Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Hm. That's annoying.
Voltage drop -- how long is the wire run to the pump? What gauge wire is being used?
Rico Loma wrote:Your location please? Do you have hard freezing of lake for months at a time?
I apologize for asking now, but I'm curious, did you originally consider the simplicity of a DC pump?
Life's too short, eat dessert first! [Source of quote unknown]
You have to be warped to weave [ditto!]
Rico Loma wrote:Many others here with superior electrical knowledge......well, could also be true on a preteen Taylor Swift website.....but you could try a new switch. I see them for 40 usd at Lowes, less at the feed store and discount center nearby. Last year I had to replace mine (well pump) after some intense days of lightning storms. It looked fine but often malfunctioned. You have a new pump but how old is your switch?
And it may be a hassle, but please look at the pump itself. Being low enough to withstand freezing puts it in more contact with slime, goo, algae, and other wonderful things. Then you can decide if the screen on the pump is adequate for the task.
Douglas Alpenstock wrote:(Pardon my disjointed post. Editing on a phone touchscreen is enough to drive one to murther.)
I'm looking at this from a whole system perspective -- what could be causing the high current draw near the end of the pumping cycle? Some thoughts:
-- Offhand I would guess the wire size is adequate for the length of the run. But at 115v there would be a voltage drop. An intermittent short is possible due to chafing or vibration.
--If the base pressure in the pressure tank is too low (the ~30 psi air cushion acts as a spring) the pump is basically pushing hard against a brick wall before the pressure switch shuts it off.
--Biofouling in the pump itself could partially reduce water flow. That flow provides some of the cooling for the pump motor. If the motor windings are running a lot hotter than they are supposed to, the resistance increases.
Possible solutions:
-- First, the simplest option: adjust the pressure switch to operate in a 40 - 55 psi range, which is not unreasonable for a country water system.
-- Empty the pressure tank. Check and adjust the base pressure to ensure a proper air cushion.
-- Right after the breaker kicks off, use a multimeter to test the resistance of the pump circuit. Zero resistance indicates a short circuit somewhere.
-- If possible, backflow the pump to try to clear out any bio-fouling. There will be a check valve somewhere in the system that would need to be bypassed, and depending on its location this could be a challenge.
Jon Bee wrote:EDIT: I just backed the pressure switch down and the pressure went from 20 PSI to 40 PSI. The breaker still trips every time it reaches 40 PSI. It seems like no matter what the range is set at, the pump will run fine for 10-20 seconds, then get to top of range and the breaker trips. Maybe I should replace the pressure switch?
Jon Bee wrote:I don't know how to do this ---> "Empty the pressure tank. Check and adjust the base pressure to ensure a proper air cushion."
What should the base pressure of the pressure tank be?
When I started pump for the first time this year, the water that came out of the pressure tank was full of sediment, very thick. So emptying it and flushing is a good idea. If I knew how. Will Google it.
Jon Bee wrote:
"Biofouling in the pump itself could partially reduce water flow. " I was hoping this was the main issue since the pump works for about 20 seconds getting pressure up to about 58 PSI before tripping. So maybe just so gunked up it is labouring, drawing more current so finally trips. But don't have help today so may not be able to get pump out of lake yet. And it is still very cold in the lake.
Douglas Alpenstock wrote:
Jon Bee wrote:EDIT: I just backed the pressure switch down and the pressure went from 20 PSI to 40 PSI. The breaker still trips every time it reaches 40 PSI. It seems like no matter what the range is set at, the pump will run fine for 10-20 seconds, then get to top of range and the breaker trips. Maybe I should replace the pressure switch?
Actually that's a useful troubleshooting step. I think it eliminates the pressure switch as the source of the problem.
I agree. I found a brand new pressure switch in my shed so yesterday I went to change it but my neighbor came by and I ran out of time and had to head back to city. Will change it on next trip out.
My chat with the nieghbor was very informative. He agrees with you Douglas that I should pull the pump out of the lake, inspect it for bad connections and give it a good clean. He has been on the lake for 15 years and pulls and cleans his every year. He also said he put his in a rubermaid tub filled with rocks sitting on the bottom so that it doesn't pull the guck and silt right off the bottom. Since I have only had this cabin for 1.5 seasons, I have not pulled the pump ever. That will be top of the list on my next trip out tomorrow. My nieghbor also mentioned the lake is still so cold that he would not go in yet.
