I was at a meeting tonight that may organize another county against the pipeline.
There are lots of things going on in this fight, and there are things a large organized group of permaculturepeople might do that could expedite renewables by stopping the east coast fracking pipeline
I'll try and lay out the scene briefly tonight and in more detail in later posts, it's late i'm tired, i need more information myself
The pipeline is promising cheap "clean" energy to the eastern part of the country which will stall real investment in renewable energy sources indefinitely
The pipeline proposal has not yet been presented to FERC (federal energy regulatory commission), so opposition this early in the game might persuade investors and the power companies proposing it to rethink the proposal before it is even made later this year
If you live in the pipeline region (virginia, west verginia, north carolina) I'll try and share action groups you can join with
If you live in other states not directly impacted, there will be information in following posts on where to send letters ,.
I know this is not the first pipeline in the country, but the large amount of impact it will have could really screw things up for our renewable future
it will directly negatively impact large areas of west virginia, national forests, numerous watersheds, rivers , aquifers, even the drinking water of Washington DC
I usually would not ask others for help , but i figure i should at least give my permaculture buddies a chance to get in on what may be a game changer, stopping this could accelerate renewables by leaps and bounds
power companies are looking for cleaner burning fuels to satisfy clean air regs due to go into effect soon, and this pipeline gives them an easy way out, methane instead of coal. But of course the better way is wind and solar and...
so blocking their easy access to fossil gas could accelerate implementation of renewables in major centers throughout the east coast
They go into these things with full knowledge that there will be opposition. Going after the supply side is flashy but seldom effective. Energy conservation is less flashy but there are real incremental gains. So long as a market exists, the supply will come from somewhere. Much effort has gone into destroying crops of drugs in Central and South America. They plant extra to make up for losses. The market must dry up for the flow of drugs to stop. Cheap energy is like a drug. Society is dependent on it.
I would like to see a million people protest and petition the government to add more environmental taxes to dirty energy. If fossil fuels are heavily taxed, renewables won't seem so expensive. I guarantee that if the people gather in vast numbers, demanding a new tax, the government will happily provide it. Now, convince a million people that paying more is a good thing.
thanks Dale, that's part of the reason for this post, later today or tomorrow i will have posted a pair of addresses to send concerns to, along with a sample letter,, one to FERC, and another to Friends of Nelson County, they will hold the copies and resubmit them to Ferc after the preaproval request has been submitted
at this point in time the pipeline does not exist in the federal process, so any comments mailed to them will not be officially included in the process, but the earlier public involvement happens, the more people will take notice. If there are a million letters to Ferc about an outrage that hasn't even been filed it will alert the pipeline that we are not going to bend over for this one.
I'm also going to try and get names of individuals in public places that are leaning to supporting us in our opposition.
Here's a link to a song just written, with a video about the pipeline
Not so much 'controversial' as 'likely to turn political'.
Plus I think fracking probably counts as 'toxic gick'.
The thread is also set to show up in the 'politics' and 'social justice' forums, all of which are within the cider press so hopefully we won't get spammed by new members with agendas as only trusted members with apples can post here.
This is an important topic as i see it, (and of course i acknowledge that others may not believe the same way).
And i often wonder when people like Geoff Lawton and the like talk about a "tipping point" if they are talking specifically about these sorts of issues where so many of the people can get together and influence what actually happens in the world, to the extent of reducing these sorts of crazinesses and restore a semblance of sanity to the major projects we as a society undertake.
I don't know if there is a forum or area where we might start to consider exercising our permaculture muscle on events in the world today, locally, regionally, and globally.
