Do I need to be concerned about arsenic or lead in stuff like bone meal or commercial compost?

If yes, any advice how to avoid contaminated products?

There are certain plants that will absorb a lot of lead and arsenic. A quick Internet search will let you know which plants you need to be careful with. As for avoiding contaminated product.... Sigh... It seems like there's toxic gunk everywhere. Make most of what you need on your own property but even then, it's just out there. I figure as long as I'm trying my hardest to avoid what I can, and then I just have to let the rest go. Stress isn't good for anyone's long-term health and eating homegrown plants is better than eating grocery store chemically grown veggies is better than eating junk food so it's just about choosing the best options available.

Yes, this is a concern for all of us who need to get garden resources from off-site. When I buy gardening soil and amendments for growing food plants, I look for the OMRI logo. It gives me more peace of mind when it comes to feeding my family and having used store-bought horticultural products.

Rachel Lindsay wrote:Yes, this is a concern for all of us who need to get garden resources from off-site. When I buy gardening soil and amendments for growing food plants, I look for the OMRI logo. It gives me more peace of mind when it comes to feeding my family and having used store-bought horticultural products.

Unfortunately I don't think organic products necessarily contain less arsenic - at least, that's true for organic food products.

Sale of arsenic based drugs for poultry was discontinued in 2015, so hopefully this is not an issue anymore (unless there are farmers who are still using drugs they purchased in the past). But of course if the arsenic is in animal feed or if there is lead in the water, then I expect there to be possibility of As or Pb accumulation in the bones.

I was hoping there was a brand that published 3rd party results of testing for contaminants, as some supplement companies do - or brands that had consistently done well in testing by consumer groups. I guess this type of testing  isn't a thing for gardening products.

This is a good example why so many folks on the forum make their own bone meal and compost, especially if concerned that "OMRI" Certified products are not safe.

Bone meal is easy to make at home:

https://permies.com/t/160397/Bone-Meal

Bokashi is a way to compost in a small space:

https://permies.com/t/78784/Bokashi-Composting

I have started a compost pile, but we have very hard clay soil and I estimate I would need 1.5 cubic yards of compost for everything I want to do. So I have to buy some to get started. Can't buy/do that much at once due to health issues, unfortunately.

Bones leftover from meat or sold for soup would have same possibility of contamination.

Thanks to everyone that replied. Sorry to be such a downer.

It would be nice  if Consumer Reports or a gardening magazine or organization sponsored tests of popular commercials product to see if there are any problems.

Something  that might be interesting to study is whether supplying molybdenum would prevent arsenic uptake in plants - that's how it works in humans, anyway.
Foliar feeding might be an economical way to do it. If practical on a large scale it could be applied to rice crops. My daughter has Celiac so I think about arsenic exposure a lot. A study found increased neutrophil to lymphocyte ratio in people w/ CD on gluten free diet who ate mainly whole grains - but not those who ate mainly refined grains. My guess is this is due to increased As exposure from brown rice products.
Overall reduction in arsenic in the food supply would likely benefit the population as a whole.

Lh Forsythe wrote:Bones leftover from meat or sold for soup would have same possibility of contamination.

Is it okay to eat the meat from those leftover bones?

Did you read Consumer Reports about their testing of herbs and spices for heavy metals? It was crazy- even the high end stuff. I ended up tossing out a bunch of jars after reading the report but luckily I grow plenty of herbs for seasoning in my garden. I've just always been lazy about drying them for winter. Anyway it is appalling that there is no mandated testing of herbs and spices for heavy metal when it is such a huge problem.

Anne Miller wrote:

Lh Forsythe wrote:Bones leftover from meat or sold for soup would have same possibility of contamination.

Is it okay to eat the meat from those leftover bones?

Probably, if it's meat from farm animals. There was a study that found lead in chicken broth (the concern is that lead would leech from the bones  into the cooking water), but another study found the risk of heavy metals from various types of  bone broth to be negligible (but also not much benefit in terms of calcium content, either).
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23375414/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28804437/

Lead can be a problem in game meat.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29247605/

In living animals and people, lead can mobilize from bones into the blood due to bone resorption under conditions of stress and also during pregnancy, menopause and older age. This an issue for human health - another reason to try to keep bones strong with resistance exercise. Gardening is probably good for that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1242074/pdf/ehp0109-000995.pdf

Jenny Wright wrote:Did you read Consumer Reports about their testing of herbs and spices for heavy metals? It was crazy- even the high end stuff. I ended up tossing out a bunch of jars after reading the report but luckily I grow plenty of herbs for seasoning in my garden. I've just always been lazy about drying them for winter. Anyway it is appalling that there is no mandated testing of herbs and spices for heavy metal when it is such a huge problem.

