Energy optimized secure healthy permanent computing?

Hi permies,

I am looking for ideas for an energy optimized secure healthy permanent computing device(s).

General resource I've found interesting: https://permacomputing.net

Things I've thought about:

Hardware

CPU or processor

Generally, newer CPUs are more energy efficient for the performance they provide.
This chart ranks CPUs based on typical TDP reported by the manufacturer related to the performance they measured: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/power_performance.html

GPU

Whatever is integrated in the CPU, additional or external ones require a lot of energy.

Storage: HDD vs SATA SSD vs NVME SSD.

SSDs are generally regarded as better when it comes to energy and also performance. I've found conflicting evidence regarding whether SATA or M.2 NVME are more energy efficient. Those are usually rated at idle, average, peak read and peak write.

RAM or memory

There is almost no information online regarding specific usage, everybody says it's negligible. I've only found claiming around 3W peak for 1 stick of 8 GB.

Power supply

Those usually have low efficiencies under low load (as bad as 50%). I've seen picoPSU suggested.

With all components, there are idle states and not all CPUs support all idle states.

One other option is to go the prebuilt route like for example this miniPC from ASRock https://www.asrockind.com/en-gb/4X4 BOX-5800U that only consumes total 6.7W at idle and the power supply is 90W so I assume at most 80W at peak. But then I am limited by what they offer. And a fan is one more thing to fail which I would rather avoid. I would however prefer my device to repairable if I need to repair it.

One other miniPC is the one from Starlabs https://nl.starlabs.systems/pages/byte which focuses on security and they provide an open warranty. It starts at ~€800 for 8GB / 240GB / a relative new and powerful CPU. It also only has 45W TDP and a 65W charger meaning it will burn less energy than the ASRock.

There are some other projects too but they seem more like enthusiast projects and not something that has been tested for a long time or is price competitive:
This one is more focused on being open hardware and easy to repair. But it starts at €1099 for only 4GB of RAM and an extremely slow CPU (for security reasons). A laptop also means I am limited to (or paying twice, if I use other) using their screen, keyboard. It adds more batteries which decreases the efficiency of the whole system + one more thing to fail.


Or the balthazar https://balthazar.space/wiki/Balthazar which I am not sure even exists, it seems more like an idea and experimentation, correct me if I am wrong.

Screen
I believe for health reasons, it's better to use a non-backlit screen.

Electrophoretic displays or more commonly known with their brand name E-ink are the first thing that came to my mind. They look paper like and are used on e-readers if you've seen one of those. The downside is clear - most are black/white only and the refresh rate is very slow.

Big advantage they have is that they require power only when updating. Such display will continue displaying the last thing when the power is off.

One example is this one: https://www.waveshare.com/product/displays/e-paper/epaper-1/12.48inch-e-paper-module-b.htm

It's 12.5 inches, costs $180, has three colors and low power consumption. 82.5mW (0.0855W) when updating. However, it takes full 37 seconds to update. This is not suitable for general computing.

Another one from the same manufacturer is this one https://www.waveshare.com/10.3inch-e-Paper-HAT.htm

It's only 10 inches, costs $200 but updates in less than 1 second, requiring 1.2W during update. It only has gray colors.

Both are more barebones displays with no frame that require other things to connect them.

These displays, of course, require an external light whether that's the sun or artificial.

One more general purpose is the DASUNG at https://dasung-tech.myshopify.com/products/dasung-25-3-e-ink-monitor-paperlike-253

This one is more general purpose as it has 20Hz refresh rate = 20 times per second, it has a stand, connectors, it's 25 inches and so on. It requires a 12V 3A supply so 36W, it probably uses less. But the 12V is nice as it pairs good with 12V battery systems. No colors but it has a front light so it can be used somewhat in the dark. However, it's $1899 discounted.

After all that, I learned about reflective LCD.

These again require light but are colored and are suitable for a lot of refreshes unlike e-ink.

The only real product I was able to find is the SunVision https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/reflective-lcd-monitor and the newer one https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/rE-Monitor

It's 60Hz which is standard for displays. It's quite big at 32 inches. Consumes less than 6W which is ideal. Uses 12V/3A which matches good with a 12V battery system. Cost is $1750 and $1950. New one looks more modern and has standard mounting holes.