And I also know that there are many other groups already at work on this issue, so even if the permaculture community got together as a group and put some muscle forward to stop the pipeline, and the pipeline actually got stopped, it wouldn't be a clear victory for "permaculture" or any one group, but working with others in a team effort it might be possible that we could reach a tipping point right here and now with this one issue
certainly there may be enough groups already putting enough energy into this that it wouldn't make a difference whether permies people got involved or not, but the more the merrier
I'm not suggesting that we do nothing but focus on big picture issues, i spend most of my time in the garden or working for money, or sitting enjoying my fish pond,, but occasionally when something really outrageous is about to happen, maybe it might be worth our time to tip things a different way
in the end we're the ones going to have to clean up whatever messes are created
I totally agree with the importance of addressing fracking, pipelines and excessive dependence on fossil fuel in an effective way. Please keep posting whatever you learn or consider worthwhile tactics. Fracking is happening in our county and came really close to happening in the section where our land sits but fortunately after promising folks a lot of money to lease per acre the company backed out. We were able to slip into what was supposed to be a private, by invitation only meeting among BIG land owners here and were given a copy of the lease contract with out having to sign a confidentiality statement.............it is a really bad contract... I think folks here just saw dollar signs...this is a very poor county and I think that is what most of the contract companies are counting on. We, having 'only' forty acres, were ignored when we did not sign a lease...there were enough big land owners to make it happen anyway. We had hoped to have some power by going on record as protesting from the beginning and by the fact that we have publically been known as organic growers for forty years in this area....but we didn't have a lot of confidence that that would help in the long run.
My lazy self says this is a slow process and it has to get really bad before some will see the importance in giving up or at least using much less fossil fuel...I think that is what it will take to stop pipe lines. fracking, endless war.................
my more activist side would like to do 'other things' ...I need to find some middle ground.
"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
I'm glad that the company backed out in your case, and that's what i would like to see happen here. There are lots of delaying tactics being taken up by counties in the pipelines way, as well as the George Washington National Forest, and countless geologically sensitive areas, archeological , historical etc all to be laid waste to.
and of course not counting my friend in W VA who has wells on three sides, and they told him he might as well sign the lease cause they would just drill sideways and frack the propane out of his land anyway- and since he owns his mineral rights, that would be totally illegal, but these guys are hoodlums, gangsters, and the national government is turning a blind eye
They have suspended clean air and clean water requirements, nobody even knows what chemicals they are putting into the ground, and out of a million gallons they put down only 500,000 come back up to be stored in "ponds"
and when this crap comes back out of the ground it is radioactive. what a nightmare, we are actually poisoning the state of west virginia and many others
I heard on the news that propane will be cheaper this winter--what a comfort that will be to my friend who can't breathe the air or drink the water.
Anyway, this is one element of a greater fight, and some would say even if we win this we could still eventually lose. They have given the go ahead for a western exit for canadian oil sands, (although they still have to negotiate with native peoples that have the pipeline pass through their land--the article said that postponing the keystone pipeline would not stop the oil from flowing-----but it did slow them down a bit, if we had oked it 5 years ago, they would be desecrating that area even faster
and the more active we get with alternatives, the less demand and the greater chance that the whole market will dry up, and some of these marginal supplies will just be left alone.
Anyway, like i've been saying, there are enough big players in this pipeline battle that they may be able to stop it completely anyway, but if we, as a permaculture community could mount an effort, it would be that much better
We would be joining the Sierra Club and all sorts of heavy environmental hitters. And since this is a Federal approval process, objections can come from anywhere in the country, even if just on the grounds that it threatens a national forest, which is a public trust.
And the issue that this is cheap, dirty, fossil fuel is one that can be made with other prominent figures who may join the battle and slow this down as well. The rockefellers recently divested themselves of petroleum holdings, so if you know any investors, that might be a way to reach out to them to just say no to dirty money.
There are a whole lot of ways this pipeline can fail to be approved, and if it does it will put a whole new demand for renewables front and center, if the pipeline goes through, look forward to at least another 25 years of fracking and fossil fuels.
Bob : Forgive me if I go a little off topic, we can correct course latter if it is necessary, I want to speak a minute about people who like Judith B. who
find themselves being attacked by The Fracking oil/gas conglomerate !
The time to have your water tested is now ! if you have one of the 'Shale Plays' that might contain oil/gas -Now is the time to get Your water tested!
Find out who drilled each well in your area, and see what tests have been done as drilled and later tests.
If Big oil/gas ruins your 40 acres -a check from the gas company will be small compensation ! But without a pre-existing test done by a 3rd party, they
will be able to say Pre-existing condition faster than ''Green Corn through the New Maid" !
O.K., climbing off of my soap box now ! For the Good of the Crafts ! Big AL
Success has a Thousand Fathers , Failure is an Orphan
no problem, there are lots of people in far more precarious circumstances than i, a pipeline might run a couple miles from my place, but some people might be right directly in the path of a fracking well, or whatever, and i'd be happy if that piece of advice you just gave was the most useful thing that happened on this thread.