Yes, CR does a good job. Disappointing news.

One of the things I want to do is grow herbs since I have not found any conveniently available brands that are gluten free certified. My daughter also has a whole slew of food allergies (oral allergy syndrome). If we grow our (own herbs we won't have to worry about cross-contamination w/ wheat or allergens.

Lh Forsythe wrote:

One of the things I want to do is grow herbs since I have not found any conveniently available brands that are gluten free certified. My daughter also has a whole slew of food allergies (oral allergy syndrome). If we grow our (own herbs we won't have to worry about cross-contamination w/ wheat or allergens.

I have a huge bunch of food allergies and oral allergy syndrome too. I'm always a fun surprise to eat with  Never know for sure when I'll have an unpleasant reaction. Have you heard of mast cell activation syndrome? I believe that it is related to oral allergy syndrome. It is a relatively new diagnosis and research is ongoing but it is very interesting about what they believe some of the root causes might be and possible treatments.

I've started growing a lot of the things I'm allergic to, for my family but also to see if I can find varieties that don't cause severe reactions. I think of myself as a walking experiment. I've already found that I can eat Painted Mountain corn flour (I'm allergic to corn.) But so far it hasn't worked with melons, another of my severe allergies- I have to wear gloves and long sleeves when I'm working with cucumbers and melons.

Jenny Wright wrote:

I've started growing a lot of the things I'm allergic to, for my family but also to see if I can find varieties that don't cause severe reactions. I think of myself as a walking experiment. I've already found that I can eat Painted Mountain corn flour (I'm allergic to corn.) But so far it hasn't worked with melons, another of my severe allergies- I have to wear gloves and long sleeves when I'm working with cucumbers and melons.

Just want to clarify that I DO NOT think that other people should experiment with eating food they are allergic to unless they are in a controlled medical environment under the supervision of a doctor. Just sharing my experience and that I'm a little bit crazy.

FYI, soil naturally contains arsenic so keep in mind that if the supplement you're adding only contains the same or lower levels of arsenic than average soil then it isn't something to be stressing about.

Normal arsenic levels in soil are 1 to 40 mg/kg with a mean average of 5 mg/kg.

Jenny Wright wrote:

Jenny Wright wrote:

I've started growing a lot of the things I'm allergic to, for my family but also to see if I can find varieties that don't cause severe reactions. I think of myself as a walking experiment. I've already found that I can eat Painted Mountain corn flour (I'm allergic to corn.) But so far it hasn't worked with melons, another of my severe allergies- I have to wear gloves and long sleeves when I'm working with cucumbers and melons.

Just want to clarify that I DO NOT think that other people should experiment with eating food they are allergic to unless they are in a controlled medical environment under the supervision of a doctor. Just sharing my experience and that I'm a little bit crazy.

LOL - I experiment on myself, also. I self-diagnosed with MCAS a few years ago. At around the same time my daughter's health crisis (she was hospitalized for intractable vomiting, that's when she was diagnosed w/ Celiac, the OAS diagnosis came later) I started having problems with itch & hives, then eczema. I'm allergic to corn, also. Things have changed a bit since then and after my flu shot which contained ovalbumin (I should have known better since I suspected at the time eggs caused eczema exacerbations) and now I have Sjogren's symptoms. My rheumatology appt is next week. Also have endoscopy in June for swallowing issues (possibly eosinophilic esophagitis [ EoE])

Reduction in exposure to aeroallergens is important for OAS symptom control. We are both allergic to birch pollen; the birch pollen allergen is interesting in that it is similar in structure to lipocalin 2, an iron binding protein the body uses for defense against pathogens. EoE is also linked to birch allergy. My daughter is also allergic to grass and mugwort.

I might try the corn variety - I just get skin problems from corn, no anaphylaxis. My daughter can eat corn, thank goodness.

O.K. I'm only going to say this once..... CHEER UP EVERYBODY! Using my mother's favorite sentence (bless her soul)...”Don't make me come up there”!! Or down there, or wherever. You all make very good points but I'm pretty old and I have to say I think the glass is half full and we have lots to be happy about. Like the Beatles once said (not those beetles... the other Beatles)... “It's getting better all the time”. I can remember when they sprayed DDT... on everything! And you never saw the word 'Organic' at the grocery store or anywhere else for that matter. We truly have 'Come a long way, baby'. Aren't I irritating? I'll stop now.