Other peripherals
A keyboard with lighted keys is nice to have if using it in a darker places but lights on a mouse are a waste of energy. In one other thread I saw this video
where a heated keyboard and mouse are presented. I am not sure if those are off the shelf available but even if they are I doubt that real ergonomic keyboards are sold like that.

When I say a real ergonomic keyboard I am talking about a split keyboard that does not force your hands to form a triangle by being split and one that has keys that follow your finger lengths.



Obviously, wired keyboard and mouse are preferable compared to a wireless bluetooth or WiFi connected ones that have failing batteries that have to be replaced or recharged and require the main device to have bluetooth/WiFi on.

Software

Creating an operating system from scratch would be best case scenario but that has low return on invested time especially if creating it for myself. I would like go the Linux route as that's what I am using now and am comfortable with and it offers more choices.

When it comes to the software, I feel like it's important to mention to use an adblocker because in this day and age, the internet is filled with unnecessary ads that waste energy. No ads means more security too. Disabling JavaScript and/or images/videos is a more extreme approach but also possible.

The internet itself alongside everything required for it (a router if it's normal home routed internet, cables and/or WiFi, a SIM card connection if not routed, etc.) requires a lot of energy too. I would prefer to avoid it as much as possible and stick to downloaded offline content and generally doing stuff offline. I plan on not having any signal when I settle and only going to a place that has signal or internet when I need it.

In general, graphical software would waste more resources than terminal interface programs but those require more learning to use.

There are various alternatives that could be used like curl wttr.in to get the weather in your terminal instead of visiting a heavy page.

A window manager (like sway or i3) that's mainly managed through the keyboard when learned is more energy and time efficient to use compared to a desktop environment. One exception I found is IceWM which is a lightweight desktop environment.

An IMAP/SMTP client (whether terminal or graphical) would be better than a web email client.

A locally downloaded media would be better than online one.

There is the possibility to create software made to use specific sites in a lightweight way that would be offline first. For example, a program that lets you browse recipes from that one slow website. It also downloads them so next time you don't need internet to access them. Such software would be only energy efficient if used by more people as otherwise the time and energy spent on creating it will outweigh the energy saved from not using the real heavy website. It also require maintenance.

I will update this or make a reply if I think of something else.



Let me know your thoughts and ideas, I would be really happy to see other points of view.

Hardware

Another Mini PC I found is the Station M3 https://www.stationpc.com/product/stationm3

It uses an ARM CPU (Rockchip 3588S) that's about as powerful as a modern Android smartphone CPU (Snapdragon 888). Has WiFi, Bluetooth and Ethernet. Has HDMI 2.1 and DisplayPort 1.4.

It supports 4 to 16GB of RAM and has support for both NVMe and SATA SSDs

The interesting thing here is the power consumption.
Idle: ≈0.42W (12V/35mA)
Typical: ≈3W (12V/250mA)
Max: ≈14.4W (12V/1200mA)

The power supply is also 12V DC which is nice and 1.5A (18W) and up is recommended with 2A (24W) included in the box.

Price starts from $264 for 4GB/64GB eMMC up to $539 for 16GB/256GB eMMC + 512GB SSD at https://www.firefly.store/goods.php?id=171 (couldn't find it anywhere else but it has to be available elsewhere too)

I think for that CPU, expectations should be lower but I really like how low of a consumption it has. There are not much reviews of it online, sadly.

Welcome to Permies, Angel.

Have you looked into the single board computers like the Raspberry Pi and such? My friends at Ameridroid distribute them from a number of companies and they all have a ton of computing power when compared to their electricity needs. Ordoid H3

When Low-Tech Magazine built their Solar Powered Website they used a single board computer.

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:Welcome to Permies, Angel.

Have you looked into the single board computers like the Raspberry Pi and such? My friends at Ameridroid distribute them from a number of companies and they all have a ton of computing power when compared to their electricity needs. Ordoid H3

When Low-Tech Magazine built their Solar Powered Website they used a single board computer.

