Paw Paw guild

Does anyone have experience growing paw paw trees in zone 7? any suggestions for a guild for them?

I know pollination is an issue. Bees don't pollinate them. I guess a fly does the pollination. I'd be interested in any plant that would help pollination. I've also read they like shade for the first few years so maybe a plant that would shade.

There are two flies that I know of which pollinate pawpaw: the carrion fly (left) and the dung fly (right).



Sadly pawpaw does not attract bees to pollinate the flowers. I have heard of a person who would hang rotting meat on the limbs of the trees to attract flies but I do not know how successful he was. I hypothesized on merits of using animals like cattle who and heavy eaters to attract flies in possible pawpaw orchards but again I have not heard of any cases which employed these techniques.



The other route is to plant foul smelling flowers the attract these flies looking for decomposing material. Voodoo Lily comes to mind. You have to be sure that the plants bloom at the same time as the pawpaw tree.

Being in the heart of dairy land, I have no shortage of flies. 1000's and 1000's of the little beasts. Unfortunately they are not dung or carrion flies. Guess I'll find out here in a few years if the tiny little twigs I planted survive the winter.

I'm working on developing a pawpaw guild myself right now in zone 6a. From my understanding they grow best in partial shade when young but produce best in full sun once mature. it's my 1st guild and first year so I wouldn't mind suggestions either.

The plants in the guild so far are

2 pawpaws (for pollination)
1 red currant
1 gooseberry
comfrey
daffodils
coral bell
sweet woodruff
kale
cleavers
garlic (this is a temporary item, I'm making use of this being early stage as there is a decent bit of sun in the area still)
morel mushrooms (not sure if they'll take - I mixed quite a bit of ash into the sheet mulch but only time will tell. This is one of my higher likelihood of failure experiments)
raspberries (planted slightly further out)

I plan on having the ground cover a mix of leafy greens. I'm going to add more fruit bushes as well.
One of my weaknesses is knowledge of perennial plants, so I'm mostly trying different things and seeing what works.

You can see more at my blog sumacsemantics.blogspot.com, but I'm not sure it is very helpful to you as I am just learning as well.
Maybe it will help facilitate some more discussion about what might work and what may not. My thought right now is that this is a sort of guild
one designs out of curiosity but the pawpaw itself is not all that practical as a food source.

From what I read Pawpaws are not effected by walnut. You could always butt up your pawpaw guild next to your walnut guild, or just add pawpaw to your walnut guild.

I grow pawpaws here in west pa, zone 5a
I have some growing just as a "patch" of just various size trees
I also have them growing in "food forest beds with berries, flowers, herbs, etc
they do not mind their head in the sun as long as their roots are in the forest
i mulch heavily with leaves, sticks, twigs, wood chips, etc to give them forest soil conditions
I tend to keep them the canopy layer here as sunshine here in cloudy pa can be the limiting factor

a good website about pawpaw growing is
http://www.integrationacres.com/story.html

Bryan Mets wrote:My thought right now is that this is a sort of guild
one designs out of curiosity but the pawpaw itself is not all that practical as a food source.

Why do you say that? The named varieties can be quite productive. The short shelf life is a downside, but the pulp can be frozen for use in baking and in smoothies. Fruit that are just starting to soften can be kept in the fridge for a couple weeks. With a couple varieties that ripen at different times, you can have fruit for a couple months.

I have only seen a couple wild stands, and the only herbaceous plant in the vicinity I recall was mayapple.

Since they are pest free, insectary plants for attracting parasitic wasps et al are probably not as high a priority in a paw paw guild as they would be for other fruit trees, unless you can come up with something that attracts the flies that pollinate pawpaw flowers. They can be slow to get going, and can take several years to reach fruiting size, but respond well to nitrogen, so N-fixers should be a priority. Pawpaws want to grow a deep branching tap root, so if your soil is dense, add plants that are good at breaking up soil.

Alex

Why do you say that? The named varieties can be quite productive. The short shelf life is a downside, but the pulp can be frozen for use in baking and in smoothies. Fruit that are just starting to soften can be kept in the fridge for a couple weeks. With a couple varieties that ripen at different times, you can have fruit for a couple months.

I have only seen a couple wild stands, and the only herbaceous plant in the vicinity I recall was mayapple.