Johann makes a good point, our soils and air and water contain lots of nasty stuff. It usually does in small amounts. Spend 15 minutes in the sun and you'll get an awesome dose of vitamin D. Spend too much time in the sun and you might get skin cancer.  This is life on our planet. I've been gardening for 11 years now and just this past year learned that raw Lima beans contain  linamarin which turns into cyanide when consumed. CYANIDE! Raw red kidney beans contain large amounts of hemagglutinating unit (hau) which is very toxic to us in such high amounts. They must be thoroughly cooked before we consume them and then they are very nutritious. In fact we eat lots of foods that are/can be highly toxic if not handled right.   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7600777/

Lh, you make some really good points too. There's still a lot of bad stuff out there, especially stuff being peddled by big corporations and we should all be very, very careful of them. In the stores I see that they are still selling Roundup even though many countries around the world have banned it. Unsuspecting people can still buy Teflon pans even though they are made with fire retardant and are also banned by many countries. And lots of people still spread Ironite fertilizer all over their yards even though it says, right on the bags that it contains Mercury! And it comes from the mine tailings of a super fund toxic cleanup site in Humboldt, Arizona! Buyer beware!!! You can download and read the PDF letter written by Earthworks in 2002 trying to stop the sale of Ironite back then. https://earthworks.org/publications/letter_to_target_about_ironite_fertilizer/ . And Earthworks is still fighting for our safety.

But every coin has a flip-side. OMRI, the Organic Materials Research Institute is still the gold standard of organic. It was created in 1997 and it no longer mentions this on their website but if I remember correctly.... It was started by VOLUNTEERS!  To be certified by OMRI is expensive and very time consuming and we all benefit by that.  But remember, if a product states that it is OMRI certified, it simply means that it follows organic standards and does not contain herbicides, pesticides, heavy metals etc. It doesn't certify that the product will work..like you might not grow super, huge tomatoes or any tomatoes or kill the bugs that are driving you out of your mind! But your produce will be safe to eat.

Lots of states like California now have department that will certify a product as organic. The states of Washington and Oregon test samples of fertilizers for heavy metals every ten years or so and publish the findings. https://agr.wa.gov/departments/pesticides-and-fertilizers/fertilizers/metals . You can read their 'analysis.

Lh said.... “It would be nice  if Consumer Reports or a gardening magazine or organization sponsored tests of popular commercials product to see if there are any problems.” ...Consumer Reports is great but there are several organizations that do just that. A few good ones are... Earthworks as I've already mentioned and https://toxicfreefuture.org/. But the one website I go to the most these days is https://www.ewg.org/ . I check it out every couple of months. The 'Environmental Working Group' has been around since 1993 and it does exactly what you are asking for. Check them out. They test diapers and cosmetics and produce and all kinds of stuff and report what they've found and try to work with our government to tighten up legislation. And recently they have begun putting 'EWG Certified' on products that they have deemed to be safe and good for you.

You're all doing the right thing by questioning everything and being good consumers. And you're doing the most important thing of all.... you are growing your own food! And don't forget.... 'It's getting better all the time!' So, CHEER UP, DAMN IT! DON'T MAKE ME COME UP THERE.............

O.K. Lh asked the question.....Do I need to be concerned about arsenic or lead in stuff like bone meal or commercial compost?

And I thought it was a really important question and it became a very interesting discussion. So often I can't use some of the basic elements of gardening because the manures and straws and mulches I can get here are all contaminated with crap! Simple things like seaweed or in gardening...kelp meals are well known for taking up heavy metals which makes me wonder if anyone is testing the nori that I make into sushi or the kelp meal I put in my garden? So I posted a reply. And it seems, I shut the whole discussion down. I didn't mean to do that. I was trying to be complimentary and somewhat humorous and informative and I guess everyone took it wrong or were offended or something. So I apologize. I'll try not to do that again. I realize that not everyone gets my humor.

But I still think it's a very important question. So I'll shut up and I hope you all continue. Happy gardening everyone.

Debbie Ann wrote: it seems, I shut the whole discussion down. I.

Hey Debbie Ann-- I used to think of myself as "the conversation ender" because forum threads often just stopped after my comment-- many years later I realize it's not personal, especially here at Permies... it's spring (for you all up there, anyway), and I imagine everyone's out in the mud trying to get things in order. Even down here in southern hemisphere fall I spent my weekend planting my chinese cabbage and kale.
Thanks for sharing the links you did, they are informative.

As for the nori and kelp-- after the Fukushima disaster I know there was a lot of testing going on, but the directives I saw were general- avoid everything from northeastern japan. Which was ironic, because prior to that the common wisdom was to avoid seaweed produced in China because of pollution/mercury/etc. At this point here in South America I only have access to Chinese products, and that's what I buy. I can tell you we eat much less seaweed than we used to-- just like we eat less large ocean fish than we used to.
As you mention, I think it's a matter of balancing risk, especially when we don't have all the data (and we probably never will).