I just dropped the price of
the permaculture playing cards
for a wee bit.

 

 

uses include:
- infecting brains with permaculture
- convincing folks that you are not crazy
- gift giving obligations
- stocking stuffer
- gambling distraction
- an hour or two of reading
- find the needle
- find the 26 hidden names

clickity-click-click

  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic

Diy scythe  RSS feed

 
Posts: 295
Location: North Carolina zone 7
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello friends! I'm in need of a sturdy scythe to use on my homestead. I hate the noise of a string/blade trimmer but my trusty bush axe doesn't have the proper angle to take weeds down at ground level. Apparently scythes are very popular now and I really don't want to pay the prices I've seen. However I'm up for making one but would need instruction and any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all of you for helping me be more self sufficient! Scott
 
master steward
Posts: 3922
Location: Anjou ,France
204
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Have you thought of using a sickle ?
Scythes are much more difficult to make I would have thought . What sort of area are you looking to cut ?

David
 
Posts: 6154
Location: Arkansas Ozarks zone 7 alluvial,black,deep loam/clay with few rocks, wonderful creek bottom!
425
bike chicken fungi trees urban woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I use a sickle for places folks would use a string trimmer...just remember to wear a leather glove on the hand that grabs the greenery as you are cutting (if you cut that way and I am NOT recommending it ) ....if trimming up edges of things is what you mean. It is a bending over position though and not as ergonomic as using a scythe.
As David says, a scythe would not be easy to make especially as a first try. We see old sickles a lot at yard sales here with a bit of life left in them...and they need a good sharpening and maybe a new handle....and less often old scythe blades but then you would be making the curved snath/handle.
 
Posts: 2413
46
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
However I'm up for making one but would need instruction and any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all of you for helping me be more self sufficient!


Hi Scott,

The reason they cost so much, and they mostly still come from Eastern Europe, is that this is a very special forging method. You do not grind sharpen traditional scythes and sickles but "cold draw" and "work harden" by peening the metal (an art in itself) so making them is going to mean finding a Smith artisan that can teach you about "spine tempering" and rendering "drawable steel" in a blade...very rare today and I can only teach the peening part and know the basics of the Smiths job. I could do it at a very slow rate, and only at the apprentice speed and level.

Spend the money, buy the best, and take care of the tool properly...it it will last a lifetime (maybe two.)

Regards,

j
 
Scott Stiller
Posts: 295
Location: North Carolina zone 7
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Maybe my terminology is wrong about this tool. What I need is the kind with the long handle and blade at the bottom. Something you would use to take grain down at ground level without bending over. Thanks for the replies.
 
Scott Stiller
Posts: 295
Location: North Carolina zone 7
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks Jay. I had no idea the process of making them would be so extensive.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
46
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks Jay. I had no idea the process of making them would be so extensive.


You are most welcome Scott...my pleasure and glad to see you working the ground and wanting to keep the "traditional" skills alive.

Maybe my terminology is wrong about this tool. What I need is the kind with the long handle and blade at the bottom. Something you would use to take grain down at ground level without bending over. Thanks for the replies.


I think your "terminology is o.k. just not complete (yet.) Whether we are speaking of scythe or sickle both come in "grind sharpen type" (usually less expensive and not as well made found here in North America but usually made in China-though some really good "grind blade" sickles do come out of Japan.) The others, are the often expensive (not really considering the tool) that are "peened or work sharpened and hardened" and only "honed" lightly between their peening.

Regards,

j
 
Posts: 555
Location: Mid-Michigan
28
bee books duck food preservation forest garden hunting solar trees
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If you want to learn to make scythes, then certainly jump on into it. Spend forty hours on your first one, and successively less time on future ones, and your fifth scythe will probably be pretty usable.


But if you just want to HAVE a scythe, then go spend forty hours at fleas markets and junk stores, and then in your workshop cleaning up and sharpening the best scythe you found.

That's what I did, and I DO some bladesmithing.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
46
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Mike C.,

Have you found a real "peenable" European scythe at "fleas markets and junk stores," or are these the lesser (and way too heavy) forged North American "ditching" scythes?

Also, being a Bladesmith, do you know of anyone hear in the States or Canada that are making real "field" or "traditional" scythes?

