Low rpm water wheel high horse power.

I just joined after reading Mac a bees statements and the replies. I am in my 8th decade. Here is my input: in 1950 my Alhambra High School chemistry instructor Miller assigned us subjects for Term Papers. I chose static electricity and its possible uses. He turned me down, saying it was nonsense. I then chose the Periodic Chart and its possible expansion encompassing undiscovered elements. He told me it was okay but a waste of time as all the elements had been discovered. He was serious. I was young. A couple of years later, I thought it would be great if I could put a radio inside of a hat, like a football helmet. This was before Sony invaded the scene. Another: roll bars for cars and trucks, not just race cars. Most everyone thought it nonsense, not practical. The point is this: we are, as individuals, each a vortex that looks out onto the universe that is, was and ever will be. From time to time we "think of" what could manifest, as if it were "new'. . Since we all come from the same source of light energy, what we think of can be. What is often unknown is how to get there. As a species, we have accumulated data but not all data. It is frequently stated, as Dave Turpin points out, you cannot change the laws of physics; you cannot create energy out of nothing; you can, as Dave Livingston points out, convert it with certain resultant loses BUT that assumes we know everything, which we do not. Our journey within our known universe is to discover new approaches, and in Mac a bees case, curiosity and investigation to unleashing and utilizing water wheel energy. He may appear to be wrong according to what we know presently BUT he is spot-on for turning on the searchlight and looking. It is the journey that counts. In that journey, as often occurs, an oblique direction, is even accidentally taken, and voila! a new avenue is opened up, for example x & y extending into infinity can actually be imagined to be looped back and we have 3D images on two dimensional screens. Not possible, right? Well, we have TV's that do that. Knowledge is NOT finite. It is infinite and expanding exponentially. Let us go forward into the expanse with joy and insatiable experimentation, especially in renewable energy. For example, all the naysayers say photosynthesis cannot produce sufficient electricity. Really? Okay, don't poke around there, go drink a beer and know all has been done and there is nothing more. Realize, the earth for millions of years has been using the green stuff very effectively. And, as for static electricity? Naw…nothing like nano technology or binary language will ever exist, right? jp

Jack P. : You are 100% correct! if we will not except change then we will never see improvement, anyone who thinks outside the box should be rewarded !

And there is no better place to see that that happens then here at Permies! By definition ANY hypothesis is correct if you can't prove it wrong !
Big AL

Hello all,
I would like to point out that a water wheel will not turn at exactly the same speed all the time, so a DC set-up is your only alternative. I like a good treadmill or hospital bed motor.
I ahven't read through all the replies, but I read Perpetual Motion Machine, which this is not. The reason some would call it that is because they are thinking how a pump requires energy input, but not thinking about gravity as that input a la hydraulic ram pump.
Good luck and take the nay-sayers with a grain of salt.

did mac abees gethis water wheel built

Dave Turpin wrote:Speed does matter, otherwise you cannot calculate POWER.
......

If you would care to share the fundamental properties of your invention, though, I would be happy to help you with the calculations.

Quoted this one of the many because of a similar but different question.

Forgetting the water wheel for a moment and if it were a flywheel (of sorts) and a small solar powered electric motor were driving it, say 1kW -1,25kVa - ~1.35hp (simply a base figure that makes for easy math) what would be the limit on the size of the pump it could drive. A 75mm / 3"?

I know it's a bit like "how long is a piece of string" but following Newtons 2nd the 1kW should be the governing factor? Or not?

Hi Mac, please help me how to calculate the wheel dia, and bucket size and how many buckets for a 20kw capacity for a undershot water wheel

I want to know the total power i can produce from a water stream in a river flowing near my ice factory.

River width = 50 meter
River average depth = 4 meter (let us say we will use a water wheel max from 3 4 meter.
Water velocity = 6 m/s

urgent reply will be appreciated.



can i produce 150 hp, i have to run 2 refrigerant compressor currently having 75 hp motor each.

this is why i love the internet. its currently 12:18 am and i should have been to bed hours ago yet i just read a five year old thread about a perpetual motion machine... God's speed ladies and gentlemen. God's speed...

over or under shot waterwheel is not so efficient.
turbine or pelton turbine is the most efficient.

I saw a " drop in stream " turbine that hung off it's
drive shaft in the stream flow.
how simple and Very efficient!

Please forgive if I have posted in the wrong place. I am new to this website and I like what I see!

I am having a devil of a time trying to size a generator to my 4 foot water wheel...breast shot 24 cup @ 12" wide and 8" deep.

Can anyone put me in the ballpark on the maximum size of generator to use with my wheel?

