Starting a homestead - looking for general advice

Hi everyone--

My fiancee and I have recently purchased a 6 acre property on the northern edge of the Catskills in Eastern NY state. Since the purchase in Sept. we've become very interested in permaculture and hope to develop/restore the land gradually as we go. We do not live hear full time--we live NYC and plan to offset some of our costs through short term rentals of the property when we are not there. One day we do hope to live on the property for half the year or more.

I've done an initial read of a number of Permaculture books--Holzer's PC, Gaia's Garden, PC Handbook, The Resilient Farm... So I have a decent grasp of PC ideas but no practical experience and no real idea of how to adapt them to our particular property. I'm hoping some of you will be able to guide my thinking a bit. In particular, right now I'm trying to develop a vision for the future of the site and could use help determining what might succeed there. And then some advice on what could be done this spring/summer as a foundation for future work.

So some site details (see attached map):
Size: 5.8 acres
Location: Eastern NY State, North edge of the Catskills near Margaretville
Elevation: 1840'
Zone: 5a I think
Exposure: ESE to SE
Slope: Slopes from the top of the property at the NW to the bottom at the SE. Extreme (>10% slope maybe) at top. Level in center around pond. More gradual slope from pond to lower road.
Soil: Have not tested the soil yet. Very rocky in places. USDA soil survey says: NW quad (above pond)--Onteora/Ontusia soils, very stony; SW quad (above pond)--Willowemoc channery silt loam; NE quad (including pond)--Willowemoc channery silt loam; SE quad--Lordstown channery silt loam.
Rain: 40in annual
Water: spring fed pond with additional possible springs/seeps as indicated on map. Pond seems healthy with many frogs/tadpoles and limited number of both young and old Koi. House is on well/septic. The pond has an overflow that sends water down the property in numerous small rivulets.
Historical use: I think this area was pasture land

The attached map should give you some sense for the property. Gold arrows roughly indicate direction and degree of slope (more arrows=greater slope; 3 arrows together indicates a slope that would be intimidating to walk down under wet/snowy conditions, maybe over 10% grade). From the top of the property to the end of the pond, there is dense tree cover. So far I've only been able to identify what I think are Red Spruce and Honey Locust. Below the pond the land is mostly overgrown shrubs/grasses and some young trees.

Our initial thoughts:
- Clearing area N of pond for fruit/nut trees w/ guilds (but will the seep area cause water problems?)
- Eventually developing hugelkulture beds on the south-facing slope beneath the southern edge of the pond (or terraces? how to utilize pond overflow through beds? on contour or not?)
- Find an area or two to sheet mulch and try planting something
- Try a mushroom log

Our big questions:
- Is our soil bad for growing (or do we not know enough)?
- We probably need to do a good deal of tree thinning/clearing--any advice for going about this?
- Obviously we need to do a lot of observation before making any big decisions, but is there anything we should consider doing now?
- How to deal with the lower half of the property which we likely won't have much time to tend to immediately. Just let it grow? Periodically chop and drop? Broadcast some beneficial seeds?

Is there anything I've forgotten?

Any/all help appreciated!!!

Oh, and how will our ESE/SE orientation effect our growing potential? We lose sun by late afternoon because of the slope behind us. Thanks!

Howdy Ian, welcome to permies!
Just some random thoughts.

Try not to cut down to many trees untill you have them identified. Many trees are good nurse trees or add nitrogen etc.

The thing to do now is take time to observe and document what you already have. Develop a plan.

It looks like your road to the house is already functioning as a sort of swale. Might be able to use that latter for tree planting. It also looks like the main road has water catchment or a ditch that could be used.

How deep is the pond? That is a really nice asset!

Do you have any pictures from ground level that you could share?

Ian Douglas : Welcome to permies.com, and our sister site richsoil.com, A little paperwork to help you find your Permies Near Neighbors !

look at the space around your name and L@@K at mine! The attached link will help 'bring you up to speed' and help you navigate Permies where you
and your fiancé will find lots of Forum thread of interest to you. Link below :

https://permies.com/t/43625/introductions/Universal

This was posted by a fellow member , not a moderator or administrator, or staff, there is virtually no Trolling, and the only rule is ''Be nice''

Also, and this will be great practice to learn the system- on the forums page scroll down and find the Regional forums and click on Eastern(u.s.) from there
you will find the Forum Thread ''Upstate New York'' stop-in and say hi!

For the good of the Crafts! Big AL

allen lumley wrote:look at the space around your name and L@@K at mine!

Thanks, Al. Done!

Miles Flansburg wrote:
Try not to cut down to many trees untill you have them identified. Many trees are good nurse trees or add nitrogen etc.
The thing to do now is take time to observe and document what you already have. Develop a plan.
It looks like your road to the house is already functioning as a sort of swale. Might be able to use that latter for tree planting. It also looks like the main road has water catchment or a ditch that could be used.
How deep is the pond? That is a really nice asset!
Do you have any pictures from ground level that you could share?