Regards,

j
 
Scott Stiller
Posts: 295
Location: North Carolina zone 7
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you folks for all the good comments. My Dad has one that was his great great grandad's but won't let me borrow it. I have no desire to mess up a family heirloom but I am interested in how it's made and put together.
Jay, you spoke of traditional skills. I have a real passion for working my farm with hand tools, it is my solace. I'm turning fifteen wooded acres into an organic, non-GMO, permaculture paradise. Over the past twenty years of being a respiratory therapist I've developed an intolerance for noise.The constant drone of beeps, alarms, and voices are maddening. When I work the ground with only hand tools my land and soul are restored. I've developed feeling that farming in this manner will cure most ailments. Thanks again
 
Posts: 562
Location: northwest Missouri, USA
36
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Scott, they are always found on Craigslist and if you're diligent, you can find them at farm auctions and garage sales. You'll likely find an American style scythe, which is good but different than a European scythe. I've found two already and will be restoring one. I bought it for $15. Can't make it that cheaply.

 
Posts: 1433
Location: Central New Jersey
40
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Definitely recommend buying, new or used, over making from scratch.
American pattern scythe are different from the Austria style, but different does not equal better or worse.

Getting the swath (handle) right is an art on its own, which would be a big piece of why I went ahead and bought a whole rig new. Once familiar with the tool, it is easier to diy elements like the snath, or a grain cradle if you want to harvest wheat or rye.

A good scythe is a great tool and can last a very long time.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
46
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello Folks,

In honor of Scott's request of going what seems like pretty extreme traditional/natural (more power to you Scott-I was raised that way!) this post is gong to come across a bit...well perhaps biased to some readers (apologies.)

Scott, having learned to do everything from deliver baby's (name the species) to make my own cloths from scratch, I can really understand your need and want to do things the way you have described...including making a "real" scythe. I no longer have the tools to make them (maybe someday again) but you should study and at least know how. That was my goal at a younger age than you (thanks to elders around me) and by the time I was 25 there wasn't to many "homestead" things I could not do. I went through the "Fox Fire" type books and just started checking of the skills (not to mention keeping up with a Grandmother that could or knew who could, do just about anything. Now, as a teacher/mentor of traditional skill sets and still working with indigenous folks around the globe, including our many Amish (I think of them as wondering indigenous as they try really hard to bridge both worlds) I will always stop (if I can) to give someone like you as much support and info as I can.

Scythe and Sickles

Now, I am going to be a little blunter with this post...don't waste your time even trying to make a "forge scythe" of any make (like you find at flea markets and the like) as it is not worth the effort. Sorry to those that think so... Using a "real" tool compared to one of the "grinders" is the difference between using a power tool and a scythe. I have a student/friend that has mastered this and often will mow grass for me and neighbors...often as quick as some lawn care folks with power tools. Traditional tools for harvesting and grass are not only fast...they are really fast, when you get the hang of them.

Now if you don't have this info below...well...now you do and you should read all of it and come back and I will do the best I can to answer as much as I am able.

http://varcarka.com/proizvodi-kose.html

http://legrej.dk/

http://scythesupply.com/blades.htm

http://onescytherevolution.com/index.html

http://scytheconnected.blogspot.com/

http://scytheworks.ca/blades.html

http://www.themaruggcompany.com/

http://legrej.dk/

http://kosimesnadno.cz/zen-cart/index.php?language=en

http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=10198&cat=2,2160,40710

http://non-electric.lehmans.com/search#w=scythe
 
Mike Cantrell
Posts: 555
Location: Mid-Michigan
28
bee books duck food preservation forest garden hunting solar trees
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jay C. White Cloud wrote:Hi Mike C.,

Have you found a real "peenable" European scythe at "fleas markets and junk stores," or are these the lesser (and way too heavy) forged North American "ditching" scythes?

Also, being a Bladesmith, do you know of anyone hear in the States or Canada that are making real "field" or "traditional" scythes?

Regards,

j


Just American styles, so far.

I don't know of anybody making them, but then again, I haven't looked diligently (a quick googling yields lots of play/decorative weapons). My guess would be that if you ordered a handmade one, you'd be in the ballpark of $300-$400 or so for the blade, and that's going to be a pretty limited market!
(Then again, I've seen smaller and stranger niches provide someone with a living.)

 
Scott Stiller
Posts: 295
Location: North Carolina zone 7
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you Jay! I look forward to reading all the links you sent. Btw I will be attempting to chronicle the transformation of the land here through pictures. After wrangling with the local power company I've gotten permission to terrace a severely sloped right of way into permanent perineal beds. The right of way is two hundred foot and it's slow going given my distaste for power tools. So far I've gotten a hugel/swale on contour followed by two terraces. It's going to be incredible and productive. Thanks again to all of my friends here.
 
Scott Stiller
Posts: 295
Location: North Carolina zone 7
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Questions answered, but now I have more. Is there a correct way to to determine the length of the snath? I believe the scythe supply ditch blade would be the my first choice. I'll continue to check the links. I certainly appreciate all the help.
 