I have 9-10 gpm flowing in to the wheel at the 2' level and the cups have been modified to hold a majority of the water until the cup reaches the bottom of the rotation.

At maximum water flow, the wheel turns at 22 rpm with no load on P204 pillow block bearings and a 3/4" keyed shaft. Flow dimenished over night because my inlet screens get clogged with debit and the rpm rate dimenished to around 15.

I have added a 72 tooth, #35 sprocket, to each side of the axle, which couples to a 10 tooth sprocket on the first level of gearing to give me 150 ish rpm.

I can not determine my final gearing until I know which generator I will be using.

Generators are expensive and I do not want to trial and error this as it will be cost prohibitive.

Thanks in advance!

Hey, so first, lets assess how much power is available.

Here is the calculator I am using: https://greener4life.com/Hydroelectric-Power-Calculator

You have 10gpm flow and 2' of head. Converting that to SI units, 10gpm is 0.0006 m^3/s, and 2' is about .6 meter. Lets use 100% for efficiency just to get an idea... When I plug those values into the calculator I get .0035 kw or 3.5 watts. So basically, after losses, there is no meaningful power available. You could probably use it to spin a little hobby motor and have it light up a couple of LEDs. Ideally you would want a permanent magnet brushed DC motor that is low RPM. One of those old-school bike headlamps that rests against the wheel might be a good match.

https://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Motorized-Friction-Generator-Headlight/dp/B01LAGN522/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=bike+headlamp+generator&qid=1623427652&sr=8-6

Appreciate your suggestion.

I was getting ready to order a $400, 800 watt, brushless, low cog generator but had a gut feeling it is overkill.

I do have a brushed pmg motor out of a Slime air compressor...guess I will give that a try.

Heck, if it will charge a couple of batteries, that will be fine for my use.

Yeah, I would look at it as a learning opportunity. To put this amount of power in perspective, a single AA battery holds something like 3 watthours. So assuming you can get half of the available power, it will take 2 hours to charge a AA battery.

Is there a site with more water flow, or a way to tap into the source higher up to generate more head? The fact that hydro runs 24/7 does really add up, but I sort of think anything less than about 20 watts is going to be hard to justify spending much money on. Then again, if it is close to the batteries (I had to run 500 feet of 10ga wire to get access to my stream) or if you like it just as lawn art, then there is no reason not to do it.

Anyway, keep me posted, and I would love to see a picture of your setup.

There is only 30 inches of fall across my property. I can't raise the water any higher because a culvert for the residential road is in line with my property.

I do have a 2" ram pump that I can use to make the wheel over shot but I lose a great deal of flow from my breast shot feed line and there is little if any gain in rpms. The gain in height is countered by the loss of flow...

I am going to try an experimental siphon to increase water flow...I have my doubts though. I know that, generally, the output of a siphon has to be lower than the water level of the pick up end. However, some of the Greek and Roman devices I have seen indicates that a siphon may work if the line from the water to highest point is short, and small, while the down slope part of the line is longer and larger in diameter. I figure that the weight of the water on the long side will create more suction than the weight on the short side and keep the siphon flowing. Make sense? Or am I wasting my time? I am not educated or smart enough to do the math to prove my thoughts but I do have 20 years experience with aircraft hydraulics and 20 more watching and studying alternative power. I think it is worth a shot and will be reasonably cheap enough to try.

My stream runs enough water to fully flow trough a 1 ft pipe. If I could capture half of that, the water wheel would probably spin off the bearings. LOL.

BTW, I tested my brushed DC motor and only got 3.5 vdc with my 1500 rpm drill...believe I will look for something else in the 12 volt + range.

The wheel has been yard art for many years. I thought I might be able to use it for backup power but my thoughts are dashing.

My ram pump, 1.14 gpm, fills up my 100 gallon pond about 12 times a day. The pond is about 6 feet above creek level. I suppose I could bell siphon the pond to feed the wheel intermittently...not motivated or convinced this is worth while.

I will keep hacking away with it until I get something workable...or go broke / die trying. LOL.

Appreciate your interest and input...will take more pics after reinstalling the geared wheel.

Yeah, you are correct, a ram pump would in fact make things worse.

If I am understanding what you are saying, it sounds like you are just diverting a part of your stream through a PVC pipeline to drive your wheel, and you are thinking of siphoning more water to the wheel? A siphon will still flow even if there is a point in the line that is higher than the intake. Two things will dictate how much water flows through your siphon: the height difference between inflow and outflow, and the resistance of the pipe. For a given head, a large pipe will flow more water. Changing pipe size partway through the line will not have any effect except for reducing the drag in the larger section.