Hi Jeremy,

I follow Low Tech Magazine and have read a lot of their articles. What they have for their website is a bit of a different use case, it's mostly used to deliver files (images, code) to the user, while a general purpose computer would do more.

I've looked into SBCs, in fact, the last one I posted in this thread, the Rockchip one is an SBC.

The website you linked is interesting indeed, but I am from Europe, just updated my location. And the device - ODROID - is interesting too but it uses more power overall and also the power adapter is 15V/4A which is not ideal.

Nice opening here. That Balthazar project might develop into something formidable, but is currently still in the conceptual stage. I think this thread represents a similar project, but I'd label it "Pandora's Box". The design of a permaculture laptop Is going to follow the basic principle of "it depends".

I heard Paul recently make a comparison between the efficiency of rocket mass heaters and cars. I think it applies to computers as well. Is a Prius or a dumptruck more efficient? Calculate how much it would cost to move a few tons of gravel from a quarry to your back yard if you think this is a no brainer.

How much of a load will you be putting on your processor? For basic efficiency, if you aren't doing heavy lifting like media editing or GIS, an ARM chip might be enough and will be a big energy saver. Details around the power supply will be calculated based on the processor for whole units, so those details don't need to complicate the picture at this level.

For me the MNT Reform looks like the best bet. A mechanical keyboard with brown switches and a trackball would present a huge interface improvement over a normal laptop, eliminating my current practice of carrying these devices separately and all the bulk/hassle involved. The 18650 batteries it uses are common to a few other devices I use and perform much better than any standard modular batteries, particularly in the cold. The ARM chip is underpowered compared to the mainstream Intel/AMD processors, but will take care of basic functions. It can also be upgraded in the future as chip technology advances.

The issue for me is an investment risk based on durability and future support. If it can stand up to a decade of travel abuse and provide parts for upgrades, the price would be well worth it to me. It's main competitor would be a used $50 laptop every year or two as it falls apart or behind in tech. A savings in money but the trade off is the hassle of dealing with marginal equipment (not designed to be marginal like an ARM chip). Keeping it out of a landfill for a few extra years is not a big deal if it is headed there soon anyway.

Those ePaper screens are very interesting, but I think would involve a rethinking of how we interface with this medium at a pretty high level...

I had looked into heated mouse/keyboard close to ten years ago. The only ones I found were on Amazon and had gone out of production with numerous complaints of technical failures. Looking at the options linked at the richsoil.com links this continues to be a problem- that keyboard is no more. Mouse 'garages' seem like a good bet with a couple options at Amazon. Just making something yourself out of surplus wool fabric might work as well without electric heat, maybe incorporating a hot water bottle? There are also a few whole desk warming pads advertised. Maybe seed tray warmers could be applied to the same purpose?

Angel Woods wrote:Hardware

Another Mini PC I found is the Station M3 https://www.stationpc.com/product/stationm3

It uses an ARM CPU (Rockchip 3588S) that's about as powerful as a modern Android smartphone CPU (Snapdragon 888). Has WiFi, Bluetooth and Ethernet. Has HDMI 2.1 and DisplayPort 1.4.

It supports 4 to 16GB of RAM and has support for both NVMe and SATA SSDs

The interesting thing here is the power consumption.
Idle: ≈0.42W (12V/35mA)
Typical: ≈3W (12V/250mA)
Max: ≈14.4W (12V/1200mA)

The power supply is also 12V DC which is nice and 1.5A (18W) and up is recommended with 2A (24W) included in the box.

Price starts from $264 for 4GB/64GB eMMC up to $539 for 16GB/256GB eMMC + 512GB SSD at https://www.firefly.store/goods.php?id=171 (couldn't find it anywhere else but it has to be available elsewhere too)

I think for that CPU, expectations should be lower but I really like how low of a consumption it has. There are not much reviews of it online, sadly.

I'm not sure about idle and typical consumption numbers, but this unit looks all around similar to the Pinebook Pro which had the same maximum power draw. Except the PBP is a bit less expensive and includes monitor, keyboard, and battery bank. None of those are outstanding specimens of their purpose, but price wise it is a great deal.

