New to this - rotational grazing sheep/goats and LGDs.

I'm looking for critique and ideas - I'm new at this, and trying to picture how it will work and fit together.  

We bought a horse farm of 200+ acres woods/trails and hay.  There's no perimeter fence, but 3x 4-acre HILLY pastures we don't want to mow, 4 connected paddocks and 2 more separate paddocks - about 1.5 acres total, all with (currently broken) jug watering systems.  All fencing is white vinyl horse fencing that will have to be upgraded (long term plan is living fence).

We want to: rotationally graze a small flock of sheep and goats, protecting them with livestock guardian dogs.  

Sheep/goats for: mowing the hills, improve the soil, snuggle the animals.  Bonus if we can get milk or wool, but it would just be for homestead use - no huge production.  Zebus could be an option as well.

LGDs for: protecting the sheep/goats, and (separate) chickens, chasing deer from the garden.  Predator pressure isn't very high, but there are definitely black bears, foxes, coyotes, hawks in the area.

Big questions:
Do we get the animals first or the LGDs first?  What is the order of operations?  
Do the LGDs get fenced in with the rotating animals or do they free roam the whole farm?  How does this work, on a practical level?  If they're free-roaming, how do they bond with the animals that are fenced in?  If they're in the fence, how to they work the rest of the farm?

Hi Kelley,
I have never raised LGD's, but I have watched a lot of youtube. Until someone with more experience comes along, I'll share what I can.

In a perfect world, you would get both at the same time. If that is not possible, I would get the animals first, so there is something for the Dog to bond with.

You mention multiple dogs, and I believe the recommendation is to wait a few years with one dog, before getting a puppy. That way the first can train the second more easily than two puppies.

I have seen some dogs who will take a whole farm as their territory and protect all of it from anything. However, most of the time, I see dogs guarding a specific set of animals in a fenced area.

Kelley Kennon wrote:I'm looking for critique and ideas - I'm new at this, and trying to picture how it will work and fit together.  

We bought a horse farm of 200+ acres woods/trails and hay.  There's no perimeter fence, but 3x 4-acre HILLY pastures we don't want to mow, 4 connected paddocks and 2 more separate paddocks - about 1.5 acres total, all with (currently broken) jug watering systems.  All fencing is white vinyl horse fencing that will have to be upgraded (long term plan is living fence).

We want to: rotationally graze a small flock of sheep and goats, protecting them with livestock guardian dogs.  

Sheep/goats for: mowing the hills, improve the soil, snuggle the animals.  Bonus if we can get milk or wool, but it would just be for homestead use - no huge production.  Zebus could be an option as well.

LGDs for: protecting the sheep/goats, and (separate) chickens, chasing deer from the garden.  Predator pressure isn't very high, but there are definitely black bears, foxes, coyotes, hawks in the area.

Big questions:
Do we get the animals first or the LGDs first?  What is the order of operations?  
Do the LGDs get fenced in with the rotating animals or do they free roam the whole farm?  How does this work, on a practical level?  If they're free-roaming, how do they bond with the animals that are fenced in?  If they're in the fence, how to they work the rest of the farm?

I do not have experience with either sheep or goats but I'm pretty sure that you don't keep them together in the same herd. Perhaps you mean sheep OR goats but I wanted to mention this since you are new. I think they have different nutritional needs (minerals) and I am not sure if the males of each would get along. I would check with people who know more than I do about it. I raise chickens, rabbits, cows and pigs.

Hi Kelley,

This wasn't your question, but I wouldn't graze sheep with goats unless you have really serious fencing, which is hard to do rotationally.
Goats - as you may have heard - are escape artists. Also they need a lot of browse (shrubs, trees) so they won't do as well on pasture as sheep will.

Goats are wonderful but they're tricky. The only way we can rotate our goats through different areas is to tether them to one spot, and that can be tricky because you have to make sure that they don't get caught or choked by the tether. Even so, they often break free and go for our nearest fruit sapling!

Do we get the animals first or the LGDs first?  What is the order of operations?  
Do the LGDs get fenced in with the rotating animals or do they free roam the whole farm?  How does this work, on a practical level?  If they're free-roaming, how do they bond with the animals that are fenced in?  If they're in the fence, how to they work the rest of the farm?
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We raise dairy goats and grass fed hair sheep and got an LGD two years ago on rotating pastures. I'd get livestock first and take your time finding the perfect dog for you. A good breeder will help direct you to the best of the litter for your needs, and you can find a pup that was raised around small ruminants for an easy transition.

Research LGD breeds and see what characteristics are most important to you and your farm and needs.  They vary SO much. We got a Colorado Mountain Dog that is 1/2 Gp, 3/8 Spanish Mastiff and 1/8 Bernese Mtn Dog. He's better at being super cute and lovable and very friendly than he is at being trustworthy with the livestock. That's our negligence in training mostly.

