Forum:

cattle

permaculture feedlot???

andrew curr

Posts: 288

Location: Deepwater northern New South wales Australia

posted 7 years ago

do such places exist in usa if not why not???
do any of you folk use feedlot manure any tips???

we have to forest our farms and farm our forests

Kari Gunnlaugsson

pollinator

Posts: 308

posted 7 years ago

'Permaculture Feedlot' seems like an oxymoron to me.

The feedlot model just doesn't seem very permie...(truck cattle to feedlot, truck feed (monoculture industrial crops) to cattle, contain cattle in close / unhygienic / inhumane quarters, dose liberally with prophylactic antibiotics, growth hormones, anti-helminthics, truck cattle to large industrial scale and inhumane processing facility, process and package meat and truck across the country, watch out for e. coli and whatever other sort of bacteria that can explode in these conditions...)

I'm old fashioned but i like cattle out on the land, grass fed, working to build soil, cycle nutrients, manage the nature of the vegetation..

Could be a manure source, I suppose..but I'd be cautious of what is in it in terms of livestock disease, de-worming chemicals, antibiotics and god-knows what else. Also supporting an ethically questionable industry.

Depending on your application it might be a compromise you could live with.

Have you explored options for keeping a few small livestock of your own?

John Polk

steward

Posts: 7926

Location: Currently in Lake Stevens, WA. Home in Spokane

318

posted 7 years ago

Here in the USA, the word 'feedlot' is almost a synonym with 'animal cruelty'.

Feedlots here seem to specialize in maximizing weight (fat) gain as rapidly as possible ie, maximum profit.

Over 90% of the beef sold here as 'grass fed', is actually "finished" on grains in feed lots.

Here, it is wise to know a farmer. Find one who raises on pasture from weaning to butcher.
They are rare, but they do exist.

Kari Gunnlaugsson

pollinator

Posts: 308

posted 7 years ago

Plus one for buying your beef straight off the farm. Feedlot beef is from unhealthy animals putting weight on too fast with unnatural food, and the food value is compromised too. You'll quickly learn to tell grain finished beef from grass fed by the flavour and the colour of the fat.

I didn't see the australia location...I wonder if the word could mean something different there?

andrew curr

Posts: 288

Location: Deepwater northern New South wales Australia

posted 7 years ago

STOP!!!
i meant real farms where they have a few hundred calves and they have several oaks,gleditsia,robinia,willow yadayada and they fatten the calves on acorns,hickory punkin yada newengland permaculture
i need an it person

we have to forest our farms and farm our forests

Kari Gunnlaugsson

pollinator

Posts: 308

posted 7 years ago

Got it. Interesting. I'm not sure anything like that exists in Canada. It might.

Having that many animals here would probably mean selling on the regular market. That puts you in direct competition with the factory feedlots, and the one thing they really do well is produce stupidly cheap beef on a pound basis (lots of subsidy and externalized costs). It seems like most people who do natural beef need to direct market and charge a premium in order to make a living, and the time demands of all the marketing / selling / management tend to limit herd sizes here to something quite a bit smaller.

People tend to avoid using the word feedlot here because it often provokes the reaction you just got

andrew curr

Posts: 288

Location: Deepwater northern New South wales Australia

posted 7 years ago

your USDA did all the recearch on this stuff in the 1920s /30s
JRussel smith did lots of head scratching in his 1950s book Tree crops a permanent agriculture
so why are you all growing corn to produce 2nd rate beef when you could have beef fed on acorns, pecans honey locust etc etc
i assure you it is a vastly superior system
My ambition was within 15 years to prove we didnt need feedlots ,it has taken me 20 (i shouda done pdc earlier) we are droucht proof here now

I also believe we should have permaculture detention centres for refugees (when you get your PDC your free)my ancestors had a similar aprenticeship called a ticket of leave,not that i really support them being detained in the first place but the majority do and we are a democracy ! One of the senior staff in charge of refugees here resigned before xmess because there was no potential to provide work to the detainees

we have to forest our farms and farm our forests

Glenn Underhill

Posts: 95

Location: NW Montana

posted 7 years ago

andrew curr wrote:...My ambition was within 15 years to prove we didnt need feedlots ,it has taken me 20 ....

Have you done any work in this area, feeding beef with trees? I would love to hear about the details.

I looked up the book on Amazon.com, it's like $52 so I put it on my wish list.

Miles Flansburg

pollinator

Posts: 4665

Location: Zones 2-4 Wyoming and 4-5 Colorado

464

I like...

posted 7 years ago

Here is the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Tree-Crops-Permanent-Agriculture-Conservation/dp/0933280440

how permies.com works
real sounding name policy

Glenn Underhill

Posts: 95

Location: NW Montana

posted 7 years ago

The reason nobody does it is its hard to justify investing time and money for a chance of payoff 2 decades later. Its like saying 'why is nobody planting black walnut trees - the wood is so valuable!' For most of us its hard to invest in a future such a long ways off when we are struggling to get by NOW.