We do have courts and some honest people in positions of relative power who might be able to help us. The more successful claims, the more expensive the energy becomes, the better the renewables and sane development start to look.
If the oil and gas companies really had to pay fair prices, compensate for all the damage, etc they would stop tomorrow
I don't know if the tide is turning or if it's still a cat and mouse game, but i just got an email this morning from email@example.com (Anyone can be a friend of nelson county) and the wording was interesting, Dominion is saying they haven't even decided to do the pipeline project yet. With court cases filed against them in federal court already and they haven't even prefiled with FERC, and all sorts of meetings and the like, rallys and bands even, feels like we're stopping the vietnam war all over again.
Yes, i know the Vietnam war stopped for a number of reasons, not just the protestors, but i'd like to take some credit for raising consciousness back then (even if i was just a bit player in a multimillion cast of players)
Sounds like what Bill said, something to the effect that individually our work may not be impressive, but taken as a whole it becomes a formidable accomplishment.
Don't get me wrong, i think flexing our muscles now with a letter campaign will put everyone in industry and government on notice that we are dedicated to finding a better way. Maybe in time they will even start to listen.
Reminds me of the guy beating the mule and the mule wouldn't budge, minister sees it and grabs the stick out of the guys hands and begins a long lecture on cruelty--the guy says, ok, if you're so smart you get this mule to work. Minister picks up a 2x4 and whacks the mule dead center in the middle of his head-- the guy runs over and grabs the board, and asks what the hell, you'll kill my poor mule, what happened to gentleness and kindness-- minister said you do have to be gentle and kind, but you have to get their attention first
I went to a county planning commission meeting last night, nice intimate little gathering, as many employees there as citizens. They found out we didn't want the pipeline, i and i put in a word for sustainablelocal food supplies (which they said they had been thinking about anyway " it's a hot topic"), also the idea that it may be time to stop giving big land holders tax breaks, and how the monocrop trees harvested for pulp and lumber are ruining the soil and that's why Buckingham is the poorest county-- got on a bit of a soapbox there, but they indulged me, maybe someone even heard me.
Just because i'm not posting everyday, does not mean i have forgotten or that the problem is solved, all the fracking will stop as of yesterday, all the trucks and well drilling equiptment will be turned into other things, and those shale deposits will continue to be repositories for lots of carbon that doesn't need to go into the atmosphere, all those nasty chemicals will be sent to plants to be detoxified and turned into electronic controls for millions of graders that will start to run swales on contour around the world, and there is peace and harmony once more in the world, where everyone is first a caretaker of the earth, and second a caretaker of all their brothers and sisters everywhere.
i haven't posted because i'm watching and trying to learn.
I went to a board of supervisors meeting of the county government this evening and didn't have much to say, although i did blurt out a bit about the idea the pipeline was a done deal and we might as well get used to it. Maybe it is a done deal, but in my mind we don't give up till the last inch is buried and there's nothing more to do.
I still believe the best way to fight this is to get at the investors and convince them that this is a real bad idea.
Dominion says one thing to investors about a century and a half of fossil fuels, and how it's a global marketplace they will be selling to, and then turn around and tell FERC that this is for our east coast and south only, not for export, and therefore the pipeline qualifies under eminent domain. so there's got to be a way to clue the investors in that this pipeline can't possibly go on for centuries, we will have burned up all the oxygen by that time if we keep on going the way we are.
actual peer estimates say more like a 10-15 years supply
are millionaires really that stupid?
anyway, the meeting was kind of fun, and i totally recommend getting involved in local government,, maybe not so much state and federal, but if we could get a lot of things going like in Portland and Missoula all over the country ....
so i'm convinced the real answer is to get congress to reapply clean air and water regs to fracking, that may at least force them to clean up their act.
give local municipalities the right to monitor and enforce well closures of violators and we might see a change
vote for candidates who publicly go on record against fracking (and pipelines and the rest) don't believe them if they say they'll study up on it, that's just politician speak for "go away kid you bother me"
anyway, pretty good day, due for an inch or so of rain, life's nothing but a party and we're all guests of honor, enjoy the show
thought i'd put up another post, and it does seem that Dominion is exploring alternate routes farther south, we have a woman here who has been initiated into one of the Native American Tribes and has been doing research on burial sites, so if they did try to stick with the planned route that would have taken it within a mile and a half up my creek, it would mean lots of delays and unbelievable red tape, but nothing is for sure, and everyone is sort of waiting.
lots of people have already written to FERC, but i'm waiting till the election, that seems like what will really decide this thing.
