tall 350 gallon water catchment support ideas?

We were given this 350 gallon tank.
The more we study it though it seems like it will need a major structure to support it upright when full of water?  Tipping over is a scary thought.

In my photo it's on it's side...to use, it needs to be standing upright with the opening at the top.
We've thought at the minimum it needs four wooden posts set and a firm level base?
...and it needs to be a reasonable distance from the house gutter pipe.
https://talcofire.com/residential-systems/home-hydrant/

Has anyone used one of these for water storage?

Any ideas for support?

The plastic looks like it needs supporting on the whole area, not just 4 points.
How about preparing an area with compacted sand and placing it there?

thanks Sebastian,
The plastic is quite thick...over a quarter inch and even thicker in places.  Much more substantial than our cube that does need all round support.

Is sand better than gravel for a base and I wonder how deep?

Sand was just the first thing that came to my mind to build a level base for something fragile. A level gravel base without sharp peaks could work too.

My primary concern would be uneven settling of the ground. I don't know how deep a proper foundation needs to be for your soil.
Here, a few cm would be enough if it is elevated a bit and water doesn't pool around it, for some soils in wet climates I would probably first ram a few wooden posts into the earth and then concrete tiles on top of them, because they are more of a sponge than a solid.

If you get any amount of sunlight and UV radiation, consider covering it somehow, or it will get brittle over time.

I would suggest not overthinking/engineering this. Level the ground where you want it to be, sand the base for extra support if you wish, then use an oak pallet as a platform. Should be plenty of them in your neck of the woods. There is nothing fragile about this unit whatsoever, self supporting.
Any failure will not be even remotely catastrophic, no tumbling tank. If it starts to lean, simply drain it, relevel the ground.
I have two IBCs side by side to store lakewater,stacked on three pallets each to get the drain valve up where I can make use of them. They are leaning a bit after five years because they are right under the eaves, catching lots of water/runoff, so the ground has a bit of saturation at times, especially after winter.
They are due for a proper footing as I intend to close them in, extend their useful season.

here's a better photo showing proportions
It's 6'6" tall with a foot print of 30"x 50".

What we see as a possible problem is that any shift of the soil underneath could cause it to topple rather than just sit crooked like a cube might.  It wouldn't be safe free standing.

We have a cube and it's placed on a gravel pad with paving blocks under the tote and seems pretty stable.

This one is more of a challenge.

In the second picture we see a wide rounded groove running up the entire length of the thing. What if you put the tank so that a tree or similar occupies this groove, and then pull ropes/straps around the tank and tree, running through the shallower perpendicular grooves? Sorry, don't know if that makes any sense at all...

Eino Kenttä wrote:In the second picture we see a wide rounded groove running up the entire length of the thing. What if you put the tank so that a tree or similar occupies this groove, and then pull ropes/straps around the tank and tree, running through the shallower perpendicular grooves? Sorry, don't know if that makes any sense at all...

I can picture that!
I don't think there's the right sized tree at the right distance from our roof where a gutter pipe could reach...might have to look tomorrow.

It's really an odd shape and intended to be set up in a basement as a fire hydrant.  The deep grooves were to hold a pump and other equipment for putting out a fire.

I couldn't find any info at the site on how it was secured.

yay free tanks!  that's like $350 gift vs. buying it new



I bought the 1st one of these at Tractor Supply ... so happy to get free ones ever since.   there's no limit to how many I can use in my areas

definitely the ground will settle, its a lot of weight.

I agree with above tho, just plan to empty and re-level as needed.   Fancy stuff will just wear out anyway and it will be more expensive to re-level.   I use wood chips to level stuff .... digging below the sod and backfilling with sand works even better

Judith Browning wrote:here's a better photo showing proportions
It's 6'6" tall with a foot print of 30"x 50"....

