Oak vs apple: How close?

How close to the southern drip line of a couple of large oaks can I plant a couple of apple trees.  The trees are southern red oaks about 2’ in diameter.  I will use MM111 rootstock, planning on planting 2-3 apples south of and parallel to the oaks in an east to west row.

MM111 is probably your best bet there, it handles root competition better than most. Those oak roots will extend well past the drip line though so I'd give them a head start with some good compost at planting and keep on top of watering that first summer. At least you've got the light working in your favour planting south of them.

What is "MM111"?

Anne Miller wrote:What is "MM111"?

A type of rootstock. For the different types, this thread seems to have a decent explanation:
https://www.rhs.org.uk/fruit/fruit-trees/rootstocks

I guess the farther the better.  If I planted one one the drip line I could get in two, but maybe I am getting greedy, and should be satisfied with one at 15-20’ off the drip line.

Anybody know how deep the roots go on oaks and M111 roots.

I just think possibly the M111 stayed relatively shallow while the oak has very deep roots, but maybe I just made that up.

Apples like their space and sun, and so do oaks to some degree. I’d give them at least a road’s-width apart. In which you can grow other plants, greens, small shrubs, berries, etc!

Agreed on the sun factor being important.

I planted citrus up close to my oaks because that supposedly prevents the HLB disease ravaging Florida citrus.  End result was very slow growing citrus and long overdue to fruit...which I think is lack of sun.

Oaks are surprisingly shallow roots. When we get a lot of rain here even big old oaks can be uprooted and tipped over sideways by the wind, roots and all.
Don't know about apples.

Dave Bross wrote:Agreed on the sun factor being important.  I planted citrus up close to my oaks because that supposedly prevents the HLB disease ravaging Florida citrus.  End result was very slow growing citrus and long overdue to fruit...which I think is lack of sun.

Yes, that was my first thought.  I am no expert in this area, but I'd think that the prime competition to watch out for between the OP's oaks and intended apples would be sun exposure.  Certainly on my small property I have observed that this has been my chief limiting factor: some of my plantings just didn't get enough sun.  So long as my new apple trees did get plenty sun, and so long as I had enough room around them for convenient harvest access, I'd not worry overly much about the root zones.

As someone wrote above, roots grow out very far, so to avoid root competition entilrey you'd have to really, really space your trees out.  I think when guilding plants together, you assume that a certain amount of root competition will occur and just decide to be okay with it, confident that you will get adequate growth and productivity out of the guild in the long run, if not necessarily optimum growth and productivity from each individual element in the guild.  Trees in a forest naturally grow at a far denser concentration than any good orchard planner would space them.  Doubtless, each orchard tree grows faster and fruits earlier, but the forest as a whole supports more biomass/area.

Dave Bross wrote:Oaks are surprisingly shallow roots. When we get a lot of rain here even big old oaks can be uprooted and tipped over sideways by the wind, roots and all.  Don't know about apples.

Hmmm, I read that you describe your location as "sand hills," and I suspect that the nature of your soil might have something to do with that.  Just a guess.

Hello Nick, and all.  I’m not an expert but 40 years of extreme enthusiasm with fruit trees.  Most of the apple rootstocks available were developed at fruit research stations such as East Malling, UK.  Designations such as EMLA 111 are sometimes shortened to M. 111 and are related to these research stations where they were developed.  TRECO, treco.nu online has a quick information guide as they are one of the largest rootstock suppliers.  You can see the original varieties of apples these rootstocks came from, EMLA 111 from Northern Spy/Doucin M2 in this case.  This helps in understanding rootstocks and a few attributes of each rootstock variety.  All rootstocks are designed for monoculture compaction planting, disease resistance, specific water absorption irrigation, vegetative-fruiting vigor, and shorter stature for ease and speed of picking at harvest.  I’m not a fan of any monoculture, anywhere, ever.  So as natural Apple trees can last over 100 years or longer planted on its native roots in a good location without irrigation I have chosen this model.  They can and should be pruned for lower branching and easier harvest filling in a specific vertical portion of the food forest.  I often just order scion, root it, and plan second year as it lessens orchard costs by 60-80%, and last 4 times longer.  Unpruned, these trees would grow 30’+ tall but pruning to a system keeps them under 20’, and you have to prune yearly anyway.  This is a tricky idea as its mid-low level harvest of an open food forest concept coupled with companion planting in 100+ species varieties in a 4-Dimensional model.  The more diverse, integrated, and complete the system the more resilient over time.  The majority of horticulture systems taught by universities use very limited time scales to grow food of any kind, 20 years or less for trees.  So silly, for a fruit that’s been grown everywhere on the planet for over 10,000 years.  ‘The Holistic Orchard’, by Michael Phillips is a cornerstone of ideas on any fruit tree growing, as well as food forests.  Cornell University Germplasm, Plant Genetic Resource Unit, in Geneva, NY has I believe genetic apple samples like scion available, at least they used too.  It’s one of the largest US genetic diversity crop repository’s and worth checking out, regardless.  Apples crossed the globe before antiquity by human hands, they are titans of human society.  Which foods since humans started growing their own food were closest to where they slept?  Cheers.  

Nick Shepherd wrote:How close to the southern drip line of a couple of large oaks can I plant a couple of apple trees.  The trees are southern red oaks about 2’ in diameter.  I will use MM111 rootstock, planning on planting 2-3 apples south of and parallel to the oaks in an east to west row.

Maybe you could plant the row of apples starting about 5' away and angling out to 30 or 40' at the other end? Report back in 30 years on the how the various distances affected growth?

Coydon Wallham wrote:Maybe you could plant the row of apples starting about 5' away and angling out to 30 or 40' at the other end? Report back in 30 years on the how the various distances affected growth?

I love how permaculture people think long term, bucking the more common "this season's fad is next season's sad" phenomenon which I see all around me.

I planted a baby Monkey Puzzle tree (Araucaria araucana). I will be pushing up the Daisies before I even know if it's a boy tree or a girl tree. I planted it anyway. Regardless of its sex, it is still a tree and it will still sequester carbon.