A water wheel will only spin (nearly) as fast as the water hitting it (and the water will only travel as fast as the slope it is pouring down will allow). Applying more water to the wheel would give you more power, but you do not have to worry about the wheel spinning apart unless you also increased the pressure.

IF the stream has considerably more water, AND you can route it so you have the maximum drop occuring right at the wheel (using a culvert or ditch or some sort of raised flume), then you might be able to bank on enough power to run a few lights, and power a laptop or something like that.

As for the generator - DC motors spin faster as the voltage increases, and consequently produce more voltage as the speed you turn it increases. This relationship can be changed by how the windings are done inside the motor. You will probably want to find a motor that was designed to spin at fairly low RPMS. Also, a permanent magnet motor is going to be a better generator than a series wound motor (where the stationary magnetic field is being created by an electromagnet - as creating this field will rob you of some of the power).

Yes, I have only diverted part of the stream with a dual screened intake connected to 4" corrugated line on the pond side. The line is buried in a kind of sideways question mark formation and connects to a sediment (sump) tank next to my wheel. The formation of the line pushes enough water to feed the wheel or my RAM pump.

In hind sight, PVC would have been a better choice since laminar flow would be more likely. Oh well, the line I am using has been in for 14 years. I have to snake it a couple of times a year to get the sediment out.

Truth be known, the water wheel set up came after my RAM pump system...the drive pipe serves dual purposes to keep costs down. If the siphon trick works good enough, I will use the excess water from the RAM whenever the RAM is not in use (which is most of the time). I only use it to water the garden.

Next steps are to finish painting my wheel and reinstalling it. Then I am going to try the siphon method to see if I can get increased flow to the top of the wheel. Meanwhile, I will continue to try and find a low cogging, low rpm, continuous duty PMG.

Fun, fun, fun...LOL.

Here's a story for you!
I thought the my major problem was going to be getting the CREEK (14000gpm) to turn my wheel fast enough to produce power. Wrong answer.
Wheel turns from 6RPM to 12RPM depending on what my Midnite Classic 250 has as a MPPT.
I have a gear ratio of 35 - 1 so, if my wheel is turning at 10 RPM, my PMA is spinning at 350RPM. Peak RPM is 380 for 120vac, rectified I get 227VDC out of my rectifier into the  Midnite Classic 250.
Problem is, very low current.
I'm charging 14kwh battery bank of Nisson Leaf Li-ion batteries that have a 30a optimal charge current and I am getting 1 - 2amps in! 1 can pull 1500wstts for 8.25 hours out of my batteries, but then at 1 -2amps in, it takes 5days to bring the batteries up to the 58.8vdc full charge!
This is the 3rd PMG, 2 MPPT charge controller,  3rd set of batteries L16S, Deep Cycle lead acid 12vdc in series parallel (2banks) for 48vdc(58.8vdc) new 14kwh Li-ion batteries.
I AM AT A TOTAL LOSS, AM I AM AN ELECTRONICS INSTRUCTOR AND TECHNICIAN WITH 30+ YEARS OF EXPERIENCE!
Midnite Classic has said they think their unit is working properly, so don't bother calling back.
I won't let this thing beat me, but right now I need some help!

GYSGT RICK ROY USMC Ret.
gysgtrickroy@runbox.com

Hang in there Gunny! It is a learning experience most of all.

I am glad to see others persisting at this.

Being an electrical guru, I am sure you have considered that low amps is a result of wire size and the number of windings in the generator. I would say RPMs, but you have the flow. The charge controller could be oversized too I suppose.

How big is your wheel? What style is it? What is the cup capacity?

What is your RPMs without the electrical system connected?

What type of generator do you use?

Good luck! If you find the magic combination, I'd like to know. Thanks.

So I'm a newbie here...  fascinating discussion in this thread.  I have a question.  I've got a design for a water wheel and have done the math up to knowing that, in the right configuration, I will have 10,000 ft-lbs of torque trying to turn it.  What do I have to do to determine what the actual hp output will be?  Do I have to identify all the friction and other resistance that will be acting upon it while trying to turn?  And along with that, will I have to try to determine its speed (rpm)?  Thanks in advance.