A perimeter fence is a must before livestock, IMO.

Hi all,
I think having sheep and goats together is fine, but search “multi species grazing “ to find out more.

The sheep and goats do have different mineral needs, and the amount of copper a goat needs might kill a sheep, but people DO have goats with other animals.  And I have always dosed the goats with “copper oxide wire particles”.  I also gave them kelp, free choice.

Goats LOVE pasture.  They also love brush and trees and bark off fruit trees, and so on.  But if the soil is developed, and it’s diverse species pasture they thrive, just as well as on brush and browse.

I think you are worrying a lot because of how much you want it to work, which is wise and normal.  IMO.

And I had an LGD, a Komondor, on unfenced pastures with the goats and sheep the year I had sheep.

There are no guarantees but one… no one makes it out of here alive.  But really, if you pay attention to your animals and pasture, and talk a lot about what you observe, and wonder about (permies is a good place to come for resources and conversations), then it will work out.

The dog comes with 1000 years of breed experience.  Much of what they do is innate.  They seem to protect their herd (and humans and territories are part of it) from a deep attachment, from love, not innate aggression.  They learn their territory and routine, and they survey it constantly, and investigate.  They do rounds.  They are very intelligent, and bred to make independent decisions… which translates into being slow to do what someone tells them to do.  

I didn’t get goats until my dog was 4 years old.  Not a problem

An important consideration with super intelligent dogs:  it won’t work to punish them or expect them to conform to your expectations.  It works better to be follow a partnership model.  If you are a heavy handed dog trainer, the dog won’t necessarily learn what you think you’re teaching.  With the LGDs I have known, it’s all about love and trust and patient communication.  They take 2-4 years to mature, and then suddenly you can’t remember when the last time was that there was a “misunderstanding…”

About goats and fences….. the saying is “you can’t fence a hungry goat”.

I know you said you don’t have a boundary fence but what I did was I had a perimeter fence which kept the dog in, which in turn kept the predators out.  I had portable electric fencing to move around for the goats, and I had a secure  enclosure 5 foot high horse type mesh (2inch by 4inch) with several gates into separate areas that I could put the goats onto.  Their water, a feeder, their minerals their shelter, and the milk room were attached to or within the enclosure.  This was at the home place.  It was summers that I took them up to unfenced mountain pasture.  There on the mountainside I had a lion proof night enclosure.

A man i knew devised a method of fencing which he said held goats for rotational grazing.

He had steel rebar posts he pounded into the ground.  He had insulators on those posts… 3 I think, maybe 4.  He strung single strand electric fence wire… poly with metallic running through, and he attached a powerful shock generator to the set up.

You don’t want a weak shock or a sporadic shocker.  It needs to be a strong jolt every time.  Many solar powered shockers fail at this.

Something to know about goats and fences.  If you improvise a fence you think will hold them for awhile, and it does, but one day it doesn’t, and you go find where they are getting out and you fix it, and you repeat the cycle a few times (normal enough for humans) what else is happening is the goats are being trained to check the fence for weak spots, trained to believe that no fence will hold them.  You definitely do NOT want to do that.

One bad actor goat escapist will teach the others how to get out.

Goats jump.  If you use a shed with a low roof as a segment of your fence, a goat may jump onto the roof, cross to the other side and jump off.

Goats are very smart, they are individuals, and some are a lot naughtier about getting out than others.  They are a lot of fun, and if your neighbors are far enough away, maybe it won’t matter if they get out…

They have different temperaments, some are leaders, boss type goats, some are docile followers.  In a pack string of goats there’s a leader and there’s a caboose, and in between, there are those who are keeping track to be sure everyone is there.  They know who they are, and I have found it’s best to believe them when they self identify.

I had a leader goat who wouldn’t tolerate certain behaviors from the other does.  I was very grateful that she was not too rough with the others.  If she had been, I would have had to cull her.

When tethering goats, consider tying the goat by the back leg/foot.  They get more territory for the same amount of rope.

Be sure to keep your sense of humor and adventure.  It’s a learning process!  You, the livestock, the dogs, the chickens, if you get them…. you’re going to form a community.  It’s going to be so much fun, and things will work out.

Best wishes

On livestock nutrition/minerals...It's easy to keep sheep and goats together. Most folks would copper bolus the goats, as Thekla mentioned. We do a mineral buffet (FCE brand) and the sheep and goats just eat what they need and want, copper included. I believe humans don't know nearly as well as the animals do at getting what they need to thrive.