The congress has been giving the gas industry anything it wants.
When Pennsylvania started to hold their feet to the fire over contaminated water, they simply bought a new governor, and one of the first things he did was cancel the water pipeline to save the destroyed town, and ended the lawsuit that would have made the industry pay for it.
I don't even know whether i care anymore, i don't live over a shale deposit and if they do move the pipeline a few miles, the firestorm probably might be under control by the time it reached me, and hopefully by then my properties main frame water design will have hydrated everything beyond burning., but who knows
Anyway, i saw the gasland film the other night, amazing to think these companies have gotten hold of the military's PSYOPS tactics and are utilizing them against us--the military is prevented from using them on american citizens, but the gas industry has no such restraints
I was out in the garden tonight, just sitting watching the clouds, trying to clear my mind of negativity and ill will toward all, always good to come back to that knowledge that the universe is perfect, and we are all perfect just as we are right now, and when we change ever so slightly tomorrow, we will be perfect then also
One thing in the film that jumped out at me, cause the thought had been in my mind, this guy made a statement about how we have been doing this to people around the world in all of our energy "development" the only difference with this is it's in our backyard and involves educated middleclass people
I just found out that friends of nelson county now has an "air force" to monitor/document the pipeline route.
Their plan is to photograph all the topography, water, etc and keep careful records both before and after the pipeline.
So far out i can't believe the money and energy they are bringing to bear on this issue, makes our little group look insignificant in comparison.
This is a great show, life is so interesting sometimes
this won't totally stop the fracking, but if they decide it's just too much trouble to do this pipeline at this time, it will put a hitch in their giddyup
Then maybe, if enough time drags on, renewables might make enough inroads to start to make the whole thing less desirable.
I see where there have been marches and demonstrations against fracking all over the world, maybe it's time for glass rooms to capture sunlight, shade rooms to keep cool, and rocket stoves to bridge the dark days
Hi there, I don't know how this is being moderated, but i would like some advice on reaching a wider audience, stimulating discussion, and hopefully keeping everything civil outside of the cider press.
Here's the hope. It's like permaculture systems approach. get people from our communities against the pipeline coming to permies to help participate in this (these) posting(s), but then staying to learn what permaculture has to offer.
I will understand if it generates too much work keeping things civil, or if obvious corporate shills start to shout things down why this might need to stay in the cider press, and i certainly defer to your experience managing this site.
Anyway, surveyors in the field, volunteers carrying handouts door to door along the pipeline route, internal bickering and personality craziness, and constantly reminded what a blessed life i have.
I just read some research that one lady did on burial grounds in the pipeline route that may keep them chasing their tails for a while.
keep up the work with rocket stoves and energy efficiency, the sooner natural gas becomes obsolete the less likely the pipelines and fracking will continue.
This is an exploratory filing which in theory gives them an eminent domain sort of right to trespass for surveys to determine the feasibility of the pipeline.
Now is the time to start to send letters, overwhelm FERC and let Dominion know that this is an uphill battle
Chairman Cheryl A. LaFleur
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
888 First Street, NE
Washington, DC 20426
I will keep everybody updated, and the thing a national audience could write about especially is the violation of the George Washington National Forest, a national treasure that will have a gouge cut through it that will never see trees again
There's lots of people joining this fight, and stopping the pipeline can at least slow the fracking down
the obvious thing about this is the GW forest is also on the shale, and with a pipeline right there and the precedent set for desecration, how long do you think we will have any national treasures left?
Look out Father of our Country, here come the f**ckers
Hi guys, i want to thank everybody who has viewed these posts so far and offered encouragement, most of us know about fracking and believe one way or another, so i won't belabor this post with a whole lot of rant on that
The atlantic coast pipeline being put forward by Dominion et al is scheduled now with FERC for geographical feasibility studies. No one in their right mind would consider the geology stable for a pipeline this size, and i imagine they expect to do repairs periodically when a compressor station explodes, or a cloud of methane vapor (+ lots of cancer causing chemicals) leaks into the environment, or of course the nightmare if a line should burst wide open and catch fire. So as in war, they expect to take casualties--just not themselves.