If you want it more customized, looks like you can buy a raw SoC, the Rockpro64, which has comparable performance numbers, and assemble all the components around it from their store. Looks to be under $200 all told for about the same thing the Station M3 is offering.

The power consumption seems to be linked to basic architecture with a clear distinction between ARM and conventional chips (Atom/Nano chips are in between for consumption, but not enough performance improvement over ARM to justify it). Specific ARM chips have a minor variation between them compared to that.

Well, as I see it, the best path is to extend the useful life of existing technology.

The laptops I divert from the chipper have a great amount of embodied energy -- and I think it is wise that their useful life should be extended as much as possible.

Linux in all its flavours and forms makes this possible. A 15 year old system still has practical value, in knowing hands. So does the disposable netbook-style glued-together laptop I'm typing on right now, which should be dead and recycled, but guess what, it's still hard at work.

In short: I suggest harvesting the commons where discarded and recoverable devices await someone with skills and motivation. My 2c.

EDIT: And this trickle will become a flood as many Windows 10 devices are declared obsolete in 2025, and unable to run Windows 11. A glorious avalance of free computer equipment awaits us!

I feel like we covered a lot of this ground in this thread https://permies.com/t/40/190426/environmentally-friendly-laptop-buy

But the reflective panel display looks really interesting.
Personally the change in light source (blue light...) doesn't make much difference to me. But the fact that you're no longer fighting but using other light sources, is revolutionary. Not fighting the sun or have to position your desk at certain angles massively improves the flexibility.

It also remove the least reliable part of the design, aside from physical or electrical damage, most failures that I've seen have been the backlight.

My questions for the technology are now about mostly about pixel density. My standard work setup is two, full HD~, 24" screens. I could probably move to a 32" 4K screen for multiple windows.
I don't think 32" at HD would work for my desk setup. But this would be perfect for the noticeboard TV's that I'm responsible for at work.

I'm guessing that using reflected light means that pixel size is directly related to pixel brightness. when you shrink a pixel, it's light gathering capacity is shrunk.

One thing that bugs me is their advertising. A comparable competitor would be something like a Samsung T5300, max power draw 75W, not the 400W that Sun Vision are claiming.
They could easily claim that their product uses 10 times less power, which would still be amazing, far more accurate and far less disingenuous.

I second everything Douglas said, although I'm not quite in his league. My macbook pro has just had it's 10th birthday.

Ooooh, I just had a thought. This would make a great replacement for LED walls!

I'm an AV technician and I could see this being excellent for outdoor concerts.

James Alun wrote:I feel like we covered a lot of this ground in this thread https://permies.com/t/40/190426/environmentally-friendly-laptop-buy

Yes we did! Thanks for posting the link.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:
In short: I suggest harvesting the commons where discarded and recoverable devices await someone with skills and motivation. My 2c.

EDIT: And this trickle will become a flood as many Windows 10 devices are declared obsolete in 2025, and unable to run Windows 11. A glorious avalance of free computer equipment awaits us!

Well, it depends. Since that other thread I've poured a bunch of time into my old tech with little return. I'm trying to cobble together a power block to work with one laptop while debugging an OS install for my PBP, and other laptops have just become bricks at some point. I am stuck using a windows backup install on an old ThinkPad.

Now that it is full on winter I have more time to dedicate to this stuff, but all that recent futzing contributed to my running out of time to complete my RMH this season.

Now that I've looked closer at the numbers I see my old notebooks have 10X the power draw rating of something with an ARM chip. I haven't found solid numbers on idle and normal usage to compare, but I suspect the difference is consequential. This makes a big difference on my solar battery demands.

Not being impressed with where the 'raise awareness' crowd has brought us, I'm focused on 'having awareness'. Being off grid with an appropriate array is a key element of this for me. I think it would be very helpful to permies' healthy growth to find/help develop an affordable and reliable computing platform that would work well in such an environment.

If we are talking bigger big picture, I'm concerned with supporting an industry that continues to pump out superfluous, wasteful machines. Making use of stuff that is more or less being discarded has many merits, but the more I do it the more I think about how I might be enabling irresponsible behavior by producers and first tier consumers. I feel it is important to approach the problem from multiple angles.