The permaculture way would be to make the system start paying now, but if you want cattle now, you have to feed them grass or other faster growing forage.

I like the idea and I want some cattle, so I think I will keep it in mind and plant nut trees in my cattle pastures. Even if it doesn't work out for the cattle, something will eat it so why not?

Kari Gunnlaugsson

pollinator

Posts: 308

posted 7 years ago

And there is climate and ecozone. ( Acorns, Pecans?? he gazes across frozen windswept landscape spotted with shrubby clumps of aspen and sighs wistfully...) Different places demand different solutions. Pasture and hay work here.

andrew curr

Posts: 288

Location: Deepwater northern New South wales Australia

posted 7 years ago

Glenn Underhill wrote:The reason nobody does it is its hard to justify investing time and money for a chance of payoff 2 decades later. Its like saying 'why is nobody planting black walnut trees - the wood is so valuable!' For most of us its hard to invest in a future such a long ways off when we are struggling to get by NOW.

dont you have family farms???

The permaculture way would be to make the system start paying now, but if you want cattle now, you have to feed them grass or other faster growing forage.

I like the idea and I want some cattle, so I think I will keep it in mind and plant nut trees in my cattle pastures. Even if it doesn't work out for the cattle, something will eat it so why not?

we have to forest our farms and farm our forests

Glenn Underhill

Posts: 95

Location: NW Montana

posted 7 years ago

I get your point, but family farms are becoming a thing of the past here. Our government REALLY does not want us to sell food unless we are part of the industrial agriculture complex. I can imagine a day when it will be illegal to sell or give away vegetables, or even to grow your own. Four or five years ago I wouldn't have believed it, but nothing surprises me anymore.

We here at permies are part of a miniscule minority, I think.

Kari Gunnlaugsson

pollinator

Posts: 308

posted 7 years ago

And you need to be able to survive financially in the short term in order to still have a farm (with all the great long-term projects on it) to pass on to the family...

andrew curr

Posts: 288

Location: Deepwater northern New South wales Australia

posted 7 years ago

yes i know we model ourselves on you guys
that is why there is a state of the art japenese owned long feed feed lot 15 km from here following the ancient fuedal practice of having a warlourd who takes all their poo that they cant handle legally and dumps it in a questionably legal fasion on the farms that grow the grain the big are getting bigger and the small are getting out

bizarr speak of the devil and he doth appear;;;;just spoke to a Japanese woofer on the phone he knows about mr F so should be fun hope he has a camera

we have to forest our farms and farm our forests

Juan Pedro Ortiz

Posts: 21

Location: Land of Oz

posted 6 years ago

Hey Andrew are you still around?
I'd love to hear/see more about your farming practices, have you got any photos of what you've created?
I've got a small farm in Victoria and have been thinking about doing this exact thing...I'm just 18 years behind you haha

thanks mate

andrew curr

Posts: 288

Location: Deepwater northern New South wales Australia

posted 6 years ago

I think there are some pics on facebook
or i have a shit website newenglandpermaculture.com There are a couple of videos there ,,,,must do some more
victoria is a good place to do it! plenty of acorns etc ,get in touch with the Ottway forest group or whatever they are called
Give us a call if you need anything
Ive made plenty of mistakes, but also learnt a few tricks!

we have to forest our farms and farm our forests

R Scott

pollinator

Posts: 3653

Location: Kansas Zone 6a

117

posted 6 years ago

Miles Flansburg wrote:Here is the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Tree-Crops-Permanent-Agriculture-Conservation/dp/0933280440

That book is free pdf download. https://ia700204.us.archive.org/21/items/TreeCrops-J.RussellSmith/TreeCrops.pdf

"You must be the change you want to see in the world." "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Mahatma Gandhi
"Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words." --Francis of Assisi.
"Family farms work when the whole family works the farm." -- Adam Klaus

andrew curr

Posts: 288

Location: Deepwater northern New South wales Australia

posted 6 years ago

Probably time to act on the 90 year old info in that book

ESPECIALLY PLANT BREEDING!!!

we have to forest our farms and farm our forests

Cj Sloane

pollinator

Posts: 3738

Location: Vermont, off grid for 24 years!

103

I like...

posted 6 years ago

Kari Gunnlaugsson wrote: And there is climate and ecozone. ( Acorns, Pecans?? he gazes across frozen windswept landscape spotted with shrubby clumps of aspen and sighs wistfully...) Different places demand different solutions. Pasture and hay work here.

Kari, if you're still out there, Aspen makes a pretty good fodder/forage for cows. It's at least 15% protein.

My project thread
Agriculture collects solar energy two-dimensionally; but silviculture collects it three dimensionally.

I can't beleive you just said that. Now I need to calm down with this tiny ad:

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