Three times (almost) as tall as it is wide. Little different.
My grandmother lived in Northridge near the epicenter of the 1971 Sylmar earthquake at that time. We visited shortly after, I remember the destruction.
She tied her grandfather clock to the wall with some bright, thick yarn Opa Holger had screwed into the wood walls of their home, likewise her cupboard doors and dishrails.
Tie a metal strap around the container, bolt it to  the house.
You have about 3000lbs of water/container. Sandy soil has a bearing of at least 2000lbs/sq.ft., provided it is relatively undisturbed and not saturated. Pallets are about 4x4ft. So, 3000lbs. distributed (somewhat unequally) over 16 sq.ft. is about 180lbs./sq.ft.
Scrape ground minimally, enough to level it, double the wood on the top of a pallet to spread the load, and be on your way.

Beast of a container, btw, I'm envious,

I am not sure using a pallet is a good idea, as that concentrates the load on just a few small points where it touches the ground. Placing the container directly on soil/gravel/sand spreads the load evenly.
If you find a dry spot that not loose and fill the container only half way initially and observe if it stays level and adjust the ground if it does settle unevenly, it should eventually stop moving. But depending on your luck that might take a few iterations. If you have a good pump and emptying and filling is not a problem, that might not be an issue.

I was also considering to dig a 30" deep hole to place it in, but that is a lot of digging and then gravity will not empty it fully.

Here's an excerpt from the manual, it does not explicitly mention a need for securing other than placing on a solid and level surface. Elsewhere they mention to be certain that any means of securing does not deform the tank as the stress over time will cause leaks or failure. I think replacing the soil with a compacted base of crushed stone, with a layer of compacted sand or stone dust on top would be good.

I would refrain from "pallets", as most won't handle that amount of weight, the boards are generally of low-quality, and thin. The tank will likely have a concentrated load balancing on the center stringer of the pallet, and the decking boards will act like a springy see-saw which will make it less stable (especially if the pallet isn't perfectly sized for the tank). Over time, pallets out in the weather and on the ground... they just get worse.

1.5 Units shall be installed in a location that protects them from direct sunlight, inclement
weather in general, and freezing temperatures in particular. Installation in a secured room is
strongly recommended to prevent vandalism or tampering with control settings. Not following the
guidelines above may cause the unit to malfunction or fail prematurely.
1.5.1 Home Hydrant systems are not designed for unprotected
outdoor installation or storage.
1.6 It is imperative that the surface the Home Hydrant is installed on is capable of supporting the
weight of the unit when full of water, and is level and solid in nature. Do not install the unit on gravel,
dirt, grass, or other substrates which may shift or contain materials which may puncture the tank.
1.6.1 Fresh water weighs approximately 8.34 pounds per gallon. Use caution when
deciding where to place a Home Hydrant. Never attempt to move a unit that is full of
water.

The environmental concerns, including sunlight exposure is another issue altogether. Protection from freezing, if you intend this tank for irrigation, could be as simple as draining it out and diverting the downspout until Spring. Protection from sunlight, will preserve the tank and prevent/reduce algae growth, a solid wall/roof/fence/screen or an opaque paint would work best.

As far as tipping over is concerned, the solid base is the most important. The most likely tipping scenario will be when it is empty, with gusty winds, and a rope or strap secured to the building will be enough. The next most likely scenario, would be erosion of the base in a severe rainstorm, if the gutter system and/or the tank overflow weren't capable of redirecting excess water safely away.

Sweet container. It looks to me like it’s meant to be strapped to something. If you have a solid structure to catch water for it off of, I’d put it on a level spot and strap it to solid points in a solid building, then cover for UV. Depending on the situation, an insulating layer under hardware cloth or chicken wire and then cob might work well.

If that were my tank I would use 2 x 4s to build a cage around the tank. Maybe three in the front and three in the back anchored in concrete the with  horizontal 2 x 4s for braces on all sides.

Situating the tank on a bed of sand might also help.