This pipeline is THE supplier for east coast ports and they are planning on it, they are trying hard to connect with an intersection of two other pipelines here in Buckingham and my guess is once they can get the pipe to that intersection, they can pretty easily "improve" or add another line(s) to go wherever they want it.
This is a major deal for people who would like to see the fracking slow down and give renewables a chance to establish themselves--"cheap" gas will do nothing to help that and that is what this pipeline will deliver.
Warner, a democratic senator from VA has a warchest with sizeable amounts donated by dominion, and funny, he's pushing a plan to export natural gas to other parts of the world as an economic diplomacy. So voting democratic or republican on a straight ticket does nothing without checking their public stance on these issues. In fact, this gas craze is so pervasive in DC it's tough to find someone who will stand against it.
I'm just trying to say, the make or break of this Pipeline could have major effects on lots of people, and the earth itself, or at least that's what i believe.
And yes there is something you can do, no matter where you live, because the pipeline will invade the George Washington National forest and cut a swath that can never be forest again. Violating a national preserve is a national concern. Big Al talked about super tankers full of natural gas and the possibility of an atomic bomb level explosion as these tankers enter and leave our harbors. And once into the national forest having a precedent for intrusion, fracking wells will be next.
Chairman Cheryl A. LaFleur
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
888 First Street, NE
Washington, DC 20426
Identify the pipeline at the top of the letter: RE: Harmful Impacts of the proposed Atlantic Coast Pipeline in George Washington National forest. http://www.friendsofbuckinghamva.org/?page_id=213 this links you to a pdf with many environmental disruptions that will occur
The docket # PF15-6 put this at the top of every page and directly with the title line (above)
here's the start of one letter (note that this is an alternate addressee, both should work)
Kimberly Bose, Secretary
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
888 First Street, NE
Washington DC, 20426
REF: Atlantic Coast Natural Gas Pipeline – Dominion/Duke Energy
DOCKET NUMBER: PF 15-6
Dear Ms. Bose:
(This is one of the points made in this letter, naturally, what you write will be what concerns you the most, maybe you visit national parks, maybe you hunt ginseng, or fish in pristine waters, maybe you are a civil war buff and don't want historic features wiped out--whatever is important to you)
2. DISRUPTION OF NATURE, PARKS, RECREATION AREAS: The proposed pipeline study route would disrupt the George Washington National Forest, the peace and quiet of Yogaville property, the James River State Park, and Appalachian Trail, and other areas of great natural beauty. Thousands of trees will be ripped out, and can never be planted again on the pipeline right-of-way. Sensitive species’ habitat will be permanently damaged. There are so many beautiful birds, mammals, amphibians, and colorful insects including stunning dragonflies in our area. I am concerned with so much habitat disruption from the pipeline, that these species will be permanently affected. You may have seen the depressing report by the World Wildlife Fund that we have killed half the world’s animals since 1970 largely due to habitat loss. Do we really need this pipeline to add more destruction? I purchased this property for peace and quiet and proximity to nature. Please ask Dominion to consider alternate routes that do not disrupt national and state parks, recreation areas and areas of natural beauty.
So there you have it, The filing date was October 31, so the cutoff date for letters is November 14th, the docket number was just issued today, i know snail mail is a relic, and difficult and all that, but that is what the process demands to be effective.
Thanks for reading, and i know everybody is busy, but maybe this could be a tipping point
This is amazing to me, without thinking about the pipeline, just the amount of mis information and distorted information.
There is a two week window for comments to The George Washington National Forest to get them to block the entry of the pipeline. This would be a game changer for Dominion, and would move the pipeline farther north and make it considerably more expensive and maybe impossible.
I'm guessing there will be a considerable amount of pressure on the forest supervisor to let it through from policy makers in DC, but if the guy loves the forest i'm guessing he would be hoping for greater pressure from the public.
Anyway, i was sure they told us the two week window had already started, but now i'm told that they will set a date for replies from the public, and i'm sure the pipeline supporters will be well organized and writing to frack the forest.
I sometimes forget that those growth at any cost people are around, maybe i've been spending too much time with the relatively gentle people of permaculture.
anyway, the ferc address is applicable, and there will be another address coming of the forest supervisor, which might be a better venue for national response, since i also learned the overall responses to ferc about personal impact of the pipeline can be turned in for up to 6 months, and more than one letter may be sent.