David Livingston
master steward
Posts: 3922
Location: Anjou ,France
204
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
When I bought mine they used my height as guide

David
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
46
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Scott, et.al.,

Fitting a snath to you depends on several factors from height, to arm length and "swing gate." You will read much about it in the literature I provided and if you can find gatherings around you (there are scythe clubs and groups!) you will see even more. As a snath maker, I am rather particular about there design, and make up. I want to see the blades with the person that is going to use them, so I may cut the custom hardwood wedges that control the blade pitch in the snath head to meet the arch of the swing so that it has "optimum geometry" in the "critical cut angle or zone" for efficiency. You get a 1200 mm (or greater) harvest blade, combined with a good sickel, and ditching blade, in concert with groomed mowing/maintenance areas, ditching and harvest areas...and learn them well, the job of cutting becomes not only a pleasurable work out but very fast. As said before, I know a number of folks that have no issue keeping up with machines (or faster) in "familiar and understood ground."

Regards,

j
 
Posts: 213
9
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
THIS may prove of use for you if you decide to go with an American pattern scythe. They're not the awful clumsy beasts that people often make them out to be--you just use them a bit differently. Also, you can often shave American snaths down a bit. Only the nicer examples are of properly slim dimensions as-is in my experience. Yes, even light examples are heavier than their continental European counterparts, but the manner of use actually uses the weight to advantage, rather than detriment.

For fitting the nib (grip) spacing, the method I like to use these days is to stand fully erect and the top nib should just barely be able to fit under your armpit without you having to stand on tiptoe. The lower nib should then be one cubit (the span from elbow to outstretched fingertip) down from that. The lower nib should be angled slightly downward, forward facing, at about the 8-9 o'clock position and the upper nib slightly higher at about the 9-10 o'clock position.

Make sure the edge is SHARP. When I get done grinding and honing an American blade the edge will shave hair, often without touching the skin.
 
Scott Stiller
Posts: 295
Location: North Carolina zone 7
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Very nice advice Ben. I haven't given up the search by a long shot. Eventually I'll find the right size and style for me.
 
Benjamin Bouchard
Posts: 213
9
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You're very welcome! If you do end up with an American scythe, always feel free to drop me a line. For reference, the grindstone I use for restoring the bevels on all of my blades is the Grizzly G1036 "Viking" wet grinder. Very affordable as far as wet grinders go at around $200 and just about the perfect design since it gives you great clearance for doing long blades. It would be an expensive tool if you were only using it on scythes, but a wet grinder has tons of uses around a homestead, to such an extent that some considered it possible to judge how well maintained a whole farm was by how well maintained the grinding stone was. I've found mine invaluable for all manner of tools and projects.
 
Posts: 42
Location: Sequim, WA USA - zone 8b
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thought I might jump in on this conversation. I have 3 scythe blades for different purposes, all purchased from Alexander Vido at http://Scytheworks.com (or scytheworks.ca). We live just across the water from Victoria, BC, Canada, and he came over and gave a group of us a workshop. It was excellent - and really gave me a jump start on how to choose, sharpen, and use a scythe effectively. The European blades are of top-notch quality: a long blade for general field work with a relatively long (but adjustable) snath that better suits my (taller) husband; a smaller blade that is ideal for getting around shrubs, trees, and pathways in our backyard food forest, durable enough to cut the field, fine enough to cut a blade of grass (my favorite); and a short stocky blade that is ideal for cutting sapplings and brambles (MUCH easier than using a weed trimmer!). We made a snath for the medium-sized blade from a eucalyptus tree that didn't make it through one of our winters - the wood is straight, strong, and light. I made a handle from the prunings of a 100+ yr old cherry tree that might be seeing its last season. I agree, there is a deep satisfaction in making your own tools. Growing the wood, selecting what to use, and making the snath customized just for me gave me a connection to this tool that I can't quite explain. It is like the trees continue to live and serve me well through my hands. I can appreciate the workmanship that went into the blades, recognizing it is not a skill I am likely to gain in this lifetime. I love my scythe; it is my favorite tool. I can never grow enough mulch, but at least this helps me collect what I can. I might add that I am a 5' tall female, about 100 lbs - and over 60 - so it truly is more about finesse and getting into the zen than about brute strength. I agree with Jay: save up to buy the best blade you can afford; a good tool that lasts a lifetime is worth the investment. Also, make sure you get the blade you need for the job so you aren't abusing it or getting too frustrated; and if you can, take a class from or talk with others who can help you with techniques. There are lots of videos out there, but also a lot of misinformation. And I Highly recommend Scythe Works! Hope this helps!
 