I'd not over think it. 3 x 5 concrete pad is 8-10 bags, build it level and square, gravity works, full 1 1/2 tons or there abouts, nothing to get overly agitated about. Looks like the faucet/draw point is in one of those slots up the side, so if the other side is blank park a 4x4 anchored to the slab in it, couple ratchet straps high and low, walk away. Those slots are molded in for the structural integrity of the tank, the company parks the whole hydrant works in it for unitizing purposes.  just as an aside after the fire vids on the tube, I wouldn't pin my hopes on any 350 gal stop to fire

 I wouldn't pin my hopes on any 350 gal stop to fire  

I wasn't clear about that was I?
We are looking at it for rain water storage for watering gardens not fire fighting.

I do have a story though...
A couple years ago our neighbor was burning a stump unattended (again) and set the wall of his house on fire.
The only water he had was rain water collected in several cubes all around his house...maybe 8-10?
Another neighbor was trying to help, gravity flow, slow bucket by slow bucket full.
Fortunately we were able to hook up our 150' of hose to our out door faucet (municipal water) and it reached and slowed down the fire.
Even after the fire trucks got there they couldn't start hosing it down until the electric company came and turned off the power (volunteer dept.)so my guy kept  the fire slowed down until the fire dept  took over.

I've wondered if there are portable pumps for those totes though that could be quickly moved from cube to cube for fires?

We have a submersible electric pump that has a 1" hose attached and it gets dropped in the tank and then spit out a huge amount of water, however the pressure is pretty low.
For firefighting I think you would want more pressure. Maybe something like this one.

Look into government surplus auction sites for a pump.  I have a dozen of the 220 gal tanks in cages you refer to, for irri/fertigation with drip lines, and use 4 gas powered cage enclosed 125 gal centrifugal 2" pumps from Uncle.  They are old, like a piece of rope you wrap the fly extension with and pull start old. Say what you want about Uncles  buying habits and the price he pays but if its painted olive drab it runs.  The tanks are 2" outlet standard so you only have to get connection fittings once, they move water around efficiently and cheaply

The issue you have may be having the tank overflow and have anything at its base eroded away, causing the tank to fall.
Depending on the soil type you have I suggest a concrete slab 4 inches thick with a bit of mesh, about 40 x 60 inches.
Place any over flow pipe at least 2 ft from the slab.

Judith Browning wrote:

 I wouldn't pin my hopes on any 350 gal stop to fire  

I wasn't clear about that was IWe are looking at it for rain water storage for watering gardens not fire fighting..
I've wondered if there are portable pumps for those totes though that could be quickly moved from cube to cube for fires?

Since we've derailed this thread a bit.
One of the primary functions of the cubes I keep around my place is fire. Obviously seasonal only, we lose them from Nov.-Apr. when snow is on the ground.
We had a forest fire roll right up to our property in 2018. The Forest Service took a hands off approach for the first two weeks, so the work of cutting the guard in our area, which goes right along the edge of our property,  was done by the local ranchers/loggers. My bulldozer was out there, but the bulk of the work was done by much heavier equipment. D7/D8, big processors and Ponsses
Once the line was established and held, we maintained and mopped up the fire. I had to get certified as basic wildland fire fighter by Ministry of Forests, and have been out on two local fires since.
This is my firetruck and my work pack. The welder is for remote power and field repair. I have two of these cubes next to the house and two more up the hill by garage filled, three in reserve. We use them to water gardens/yard and monitor burn piles. I have a small 12V RV type pump on it's own micro grid for those purposes. 40psi/4GPM or so. The pump is separate from the house power because a battery bank/inverter seems a likely place for a fire to start. I keep 200ft. of 1 1/2in. firehose and 200 ft of garden hose, coiled close by.
The Honda pump will empty that 275gal. in <7 mins. wide open. You can flat out murder any fire you start on your own property in that time frame.
Provided of course, you are awake and monitoring your fire fun.
We use these cubes on fireline mop up with layflat 3/4in. canvas hose for ease of use and water conservation.
I have an 24V battery/inverter on it's own microgrid, powering a deep well pump I keep out in the lake that will fill these cubes or run the firehose line for about 25min. more. The Honda pump can be carried to any of the cubes on this property easily. As I said in my skid shack tool thread, my opinion is, if you live remote, you are criminally negligent if you do not have the means to fight any fire you start. Our fire department is at least an hour away if the booster and cell phone are working. RCMP, 2hrs.