I have a letter i'm working on and almost sent the other day, but new information means i have to go back and change.
anyway, just a quick update to let you all know.
I understand many people can't post on this forum so PM if there's any questions
oh , and you can still go to www.friendsofbuckinghamva.org and get a form letter to send, or write your own and use the address in the post above or on the website-- i'll post the forest supervisor address soon which may be more effective
Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
Bob Day : From this usually reliable source comes this story which appears to strike a blow for the preservation of water quality for many of the Midd-Altantic area cities !
Note that while future leases for the purpose of Fracking appear to be banned, existing permits also appear to be untouched ! And no mention of a pipeline! I expect
further developments, and wonder what You have heard ?
Note this other article with a different slant that does not mention pipelines bout says Va, Gov Terry McAuliffe stated he had a Federal promise that drilling would not happen,
and that he would 'stop' it himself !
There will be a comment period soon on the Atlantic Coast pipeline and whether the forest will allow the pipeline through the forest, when that happens I will post the name and address to send comments to, and there is also an electronic capability now that i wasn't aware of before which makes the commenting easier
Just got back from a group meeting on the pipeline issues, seems like everything is rush around, then wait, rush around then wait
Oh well, it's something to do i guess
anyway, good to hear from you again, trust all is well
I thought it might be time to reactivate this thread, if for no other reason than to note that the fight is still going on. It is still possible to make comments to FERC about corruption of ecosystems, water pollution when the line crosses karst terrain in the "Birthplace of Rivers",,,3-400 year old stands of natural forest, pristine trout streams, fracking, and climate change.
They have had to change the route many times, there is possible anti trust litigation being leveled against them, and the start date has been pushed back almost a full year. When people like me won't sell easements (ask how hard it is for a poor person to turn down 40k (likely more, but I'm not negotiating with them), then they can't go ahead and put together sections of the pipe ahead of the actual permit.
If our board of supervisors would turn down their permit the compressor station would have to wait for federal authority to force it through instead of starting construction without the permit, the more delays we can put in the way the longer and more expensive it gets, and eventually maybe we can save the National Forest and Birthplace of Rivers. (as well as my front 15 acres)
Hi to anyone who has watched this saga of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline.
As a landowner in the path, I have been sued recently recent coverage (my land is actually 29+ acres, with 2+ being coveted by the ACP)
The developments, despite the law suit seeking condemnation proceedings- have actually been some of the most promising in some time.
Essentially the water board would not outright deny the permit, but they have put conditions on it that will stall it a bit--maybe. The law suit is ACP's attempt to circumvent the conditional aspect of the permit, and again we go to the whim of judges who have found time and again against the rights of private property in favor of big money.
The Department of Environmental Quality, under heavy political control passed the permit on, despite many of the gaps in actual information required but the Water Board is made up of citizens who are supposed to review information and actually are the deciders as to whether the project would damage water supplies. They seemed to be more sensitive to the inadequacies of the permit application as it stands, and willing to hold the ACP's feet to the fire as it were, to get at the truth, and whether there actually was a good plan to prevent damage, or whether it was just another big money bluff-- destroy now, pay the fines later, rake in the money as fast as possible.
Anyway, I expect in about three weeks to find out whether their move to condemn is successful, and if not, then the project may face some pretty serious delays, since tree felling needs to be done by march 15th to avoid destroying migratory waterfowl nests.
Estimates are that the DEQ could not receive and process information before March, so likely there will be little tree felling done before it is time to sit back and wait for november 2018 before they even start clearing, entering winter construction and all the problems that entails.
In the meantime I have taken on a lawyer (one day before the suit was filed), their offers peaked last year at 62K and then dropped after 6 months of not talking to me at all to 35 K and the most recent was 28K but as soon as my lawyer started talking with them they raised the offer back to 60K, but our counter offer was 100k.
They told him they had dropped the offer to "get my attention". Yes I could use the money, so it is tempting to take the devil's offer, and I may have to at some point in the future, but for the time being I'm glad they haven't met my counter offer, and I hope the judges do the right thing, TWT
So if anyone likes trout fishing, this pipeline has the potential to destroy (through sedimentation) many pristine trout areas, and a prayer for the Virginia Water Board to do the right things is always welcome.