Coydon Wallham wrote:Being off grid with an appropriate array is a key element of this for me. I think it would be very helpful to permies' healthy growth to find/help develop an affordable and reliable computing platform that would work well in such an environment. ... I feel it is important to approach the problem from multiple angles.

Fair enough. There's a lot to be gained from this discussion.

As the OP notes, the OS software development side is a huge job if starting from scratch.

The hardware side is tricky too, since the standards keep changing and evolving. If the system is going to interact with the wider world, it will be a game of whack-a-mole to keep up.

Using discarded tech means the hardware problems have mostly been solved, at least for a while.

For energy efficiency, discarded (unsupported) Android tablets can be had for cheap/free and reflashed with other Android versions that run well on old hardware. These are incredibly energy efficient in comparison to laptops.

Writers who want super-portability and battery life have been wrangling with this discussion forever. For example, many have been using the Alphasmart Neo and Dana for years. A Neo holds a novel of text, has a decent keyboard, runs 700 hours on 3xAA batteries, has a passable reflective LCD screen, and sends text to your other tech with a simple USB cable.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:As the OP notes, the OS software development side is a huge job if starting from scratch.

The hardware side is tricky too, since the standards keep changing and evolving. If the system is going to interact with the wider world, it will be a game of whack-a-mole to keep up.

Assuming general purpose computers are suitable to permaculture in the first place, I'd think any FOSS OS would be a good match. I'd recommend Arch as a Linux distro with a steep learning curve built on the principle of understanding the workings of the machine you are dealing with and simplifying the design for ease of trouble shooting. I think OSs that have the interface dumbed down to give easier access to end users are like chemical fertilizers to the extent that they are shortcuts that poison the long term process. If you don't care to become that familiar with all the inner workings personally, finding someone that can set up and maintain it for you in person would be a wise choice.

For hardware I don't see a call at this point to step outside what is being produced as mainstream components and using those associated standards. Barring something going sideways with lingering pandemic concerns around Asia, I'd say it is a matter of finding quality manufacturers and piecing together appropriate equipment. It seems like Framework, Pine64, and MNT are all smaller groups doing this with varied success. Maybe there are manufacturing processes that are better or worse ecologically and some leverage could be applied there?

It might help the hardware picture [regarding the need to keep up with evolving tech interfaces] to categorize the goals of a given machine: to handle basic internet protocols and communicate with known others; to participate in basic public internet activity along the lines of current linear development; or to dive into the bleeding edge of full meta-verse immersion...

I'm not sure if this would really be 'permies' quality as it might embody greater manufacturing inputs than alternatives, but to meet Angels desire for an ergonomic split keyboard, you can't beat the Keyboardio 100 (if you can afford it). Real wood luxury...

Coydon Wallham wrote:
If we are talking bigger big picture, I'm concerned with supporting an industry that continues to pump out superfluous, wasteful machines. Making use of stuff that is more or less being discarded has many merits, but the more I do it the more I think about how I might be enabling irresponsible behavior by producers and first tier consumers. I feel it is important to approach the problem from multiple angles.

I'm not concerned by it. Ok, I am but whilst the problem is at a macro economics scale but it's not purely an economics problem.

Many large companies will work on a 4 year replacement cycle (every computer get replaced every 4 years) which is supposed to be the point where it makes more sense to buy new than employ someone to fix it. This looks like a basic economics problem, tech is cheaper than it should be. However, this isn't always the driving factor.

I work for a largish charity and our replacement cycle is ... 5 years. The reason is that finance isn't the primary driver but reliability and downtime.

Big organisations will continue throw out devices regardless of anyone else's buying choices. If they can get a bit of cash for their old tech, then that's cool but getting nothing or even getting charged to get rid of old equipment won't change the model (it might move the crossing point on the graph from 4 to maybe 5 or 6 years) because the productivity loss cost is too high.

In short, you might as well take advantage of the better build quality of corporate machines because they will be available anyway.