We all have our rules for who gets to ride our farm buses...ours is no assholes allowed. That includes jumpers, dams that don't know how to mother, hard to handle animals, headbutters, etc. It's a pretty peaceful collaboration and we've had zero issues. A consistently hot electric fence is key.

Buy the best stock you can afford and find out how they were raised. Try to find breeders with compatibility to your own. I love raising small ruminants!

Hey Kelley, we raise our dairy goats with two LGD. We choose Pyrenees. I would consider any LGD breed that is best for your terrain and climate. I've heard it's best to keep one dog, but we adopted a brother and sister. They love playing and hanging out with each other.  When it's two dogs, one dog usually takes the lead on guarding and barking. We have coyotes, foxes and bears near by.

Fencing, we trained our goats to hot wire. Put a little banana or fruit something on the fence. A goat will try to eat it and get a little shock and know the herd knows to  leave the fence alone.

we rotate the goats and dogs weekly. They seem to enjoy the rotation. we have considered a perimeter fence for a large part of the property but haven't got there yet.

Goats do seem to prefer browse and it's better for parasite management. However some times ours are on pasture. they are doing just fine.

congrats on the property.

I'm not the OP but I just learned a lot about goats - thank you!

Agree that partnership is the way to go with intelligent dogs though mine are Shepherds.
When we land on our forever place, we place to build a perimeter "channel" of two fences that
they can run around the whole place but not with the animals as my female has a very
high prey instinct that I didn't want to train out of her.

We had a shepherd once that was raised alongside chickens and didn't bother them.

PS not saying shepherds over LGDs, it is simply we had them when we decided to
start homesteading in earnest so we are figuring out how to make it all work.

Sena Kassim wrote:

Fencing, we trained our goats to hot wire. Put a little banana or fruit something on the fence. A goat will try to eat it and get a little shock and know the herd knows to  leave the fence alone.


Goats do seem to prefer browse and it's better for parasite management. However some times ours are on pasture. they are doing just fine.  

I LOVE this idea about teaching the goats about the hot wire!

And I agree that the parasite point is important!  If you can’t get the goats to new territory every day, then they do pick up parasites from eating today where they pooped yesterday or the last few days.  When keeping my goats penned, I always used a feeder, and deep bedding so that they didn’t eat from the ground, and the poop fell through the spaces between the straw.

I did once have an older doe get a dangerous parasite load, it can be fatal!  Just like multi species grazing, there is a lot to learn about goats and parasites!  I used the FAMCHA chart to monitor parasite load, diatomaceous earth to treat.  Mostly I tried to prevent rather than cure.  A lot of people swear by commercial wormers, but most goat digestive system parasites are resistant to those wormers.

I rotationally graze sheep and goats and cows and donkey all together as a "flerd", my paddocks are about an acre each.  I do not separate males from females, and they all seem to breed once a year and lamb / kid all within a week or two in the Spring.

Recommend get your fence and watering set up before you get livestock. Consider "triangular jump gates" for your LGDs so they can access all parts of your farm. But move their food in a live-stock proof feeding sled with an automatic dog kibble feeder (weather-proofed of course)

Also recommend getting experiencedLGDs before the livestock or very soon after getting livestock. Do no be tempted raising LGD puppies yourself with at least one adult experienced LGD to teach them and discipline them.  Believe me, we learned the hard way, when I tell you to happily pay $1000 to $1500 per dog  for a mature farm experienced/ trained LGD. It might be a year and a half before puppies are reliable and mature / brave enough to fully take on an LGD role. And you are MUCH better off having at least 2 mature dogs, more if you can afford it. We have Great Pyrennes.  We have been through 2 adopted fully grown pyrennes with sub-optimal backgrounds... again dont waste your time and try the "cheap" route of adopting from the dog pound or Pyrennes (or other LGD Bbreeds) rescue places. Im sure there be some who disagree with me, but these are MY experiences. In the future we will bite the bullet and shell out the $1500 for a good proven LGD from a trusted source.

Jasmine Mind wrote:Hi Kelley,

This wasn't your question, but I wouldn't graze sheep with goats unless you have really serious fencing, which is hard to do rotationally.
Goats - as you may have heard - are escape artists. Also they need a lot of browse (shrubs, trees) so they won't do as well on pasture as sheep will.

Goats are wonderful but they're tricky. The only way we can rotate our goats through different areas is to tether them to one spot, and that can be tricky because you have to make sure that they don't get caught or choked by the tether. Even so, they often break free and go for our nearest fruit sapling!

We run our goats and sheep together with our cows, alpacas and LGDs and they do just fine with our Premier1 Poultry netting. Our sheep actually cause more problems than the goats do, lol! They like to eat weedy stuff and trees, but overall they do just fine on the same pasture as all of our other animals.