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Tree for coppice near a vege garden?

Posts: 45

Location: SE Australia

posted 2 years ago

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Hi all,
I have a new vege garden area approx 12 m long with great sun, on a slight slope to the east. I have planned a 3m wide windbreak perennial area at the east end within the fenceline, & am having a hard time deciding what to plant there - mainly for windbreak purposes (the wind can come down the slope fairly strongly at times) but of course also fulfilling other needs would be great. I'm also looking at coppice/pollarding species & wondered if I could use any of those in that area... does anyone know if the roots of things like weeping willow, mulberry, birch, linden, chinese cedar will take over the vege garden too much, if those trees are kept trimmed quite short? Will the root system take up the same space as a fully grown tree would??

Any suggestions for useful plants for windbreaks appreciated...would love to grow something like kiwi but not sure we have the time to put structures up for it to climb on, I'd love to get this area planted asap....

William Bronson

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I have a mulberry right along a driveway wall that I pollard yearly.
It seems to keep the roots in check.
All of my coppiced or pollarded trees are volunteers but I'm cultivating black locust trees and Siberian pea shrub specifically for coppice.
Elderberry might be good as well.

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Matt McSpadden

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Hi Jonie,
I would throw out hybrid poplar and hybrid willow as fast growing wind break trees that could be coppiced. They can also be used for animal fodder if you ever have the need.

Specific to the roots concern. Coppicing/pruning any plant will cause the roots to die back. I have heard that a general rule of thumb is that the plant will have an equal amount of root mass compared to the above ground mass. (Someone please tell me if this is incorrect, so I don't spread it more). If this is the case, then whenever you cut off the tree, the roots will die back to the correct size, and by default keep the roots in check. It doesn't mean there won't be a long stubborn root that comes up right in the garden where you don't want it... but it will keep the number of roots down.

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Jonie Hill

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Location: SE Australia

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Oh yes, certainly I should have remembered that assumption, that some roots die back when the top is cut...well, supposedly that's what happens with grass, so presumably with other plants as well! Though, I'm not sure I want to assume...better do a bit more research!
I wish we could get hybrid willow here but seems to be non existent. Hopefully I can get some hybrid poplar. I definitely was interested in the fodder aspect, as well as all the other potential uses of coppiced/pollarded species. Just would keep it out of area near the vege garden if advisable....

Casie Becker

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A lot of dryland native trees will have much more below ground mass than above. Mesquite is a good example with roots that can go down 100s of feet and spread dozens of feet past the tree's upper edges.

Matt McSpadden

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Hi Casie,
I know the root system can certain be longer or deeper than the tree, but the premise was the total mass. Long and skinny might have the same general mass as a short and thick branch. I could be wrong with the whole thing, but I wanted to clarify, it's not the length specifically, its the total mass that is supposed to be roughly equivalent above and below ground.

Ben Zumeta

pollinator

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Tree roots are often 10x the above ground biomass for the first 5-10 yrs, especially in dry places and species adapted for it. They generally extend 1.5-3x the diameter of the crown.

That is not a bad thing though if managed well. 30-50% of sugars produced are released as exudates to feed the soil microbes, which will facilitate nutrient exchange. When you prune the trees, the roots that die back under your garden are basically injections of compost, with improvements to drainage, infiltration, fertility and aeration. Linden, in addition to being great for pollinators, are particularly powerful dynamic accumulators that can be coppiced for nutritious leaves in addition to poles.

This is all just my opinion based on a flawed memory

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Amy Gardener

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the wind can come down the slope fairly strongly at times

The responses given have been perfectly direct and very helpful so please disregard the following if it is not relevant.
In trying to get a mental image of the situation, I am struggling a bit. It sounds like the trees will be at the top of the hill, which is east and the prevailing wind comes from the east and blows west. In my desert world, which could be very different from your environment in Australia, the morning sun is the best sun for a veg garden. Assuming that you want morning sun at your ideal growing season and that sun from the west is scorching hot, at what height will the trees block the morning sun? Is the wind extra strong at a certain time of year (is there a time of year when you really want that windbreak and other time when it is not needed)?
How tall would you ideally like the windbreak to be? Are you open to other useful plant ideas besides trees?

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Matt McSpadden

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Hi Ben,
That is good to know. Do you have any research or articles talking about this? Mine was completely hearsay, but sounded plausible. I'd love to learn more if there are any resources on that topic.

Ben Zumeta

pollinator

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Sure, always a good question for someone spouting “facts” in the internet. That was mostly from my recent reading of Edible Forest Gardens vol I (Jacke & Toensmeier), primarily the chapter on root structure. The info from this Mid Atlantic focused book varied some from my research on PNW Conifers and Redwoods (ie Redwood Ecology, Noss 1998), which at upwards of 350ft tall and 200ft wide are an exception to many rules about trees. The roots growing up to10x the above ground biomass comment was paraphrasing from A Way to Garden podcast episode about oaks.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/margaret-roach-a-way-to-garden/id370801678?i=1000515388085

I am trusting these sources and my memory of them, I have not done the digging and measuring myself!

This is all just my opinion based on a flawed memory

Douglas Alpenstock

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Be careful with poplars. Many varieties sucker like crazy if the main tree trunk is damaged or disturbed. This is their natural behaviour as early succession forest colonizers of disturbed soil. They will sucker through a garden with glee, sucking out the moisture and nutrients. I've been fighting a multi-year battle with a white poplar root system that thinks my hugel bed belongs to it. Aargh!

Jonie Hill

Posts: 45

Location: SE Australia

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Amy Gardener wrote:

In trying to get a mental image of the situation, I am struggling a bit.

Thanks for trying to understand my situation...
Sorry my description wasn't very accurate...maybe this image will help!
It's a very gentle slope where the veg garden will be, where I was thinking of putting some windbreak plants in is SE not directly E. The top of the hill 130m or so beyond there blocks the early early morning sun, but still even in winter the garden gets sun from roughly 8.30am till 4pm. The wind is actually more often from the West, but we have the occasionally strong easterly, sometimes with rainstorms.
I don't really need trees there and I think I have decided now not to bother putting any trees in that space, as a windbreak. I have planted a few fruit trees along the southern side of the veg garden & will be looking at what nitrogen fixers are appropriate for in between those....can't find false indigo in Aus, I have some pigeon pea seeds, tagasastes I grew probably a couple of years ago & are itching to get out of their pots, and I could get some Australian indigos, though I am unsure exactly how high their N fixing capabilities are....but there is not much wind from that direction because of the native bushland not far away so I don't Need to grow tall plants there.
For the SE side of the garden I'm now considering using the space for a post & wire setup with kiwifruit & passionfruit & chinese yam. Kiwis should provide a fair amount of wind protection once they grow up, though I don't know how long they take to grow. While I wasn't originally intending to plant beyond the fenced garden area at this stage, I think it is probably best to grow some coppiced trees on the boundary fenceline so it's further away from the garden...

Map_back_veg_gdn.jpg

John Indaburgh

Posts: 523

Location: SW PA USA zone 6a altitude 1188ft Grafter, veggie gardener

posted 2 years ago

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If it were me I would only plant wind break trees from the bush/small tree at the south west corner of the house over to the woods to the south east.

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