Before my nieghbor arrived I had disconnected the two wires (L1 , L2) on the pressure switch to disconnect the pump. I then turned the power back on and the breaker never tripped. So this proves all of my wiring and breaker and Franklin box (and pressure switch too?) are not the cause of the breaker trips. I think that isolates the issue as being either the wires running in the conduit out to the pump or the pump itself.
With those wires disconnected, I measured 2.3 ohms. I think this is a normal reading for a pump meaning the motor windings are electrically connected, the cable is not broken, and there is not a dead short. But it doesn't mean the pump isn't jammed up or there isn't a connection issue at the pump. So definitely need to pull the pump.
Now we know that the current draw of the pump hits a critical high point in 10-20 seconds, no matter what. That tells us the pump is working extra hard, either due to an inadequate air cushion in the pressure tank or clogging at the pump.
Jon Bee wrote:I don't know how to do this ---> "Empty the pressure tank. Check and adjust the base pressure to ensure a proper air cushion."
What should the base pressure of the pressure tank be?
When I started pump for the first time this year, the water that came out of the pressure tank was full of sediment, very thick. So emptying it and flushing is a good idea. If I knew how. Will Google it.
At this stage, all that needs to be done is to open a low tap in your water system and take of all pressure in the tank.
If it's a modern tank, there will be an automotive-style valve stem sticking out the top of the tank. It looks just like the valve stem on a tire, and works the same way. A modern tank has an air bladder at the top that acts like a spring and should have roughly 30 psi in it (ideally it's about 2 psi below the cut-in pressure of the pressure switch). Use an automotive tire gauge to see how much pressure is in the air bladder.
Add or remove air pressure as needed, based on the pressure switch setting. Then power up the well pump and see what happens.
Yes I found that valve stem on the tank yesterday. The tank flush is now also on my to do list on next trip.
Jon Bee wrote:
"Biofouling in the pump itself could partially reduce water flow. " I was hoping this was the main issue since the pump works for about 20 seconds getting pressure up to about 58 PSI before tripping. So maybe just so gunked up it is labouring, drawing more current so finally trips. But don't have help today so may not be able to get pump out of lake yet. And it is still very cold in the lake.
This is looking like the most likely culprit. If the pressure tank's air bladder has roughly the right pressure and the breaker still trips, I think pulling up and cleaning the pump is next on the list.
Ray Schmidt wrote:The short run time makes finding a voltage drop across a component difficult.
Reviewing your photos. I see a “ light switch” in a 2 x 4 J box. if that is being used as a service disconnect,, I would most definitely check it.
Difficult to tell from the photo, but it does not look like the proper motor rated switch that should be in that position; if it is the service disconnect.
While a standard light switch is rated for 15 apps that is not meant to be for an inductive load like your motor.
The correct switch has heavier contacts and a stronger snap mechanism to open and close the contacts faster.
The proper type switch will list its horsepower rating on it.
I would also be interested in seeing a photo of what is inside the gray box with the model serial tag on it.
Wile, I don’t see how it’s possible with the two wire set up like you, indicated, I would be looking for a start and possibly a run capacitor for a fractional horse 120 V single phase motor.
if there are capacitors in that box, they need to be checked.
Shut off, and there’s no power, disconnect one side of capacitor, and hopefully you have a meter with a micro function, or you can check actual rated printed on the capacitor. Barring that you could use your multimeter set to Holmes and after discharging of capacitor, put one on either side, and your arms will slowly rise as you charge up the capacitor from your meter.
Well, this doesn’t tell you the micro repair it does show you the capacitor is at least partially functional?
if there is a start capacitor there would be some kind of relay to take it out of the circuit after the motor starts there’s no easy way for me to describe how to check that.
As much as I hate troubleshooting my parts replacement that’s probably your best option if there are components in that box.
Luc Drouin wrote:Change the breaker. 15A is marginal for inrush surges. The voltage drop from ~119.6 idle to ~ 111 V under load makes it worse. Lower voltage forces the motor to draw more current. Lastly, the smoking gun could be biofouling. You need to look into this. Maybe finding a way to use compressed air to force exactly the right concentration and volume from a tank holding pool cleaning algecide to only fill the volute of your system would be better then dredging the entire system for a manual cleanup. Let it sit in there until the algecide does its work, then force clean water out the same way
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