Coydon Wallham wrote:
Since that other thread I've poured a bunch of time into my old tech with little return. I'm trying to cobble together a power block to work with one laptop while debugging an OS install for my PBP, and other laptops have just become bricks at some point. I am stuck using a windows backup install on an old ThinkPad.

Now that it is full on winter I have more time to dedicate to this stuff, but all that recent futzing contributed to my running out of time to complete my RMH this season.

You've just proven some of my point.


As for ARM vs Intel/AMD.

Coydon Wallham wrote:
Now that I've looked closer at the numbers I see my old notebooks have 10X the power draw rating of something with an ARM chip. I haven't found solid numbers on idle and normal usage to compare, but I suspect the difference is consequential. This makes a big difference on my solar battery demands.

Are you going to notice the difference with intermittent use? Bearing in mind that the screen size (more accurately brightness) choice has more power variability than the processor use. (turning down the brightness on the screen will change the power use more than the processor load or even choice)

I've just run the numbers form my work setup. Over the last 73 days my deskspace has used 32.6 KH/h. Using this calculator https://sunwatts.com/solar-calculator/ I would need a 600w array if I was in a location with only 1 sun hour per day. I'm trying to suggest that if a rig that uses 2 external monitors, an i7 proccessor and 16gb of ram uses so little power, then the laptop is a very small fraction of energy use.

Also, going for the slightly wider view, we're going back to the old argument of new and efficient vs old and inefficient.  Using numbers from https://circularcomputing.com/news/carbon-footprint-laptop/, using a power hungry laptop for 15 years takes as much energy as building it.

Given that there isn't much difference in building an efficient laptop vs and inefficient laptop and that these things will eventually need disposal anyway, I would say that used wins.

I would propose the following model for general computing.

Businesses buy well built, efficient machines. Taking into account the demands of their users, HR gets basic solid stuff, video editors get powerful stuff. Then when the business decides that the productivity loss isn't worth the extra cost of fixing stuff (around 4 or 5 years) it sells the basic laptops to anyone who just wants to watch youtube and write emails and the beasty machines to gamers and home content producers both of whom keep the machine for 10-15 years.

This would allow for 25% of complete losses and assumes that there is a steady state of approximately twice as many consumers as business users. The consumers can more readily absorb the productivity loss of having to take their computer to a repair shop every so often.

I wouldn't stop the businesses building decent, reasonably powerful machines. I would stop all the consumer grade tat that flies from manufacturers to landfill, briefly via someone who can't use half of it's potential.

This is probably the uncomfortable bit for me as I admit that my tech footprint has probably been higher than the average muggle's as I have destroyed a fair bit of kit while learning about it. (I'm think of the 6+ hard drives that I killed by overclocking the processor without realising that the base frequency also affects the front side bus frequency).

(All of my number guessing is based on using CO2 emissions as the equivalent of energy, which is a bit rubbish but I don't have the resources to do it better)

 
Back to ARM vs Intel/AMD, if we're talking continuous, headless, very low level use then I agree with you. My Syncthing server is a Moto G6 with a cracked screen that I got given for free. (SBCs like Raspberry Pis are frankly too much hassle to be dealt with except as a learning tool/toy when manufacturers have done all the hard integrations for you in an old phone)

You may have a better chance with open source/ultra efficient phones as a lifecycle model paradigm shift. The business life cycle is 2-3 years because Google (and the manufacturers) are absolute ****s about forcing updates that break compatibility.

This discussion is fascinating and echos several others on site recently that I've read. The basic question of them for me was "do you build a perfect solution or use something off the shelf to get you most of the way there". For my solar work it involves questions like do you install a DC fridge or freezer with no conversion losses but at three times the cost or accept an inverter and it's day to day energy conversion losses.
For tech in this house we are mostly browsers and communicators. My 15 year old Dell laptop was rebuilt with a new hard drive, new battery, was wiped and reloaded with software for $200. It's second monitor uses more power than the computer. The girls just use Chromebooks with incredible battery life. That is one facet of the conversation I would like people's ideas about: the move to cloud computing. My accounting recently changed from a desktop QuickBooks to cloud based. I like it as it makes the turn around faster so it's worth the monthly cost. It seems like the trend. Spotify, Netflix have reduced my need to compute and shifted it outwards. How does that affect the tech discussion? The processing power seems to be moving away from most users to servers...