Benjamin Bouchard
Posts: 213
9
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Blythe Barbo wrote:[...]it truly is more about finesse and getting into the zen than about brute strength.


Truth! Regardless of specific pattern, the scythe is a tool reliant on finesse, and one of the first and most important lessons for any scythe user to learn is that it's not a machete on a stick.
 
Peter Ellis
Posts: 1433
Location: Central New Jersey
40
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Ben. Wondered when you would chime in on this thread.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
46
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Ben,

I guess we both have to own that our views maybe a bit subjective.

Nevertheless, as a facilitator to the use of traditional tools (scythes and sickles being some of them) and not the "vendor" of same, I focus on its historical application, and ease of use.

Perhaps the "weighty" North American versions are not monsters (don't think I personally called them that...sorry if I did) but they do not have the history, finesse or edge taking and holding capabilities of the traditional models. These later points are not subjective, but based on 40 years of on and off use, centuries of description in application, and testimony of countless folks that have hours behind both types. I have spoken to so many "road men" (our roadways had been mowed by scythe for a long time,) that would "give a finger" to have a...."sleek European model over the stone busters we normally swing" (that was just one quote for several) that I have to stress to readers, talk to real long term users before you make a choice in what to purchase.

Thank you Blythe, I have seen many small folks, including children, wheeled blades over a meter in length with speed, grace and endurance, which simply would not be possible for there size using an American Snath and blade system.

Regards,

j
 
Benjamin Bouchard
Posts: 213
9
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jay C. White Cloud wrote:Hi Ben,

I guess we both have to own that our views maybe a bit subjective. :

Nevertheless, as a facilitator to the use of traditional tools (scythes and sickles being some of them) and not the "vendor" of same, I focus on its historical application, and ease of use.

Perhaps the "weighty" North American versions are not monsters (don't think I personally called them that...sorry if I did) but they do not have the history, finesse or edge taking and holding capabilities of the traditional models. These later points are not subjective, but based on 40 years of on and off use, centuries of description in application, and testimony of countless folks that have hours behind both types. I have spoken to so many "road men" (our roadways had been mowed by scythe for a long time,) that would "give a finger" to have a...."sleek European model over the stone busters we normally swing" (that was just one quote for several) that I have to stress to readers, talk to real long term users before you make a choice in what to purchase.

Thank you Blythe, I have seen many small folks, including children, wheeled blades over a meter in length with speed, grace and endurance, which simply would not be possible for there size using an American Snath and blade system.

Regards,

j


They do have the history. They do have the finesse. And they very often have (providing a quality blade) SUPERIOR edge holding capabilities. I can even go over the science of that bit if you'd like. In fact, continental blades were well known in North America and could be found in most major hardware catalogs. Hybrid blades also exist with American tangs but continental style blades. The Sta-Tite and Derby & Ball snath companies both made snaths intended for use with continental blades. However, in spite of this, they never really caught on here. I personally feel that there is a reason why the American pattern is the sort found hanging in just about every old barn. The American farmer was quick to adopt technology and methods they considered superior.

And it's very possible to have an American scythe that IS too heavy. Note that I did not say that weight should be disregarded--merely that the style is inherently a heavier one but not necessarily a more tiring one if well tuned and used properly. I have only encountered a few vintage snaths that I didn't consider in need of significant reduction, and those that were of appropriate dimension were all higher end models. Historically, snath factory workers were paid by the piece. If you shave a little less off you spend less time per unit, and can turn out more units in a day. The end user, fortunately, can shave the snath down further as they see fit. Even on grass snaths of fairly good dimension I often end up removing 4oz or more of wood from them before I consider them "good".

Chances are if those fellows shaved their snaths down, properly adjusted the nibs, pitched their tangs, kept their edges hollow and keen, AND used proper technique they would find themselves with much less complaint. I have yet to speak to someone who knows how to use an American scythe properly that holds complaint with it, and I know several individuals with a great degree of experience with both styles that prefer the American. Just because I like the American type best doesn't mean that I don't also think that the continental European scythe is an excellent tool. Likewise remember that just because a fellow has done something a certain way for a great length of time does not mean they are doing it properly. Practice makes permanent--only perfect practice makes perfect.
 
Jay C. White Cloud
Posts: 2413
46
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
They do have the history. They do have the finesse. And they very often have (providing a quality blade) SUPERIOR edge holding capabilities.