I seen people use those in new homes in MD. MD now requires a fire sprinkler system to be put in place in any new homes. I usually see them place it in the corner of a basement. So I guess three sides are supported. But a basement is basically concrete. You could try a three sided wall, with the side for the nozzles sort of open. And triangle braces on the sides for extra support. Or if you have the resources, build a taught metal frame like on ibc totes, it would have to be custom built to fit this tote. Then build sort of a metal triangle brace on each side for a small support. Wood like oak may work too.

What does this mean please?

Ponsses

Kenneth Elwell wrote:Here's an excerpt from the manual, it does not explicitly mention a need for securing other than placing on a solid and level surface. Elsewhere they mention to be certain that any means of securing does not deform the tank as the stress over time will cause leaks or failure. I think replacing the soil with a compacted base of crushed stone, with a layer of compacted sand or stone dust on top would be good.

I would refrain from "pallets", as most won't handle that amount of weight, the boards are generally of low-quality, and thin. The tank will likely have a concentrated load balancing on the center stringer of the pallet, and the decking boards will act like a springy see-saw which will make it less stable (especially if the pallet isn't perfectly sized for the tank). Over time, pallets out in the weather and on the ground... they just get worse.

1.5 Units shall be installed in a location that protects them from direct sunlight, inclement
weather in general, and freezing temperatures in particular. Installation in a secured room is
strongly recommended to prevent vandalism or tampering with control settings. Not following the
guidelines above may cause the unit to malfunction or fail prematurely.
1.5.1 Home Hydrant systems are not designed for unprotected
outdoor installation or storage.
1.6 It is imperative that the surface the Home Hydrant is installed on is capable of supporting the
weight of the unit when full of water, and is level and solid in nature. Do not install the unit on gravel,
dirt, grass, or other substrates which may shift or contain materials which may puncture the tank.
1.6.1 Fresh water weighs approximately 8.34 pounds per gallon. Use caution when
deciding where to place a Home Hydrant. Never attempt to move a unit that is full of
water.

The environmental concerns, including sunlight exposure is another issue altogether. Protection from freezing, if you intend this tank for irrigation, could be as simple as draining it out and diverting the downspout until Spring. Protection from sunlight, will preserve the tank and prevent/reduce algae growth, a solid wall/roof/fence/screen or an opaque paint would work best.

As far as tipping over is concerned, the solid base is the most important. The most likely tipping scenario will be when it is empty, with gusty winds, and a rope or strap secured to the building will be enough. The next most likely scenario, would be erosion of the base in a severe rainstorm, if the gutter system and/or the tank overflow weren't capable of redirecting excess water safely away.

Kenneth, thank you for finding the instructions at the site...I guess I did not look hard enough

In our usual slow way we are looking at laying it either flat on the ground or on a long edge And then sealing the big input hole and adding another at the 'new' top.
Still using a bed of gravel and then flat pavers or blocks.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts about how to set up this tank...the complication of setting it vertical led us to consider other placement

Probably not happening before this years drought though as we are also trying to revive the old well  here that used to supply the house....hoping it can fill some gaps in the rain and water storage.  

John C Daley wrote:What does this mean please?

Ponsses

Ponsse manufactures articulated, heavy, all wheeldrive, large tired tractors specifically for soft impact off road/logging use. Used as lumber forwarders. Used here with a water tank typically, get water where it's needed.