James Alun wrote:

Coydon Wallham wrote:
Since that other thread I've poured a bunch of time into my old tech with little return. I'm trying to cobble together a power block to work with one laptop while debugging an OS install for my PBP, and other laptops have just become bricks at some point. I am stuck using a windows backup install on an old ThinkPad.

Now that it is full on winter I have more time to dedicate to this stuff, but all that recent futzing contributed to my running out of time to complete my RMH this season.

You've just proven some of my point.

How so? I'm thinking that proving some of a point is the same as not proving a point.

If I had known about the MNT a year ago I would have invested in that and probably had a machine that just worked all year. Instead I relied on the PBP I had recently bought used which showed that the much more efficient processor was able to handle my normal workload, but also to not be of robust construction suitable for my environment. I had a fleet of old End Of Life laptops as backup, but one by one their problems proved to be a hassle that conflicted with the purpose I intended to use them for.

Using an EOL device isn't just about putting X number of years into a useful service period column on a spreadsheet. Complex systems fail partially in confusing and mysterious ways at inopportune times. Customizing interfaces, syncing data and learning the quirks of a machine are all investments that feel like painfully wasted time and energy when said machine decides to give up the ghost.

For people who have time and expertise it is a good option, but many people won't consider it worth investing in. I'll put in a plug here that in a premaculture community you are more likely to have an individual with that time and ability to help the group make use of tech this way.

But most of all it doesn't make sense how it is being presented here as some sort of option in a 'cage match' opposing discusion about optimal design. If the topics the OP started here are fleshed out and a better laptop design is found/drawn up, a business interested in boosting it's permaculture cred could buy those, use a more efficient machine for longer than the normal life cycle, then sell the machines ten years down the line to permie individuals who are into it and who will continue to reap the same benefits. Then we'd all be winners!

Anything that reduces the mountain of e-waste gets my vote. I agree that it's not either-or.

It think it's also useful to define different levels of end users and their needs in terms of processing power and reliability.

For someone who primarily surfs the Web, the hardware is basically an appliance -- they can use just about anything. If it fails, so what?

For someone like me, whose work is mostly done online (as defined by the client), the failure of a system is annoying and inconvenient, but easily resolved.

But there are also mission-critical users, who need high reliability. Like any small business, I have a lot of material that is on local hard drives. Having those files corrupted by wonky hardware would be a significant problem, requiring a lot of time and effort to recover.

Coydon, I wrote out a rebuttal to each of your points, left it for a day and then deleted the whole thing as not really helpful.

I'm not trying to draw a dichotomy about optimal design but I may be doing it accidentally.

I still prefer the used business machine model but for those who don't want to learn about it all and fall into Douglass' first two categories, I think something like the Mirabook would be the best solution. Using a phone as the base computer gets you all of the power optimisation you want, should mean that the ecosystem is familiar and removes any data sync problems. The problem is that all your eggs are in one basket, drown your phone and you drown your laptop. It also helps that it's half the cost of the MNT, is fanless and aluminium body but it looks like it might be vapourware.

I think this is my partly my problem with stuff like Pinebook and MNT. It's all great and opensource but I've seen lot's of these projects just shrivel and die. And when it does die, it doesn't matter how open source it is because you don't the capability to manufacture your own semiconductors. I've been a computer geek for over 20 years but maybe at 33, I'm old and cynical.

I still standby this.

 

I think I mentioned it above or in the other thread, none of this is about creating new standards. Perhaps something with adopting the non back lit screens might involve that, but that seems like something else entirely. The projects mentioned are all taking components with established production and making different models out of them, using the same standards the mainstream is already chugging along with. Once a decent user base is established, it shouldn't be that difficult for a motivated individual to take over parts supply if the founder(s) loses interest.

Better model designs are obviously possible, and there are an indeterminate number of people interested. This isn't as important as something like a rocket mass heater, but there is a significant symbolism involved if little else.

And we can't bring up xkcd without being sure to take care of our duty...