it will be my retirement home.

My favorite hobby is fine woodworking. I milled all my own lumber and built all the cabinets and furniture to exact sizes so there is NO wasted space. As an example one cabinet performs multiple functions. One side is a medicine cabinet, the corner is a door jamb for the bathroom door, around the corner is a chest of drawers on the bottom and a hanging closet area on top. My electrical panels are also in that area. The whole house is similar one cabinet blends directly to the next performing multiple functions with minimal need to transform or move one thing to do another.

All this to tell you that the planning and research to maximize the small space and ease of use really pays off!! Far and away the most fun and creative project I have ever done!!

I hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine!

denise ra

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R Scott, Nope, no floor space, just walls.

Marty Mac, I'm wishing I had put in a tornado shelter to live in, then gotten a job while I took the time to decide my permie plan and learn the skills for housebuilding. I did more a jump off the cliff half-assed, having never done such an intricate project before. Some say 'brave', I say foolhardy. So here I am stuck in an apartment that is eating my house money while I figure things out. I'm the cautionary tale, not the good example. ;)

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Heather Sharpe

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I don't know the particularities of your washer or how the cycles work, so this may or may not work. I don't have hot water in my house, but do have a front loading HE washer (Whirlpool Duet). It has a sanitary cycle, which for the longest time I assumed wouldn't work due to the lack of hot water. Desperate to wash some particularly icky clothes, I tried heating some water on the stove top, starting the cycle, pausing it and then pouring the hot water into the wash tub. Low and behold, the washer has some kind of heating element in it or something, because the sanitary cycle worked! I checked multiple times throughout and felt serious heat emanating from the door. Way more than would be possible from just the initial boost of hot water I added. I wonder if it's possible your washer has something like this and you could do something similar? I did learn that at least for mine, it was key to start the cycle and let it go for just a minute before adding water, because otherwise the first thing it does is drain the wash tub.

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denise ra

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Heather Sharpe, thanks for sharing your experience, good info. I will try to call LG Monday and see what they say about an internal heater.

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Marty Mac

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I am wandering away from your plumbing question but may still be relevant. Have you started building yet? You mentioned your permie plan, do you have land? If so is a garage or tool shed in your plans?

My first home idea was a small barn to live in while I built a more comfortable living space. I abandon that idea because I have a tendency to strive for perfection and scrounge used materials for my building projects. = VERY time consuming. I was concerned I would cut corners to save time and hurry to improve my living space. I don't know how you are built but that approach would have me filled me with regrets of would have, should have, if only... I have friends and family that good enough is just fine. I can't say I understand but I know such people exist.

Would living in half a garage work? At least it would save the apartment rent and give you a larger space to work with. More space = less intense planning and more flexibility in furniture and appliances etc. etc.

R Scott

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Well, a couple options similar to that picture you linked.

You can hang a small electric tank heater on the wall with heavy shelf brackets.

Then, if you will have plenty of solar electric year round, you can get a controller to use it as a "dump load" and only run the water heater if the batteries are charged. You have to time laundry so it will be done and reheat the water for a shower before you run out of daylight.

If you don't have that much electricity, you need to also get a tankless heater and recirculation pump. It's that thing in the bottom of the picture going from the tank back to the tankless heater. When you turn the pump on, it will pump from the tank, through the tankless, back to the tank. That will keep the tankless on and keep heating the water in the tank. It needs to have a thermostat to not overheat the water, and a timer switch to not run ALL the time. Basically, you would turn it on for an hour while the washer is running, then the pump would stay off and act like a normal on demand heater.

denise ra

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Marty Mac, Nope, it's too late, i'm committed to an 8*20 shipping container - it's on piers and first layer of insulation is on, and door and windows are in.

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denise ra

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R Scott, I think my post about solar was confusing - I meant solar hot water, not solar electric. Sorry, thanks for your idea though. I could have solar hot water 6 months of the year without worrying about freezing. I wonder if it would be worth the trouble as I am not familiar with solar hot water systems?

I've been thinking about just adding a 10-gallon tank with a ball valve before the washer that I can fill from an on-demand heater before I run the hot water cycle. I'd have to either know the water would get used or have a way to use it if the washer didn't use it all.

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R Scott

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With how cheap solar electric panels have become, it is cheaper and WAY EASIER to heat water that way than a separate dedicated solar hot water system. At least anywhere that it freezes.

10 gallon tank and ball valve will work just fine. Just add a drain

R Scott

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New dishwashers mess with the cheap on demand heaters, too. They trickle the water in so slowly (to be quiet and not drop the water pressure in the house) that the water heater either doesn't even turn on or overheats the water because it's just a trickle.

I am probably going to do the holding tank and circulator pump for my next house, just because of those issues.

Phil Stevens

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I will second R Scott's plug for solar electric hot water. No complex plumbing hookup, nothing to drain for winter, nothing to corrode or leak, no need for a pump if the tank is too low for a thermosiphon, no expensive dual loop coolant system. If you have a sunny day, you get free hot water.

Our setup also uses a smart controller to dump excess energy into the hot water cylinder instead of selling it back to the power company at about 1/6 the price they charge us. It will heat the water all the way to 70 C before shutting off, and then the insulation can hold that for quite a long time.

denise ra

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R Scott and Phil Stevens, can you direct me to a diagram of the setup you're talking about? A rough estimate of cost of materials would help me know if I want to pursue this.

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