I would suggest that of the three observations, finesse is probably subjective, in that if a 200 lb fellow with decades behind one is swinging it, he will not be much aware of the mass, heft and power needed to operate the tool during the long days of harvesting grain or grass, where as a small child or woman performing this work will be aware in the first 20 minutes and not be able to swing such a tool for a full 8 hour day, let alone a harvest season, which they can do with the much lighter and swifter continental assemblies.

If you have photos or documentation of woman and children doing this kind of work with the heavier English designs, please share it, as it is all over the different books, clubs, and internet sites on this subject. I have worked with the Amish most of my life, and these heavier "English" scythes are not the tool they prefered if given the choice, nor what women and children could use effectively for long periods of time. I have seen teen girls with the European models work rings around men swinging English scythes...I have never seen them do this when swinging the heavier bladed types. I would further suggest that the English normative culture of "mens work," and the, "marginalization of women in agriculture."

I can even go over the science of that bit if you'd like... In fact, continental blades were well known in North America and could be found in most major hardware catalogs...However, in spite of this, they never really caught on here...I personally feel that there is a reason why the American pattern is the sort found hanging in just about every old barn. The American farmer was quick to adopt technology and methods they considered superior.


I would have to really challenge that opinion on several fronts, including the "scientific." One the "American" scythe is little different from the "English" scythe, and is steeped deeply in a regional normative culture, politics of "scythe unions," and a very "male," cultural opinion as much as actual technology. There has been some argument over the centuries the English scythes held an equalling durable edge (I will grant you that on the models with laminated forged blades, but not forged blades in general) and was wielded mostly by men harvesting the "heavier" and thicker Celtic varieties of grass. So if you combine a Male operator, swinging a heavier blade into a heavy grass, one could argue subjectively (as has been done for some time now) that this will work better. It does not seem to pan out in the competitions or in the collective opinion of scythe groups, clubs and cultures, and the Continental blade in global use has held sway over the heavy blades in the last 400 years of hand harvesting.

I will go further and state that over the decades I have asked many Elder Amish, Mennonite, River Baptist, etc., and they all gave the same similar answer: "We couldn't always get them, and Smiths in this country do not have the knowledge in how to forge and temper them (continental blades) to have the lighter weight, and peenable steel. "

Hand forge scythes, I would more than agree, are the oldest forms in history. The first scythes and sickles had all been the heavier, grind sharpened forms of Falx foenaria most likely originated in the Scythian culture around 500 BCE, and of course the heavier forged form. As of 500 years ago this did change.

And it's very possible to have an American scythe that IS too heavy. Note that I did not say that weight should be disregarded--merely that the style is inherently a heavier one but not necessarily a more tiring one if well tuned and used properly.


I will grant you (again) that the argument behind the English designs are based on its mass (on average 40 to 50% heavier.) Yet challenge (documented and supported by the majority that do these comparisons) that this is not proven, nor evident in there side beside use. The kinetic energy is higher, that I agree on, yet at the end of a day's labor you have wielded twice as much mass.

I have yet to speak to someone who knows how to use an American scythe properly that holds complaint with it, and I know several individuals with a great degree of experience with both styles that prefer the American...


I will take you at your word in this, but have never experienced that in any of my travels. Quite the contrary, anyone that I know that has any substantial skill or knowledge of both assemblies and time behind them give highest praise to the Continental forms, with the exception of "bush hogging," and even then would rather use continental short blade "bush scythe" working in concert with a scicle, billhook, faghook, Kama, or machete.

Likewise remember that just because a fellow has done something a certain way for a great length of time does not mean they are doing it properly.


I could not agree more, as almost every time I see someone using a drawknife they are using it upside down (bevel facing up) and not the primary employment of the tool with the bevel down. Which present a case that just because many use the heavy model, or only had them does not make their use proper, germain, or the best choice.

for the readers of this thread, I offer this small history, as it is one of the best and most concise I have read.
 
Benjamin Bouchard
Posts: 213
9
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Contrary to the UK industry, I have yet to see a single reference to American scythe unions. The very closest thing I've seen even vaguely resembling it was that there was, at one time, a trade association of snath manufacturers, but that is a very different thing entirely.

I've written extensively on most of these points and am a VERY busy fellow, so while I'll be happy to address whichever questions you may pose of me I think you would perhaps be best prepped for the debate by reading this response I made to Peter Vido regarding many similar questions or challenges. Please read it at your leisure, after which I'll be happy to tackle whatever challenges you may bring to the table.

 
To do a great right, do a little wrong - shakepeare. twisted little ad:
Video of all the PDC and ATC (~177 hours) - HD instant view
https://permies.com/wiki/65386/paul-wheaton/digital-market/Video-PDC-ATC-hours-HD
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!