Since they are pest free, insectary plants for attracting parasitic wasps et al are probably not as high a priority in a paw paw guild as they would be for other fruit trees, unless you can come up with something that attracts the flies that pollinate pawpaw flowers. They can be slow to get going, and can take several years to reach fruiting size, but respond well to nitrogen, so N-fixers should be a priority. Pawpaws want to grow a deep branching tap root, so if your soil is dense, add plants that are good at breaking up soil.

As I said, I'm learning so it was just a thought. What I mean more is that I wouldn't design it as a staple crop. At least in my zone.
My only experience though is with wild paw paws and the yields in the strands around here (southeast Michigan) are not very good.
Maybe specific cultivars could increase that but I do not see it becoming a large portion of a diet
To me it would make more sense to use the pawpaws a part of a guild designed around another plant/plants, or after you already have other perennial food systems in place.

Thank you for your tips; they've definitely got me thinking a little more. I'm going to have to go back to the wild strands with a camera in spring and take records of the other plants in the areas.

I like permaculture, it makes me feel stupid in a very good way.

Here are some articles on the nutritional value of Pawpaws:

http://www.petersonpawpaws.com/Facts.php
http://www.pawpaw.kysu.edu/pawpaw/cooking.htm

Pawpaws have an EXTREMELY long tap root and (under normal circumstances) are able to mine their own nutrients. And since their pollinator is only attracted by the foul odors of manure, rotting flesh, and the Pawpaw’s own nasty smelling flowers, a “traditional” guild will offer little to no benefit.  

The rare and beautiful Zebra Swallowtail butterfly owes its existence to the equally unique Pawpaw tree because it is the only place it will lay its larvae. However, other than some leaf eating, it does no real damage to the tree. Another pest, the Pawpaw Webworm (Omphalocera munroei) may appear in the fall, but like the rare Zebra butterfly, any damage it causes is also more cosmetic in nature.

Neither are the usual garden pests a significant burden for the Pawpaw due to its natural built-in defenses: “Pawpaw plants produce natural compounds in their leaf, bark, and twig tissue that has high anti-pesticidal properties. Because of this natural defense, and because pests that are attracted to the plant rarely do significant damage, treating pawpaw pests is generally unnecessary.“

However, the Talponia plummeriana moth is a concern.  The moth larvae eat the fleshy parts of the Pawpaw bloom, killing the flower as they then tunnel through gbe peduncle and into the branch… hence no fruit production.  I hope to never encounter this nasty pest once my Pawpaws begin to flower.  Death to all borers and bountiful harvest to all.  👍

Does anyone have an opinion about Pawpaws planted in the vesinity of Black Walnut? I planted many saplings and two more established trees and most haven't made it through the winter. I thought they would love the location but perhaps not Juglone tolerant. I would like to have the fruit on my farm for nutrient value. Should I transplant them away from black walnut?

pawpaws are definitely juglone-tolerant. a have several planted between existing black walnuts and they get mulched pretty heavily with walnut hulls every year. they’re growing like mad. there must be something else going on there. (edit for clarity: when i say ‘mulched pretty heavily’ i don’t mean just by the fallen nuts from the trees they’re by, i mean 20+ gallons volume per tree of pure black walnut hull from our nut processing facility, every year for three or four years [depending on the tree, not questionable memory])

i have noticed that pawpaw seedlings will sometime die back to the ground and come back from the roots a couple times before they really start growing in earnest. i know that doesn’t explain your older trees.

Not from personal experience but I've seen many references that Paw Paw are juglone tolerant. The Steve Gabriel and Ken Mudge book- Farming the Woods is one source. I am growing Paw Paw in a shady corner of my chicken run, hoping to put the flies to good use as pollinators.

Tara Green wrote:Does anyone have an opinion about Pawpaws planted in the vesinity of Black Walnut? I planted many saplings and two more established trees and most haven't made it through the winter. I thought they would love the location but perhaps not Juglone tolerant. I would like to have the fruit on my farm for nutrient value. Should I transplant them away from black walnut?

This probably is a result of pawpaws being difficult to transplant rather than proximity to a Black Walnut. With pawpaws from my state nursery, I expect a 20-30% survival rate through the first year. If you are trying to transplant a pawpaw sucker you dug up, then the survival rates will be even lower.

I guess I am hijacking the thread.
Thanks for the info posted here about pawpaw.  
We are in zone 5b, on a high sandy spot in the middle of a swamp.
My wife surprised me with 2 sticks that claim to be pawpaw, purchased from Burgess Seed and Plant Hopefully they grow!
Another friend got Pawpaw trees from Nash Nurseries.  They have lots of named cultivars.  We may get some from that source next year if these do OK.