Here is some hard earned advise! If you have a year around free flowing CREEK,  you can generate power. I have tried 3 different battery configurations,  3 different charge controllers & 3 different motors (PMG) .
BE  VERY CAREFUL about the peak voltage & current at the rated RPM. If your CREEK spins your wheel like mine does, I can get up to about 600RPM  on a 2kw PMG.  That is using a 112 TOOTH MAIN sprocket to a 12 TOOTH shaft drive sprocket to a 72 TOOTH secondary main drive gear to a 17 TOOTH drive gear on the PMG Shaft. PMG IS 2kw at 350 RPM with a +10% variance. After building the transmission, getting the PMG RPM was not the issue! Getting the current to the batteries was!
I am using a Midnight Classic 250 charge controller, which has a Hydro Curve built in. Classic will take voltage over the 57vdc (48vdc system) and supposedly convert it to current, well I am inputting 227 volts wild A.C., Into the rectifiers and into the controller and getting out the 57-58vdc required to chargfe the batteries, but only about 1-2amps of charge current. Useless trickle charger!!
Late last year I got to a Midnight Classic engineer who,  I hope diagnosed my current problem! I was using some really cool 12vdc circuit breakers in my charge line. Everytime i tripped the breakers there was a carbon  build-up that acted as resistance to my current flow!! Voltage across an open circuit is always source voltage, so a DMV looked good, but no current through the breaker contacts. Have not been able to prove the theory at this point, but will test new circuit when it warms up around here.
I have many hard learned, costly mistakes, but much too long to write at 00:49 at night! If you want to discuss the water wheel project, come back the the forum again and we'll work out a way for one on one comms.

GYSGT RICK ROY USMC RET

You don’t need 60 hp. All you need is a wheel to turn a 60 inch pulley at 60 rpm belted to a 1 inch pulley giving you 3600 rpm which is enough to turn a 40 kw generator. Remember, a pulley can be made out of wood. As a matter of fact, the old sawmills had wooden pegs on the wheel that worked as sprocket teeth turning  another but smaller horizontal wheel with
wooden pegs and so on to get the 36 inch circular saw blade to turn at around 3000 or so rpm.

I guess I don’t understand the original premise of this thread; “the generator has to turn at 3600 rpm”.

Our hydro set up turns at 116 rpm, goes into a gear box and spins on the other side at 606 rpm. From that we make 8 megawatts.

I have a diesel driven generator that turns at 1800 rpm so that the engine is in its best torque curve.

But maybe the original poster was just trying to use standard generation to get something out of a unique runner/turbine rather than wire up his own generator???

Richard Roy wrote:Here's a story for you!
I thought the my major problem was going to be getting the CREEK (14000gpm) to turn my wheel fast enough to produce power. Wrong answer.
Wheel turns from 6RPM to 12RPM depending on what my Midnite Classic 250 has as a MPPT.
I have a gear ratio of 35 - 1 so, if my wheel is turning at 10 RPM, my PMA is spinning at 350RPM. Peak RPM is 380 for 120vac, rectified I get 227VDC out of my rectifier into the  Midnite Classic 250.
Problem is, very low current.
I'm charging 14kwh battery bank of Nisson Leaf Li-ion batteries that have a 30a optimal charge current and I am getting 1 - 2amps in! 1 can pull 1500wstts for 8.25 hours out of my batteries, but then at 1 -2amps in, it takes 5days to bring the batteries up to the 58.8vdc full charge!
This is the 3rd PMG, 2 MPPT charge controller,  3rd set of batteries L16S, Deep Cycle lead acid 12vdc in series parallel (2banks) for 48vdc(58.8vdc) new 14kwh Li-ion batteries.
I AM AT A TOTAL LOSS, AM I AM AN ELECTRONICS INSTRUCTOR AND TECHNICIAN WITH 30+ YEARS OF EXPERIENCE!
Midnite Classic has said they think their unit is working properly, so don't bother calling back.
I won't let this thing beat me, but right now I need some help!

GYSGT RICK ROY USMC Ret.
gysgtrickroy@runbox.com

I might look to the common alternator as a potential answer to your problem. Not the answer itself but is genius in conception:

Make three phase ac power and rectify it down to the voltage that you need. I would think you are more than capable of making your own Jenny. It seems to be your weak link in terms of charging.

Another point to consider is making a governor of some sort. With micro hydro it seems to be the missing link. People are so hyper focused on getting flowing water to stir electrons that they fail to realize the importance of a governor. It need not be complicated as the one we use at work is a Woodward Governor designed back in the 1800’s because it works so flawlessly. Heck a fly ball governor pulling on a bike brake caliber would get the consistent speed people are looking for. We use caliber brakes on our Jenny’s at work.

This applies to anyone or any stream, but as a quick fast way to determine how much power a given body of water will generate, just use the 2kw per cubic feet per second rule.

Technically it is 2.87 but it does not factor in friction losses.

So let’s say you can get 5 cubic feet per second of water flow, then you can generate 10 kw. But keep in mind seasonal flows that increase and decrease.

Also remember that energy can be converted into any other form. That means you can convert kws into mechanical horsepower, or boiler horsepower, or whatever energy form that you can better relate too.