Thanks, Miles! Will post more pics next. Pond is maybe 8' deep and 70' diameter. We love it...

Here's an aerial of the full property showing road at SE end and creek alongside.

Here are a few photos of parts of the upper half of the property.

Photo 1: Shot of the house from driveway
Photo 2: Shot of pond from west side looking to the east: note seep area (yellow flowers at left); spring (yellow flowers at center); outlet (yellow flowers at right)
Photo 3: Shot of the driveway

Ian Douglas wrote:Our big questions:
- Is our soil bad for growing (or do we not know enough)?

Getting your soil tested is dirt cheap (hehe) so I'd suggest collecting samples from a few locations the next time you are out at your property. At the UMass soil testing lab, they only charge $15 per sample for a routine soil analysis and they will email you your results within about 2 weeks.

John Wolfram wrote:
Getting your soil tested is dirt cheap (hehe) so I'd suggest collecting samples from a few locations the next time you are out at your property. At the UMass soil testing lab, they only charge $15 per sample for a routine soil analysis and they will email you your results within about 2 weeks.

Awesome...will definitely do that. Thanks!

Wow...a sweet place to start with. Congrats!

If you like Google Earth (or never used it)...here is a link on how to use it to plan permaculture zones.....so you can dream away while in NYC

http://www.almostafarmer.com/using-google-earth-to-zone-your-farm/

I am really looking forward to seeing you progress. Good luck and most of all...have fun.

Gaz

A couple of thoughts: If I understand correctly, above the pond is the northerly, elevated and most stony part of your property? It is also the area where you have the densest current population of trees.
You are contemplating clearing this area that already has established trees, in order to plant trees? It would seem to me that it might not be the most efficient approach to remove established trees in order to start morre trees, especially where those trees are growing in challenging ground.

I would definitely inventory the existing trees and determine what useful varieties you already have in place - and remember that useful encompasses much more than producing food for humans

I would plan out at least one swale on contour below the pond, to assure an even distribution of the overflow from the pond and the runoff down the slope in general.

My initial thoughts also include planning for food forest running more or less down the hill below the house and between the pond and the property line. I am thinking in terms of using the area below the pond and toward the roads as the "broadacre" garden, so to speak, an area for perennial vegetables, berries, annual veggies, flowers, herbs - an area not focused around "forest" design.

Peter Ellis wrote:A couple of thoughts: If I understand correctly, above the pond is the northerly, elevated and most stony part of your property? It is also the area where you have the densest current population of trees.
You are contemplating clearing this area that already has established trees, in order to plant trees? It would seem to me that it might not be the most efficient approach to remove established trees in order to start morre trees, especially where those trees are growing in challenging ground.

I would definitely inventory the existing trees and determine what useful varieties you already have in place - and remember that useful encompasses much more than producing food for humans

Point taken--would definitely make sure to ID first. I just had the impression that thinning of forested areas would likely be needed. Also I was thinking that the area directly north of the pond is prime for food-producing trees/other plants and non-food-producing trees might have to be sacrificed at some point. But feel free to change my mind.

Also, to be clear: the property slopes from NW to SE, with the steepest areas just above the house, just below the drive, and just below the pond (see yellow arrows). As for the rockiest terrain--I haven't established that yet.

Peter Ellis wrote:I would plan out at least one swale on contour below the pond, to assure an even distribution of the overflow from the pond and the runoff down the slope in general.

Yes, this is what I also envisioned. I am confused though as to whether it should be exactly on contour or slightly sloped to distribute the water from what is a fairly constant point source along the entire swale. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Peter Ellis wrote:My initial thoughts also include planning for food forest running more or less down the hill below the house and between the pond and the property line. I am thinking in terms of using the area below the pond and toward the roads as the "broadacre" garden, so to speak, an area for perennial vegetables, berries, annual veggies, flowers, herbs - an area not focused around "forest" design.

Yeah, I like this idea. I guess I need to read up a little more specifically on forest gardening. Also, much of what I've read seems to have had more of an emphasis on starting with fairly empty, open land. I haven't come across much that talks about converting semi-forested/overgrown land. That's a little bewildering. But again, maybe some forest garden reading is in order.

Thanks!

Thing about swales on contour is they are exactly the way to distribute water evenly across a slope. Water will move along the level swale, filling it all to the same level.
A sloped swale is for moving water to another location, rather than evenly distributing.

For the sloped swale, the benefit I've seen is if you want to move water from a valley to a ridge. Valleys will tend to have more water naturally, as you would expect. But you can move water from a high point on a valley to a low point on a ridge, then as the water drips into the soil it will even out the distribution more equally between the valley and ridge. This is something I plan to do on my own land next year, since the valleys are noticeably more luscious and wet than the ridges, even though it's all pretty moderate rolling hills.

If you don't see a need to redistribute, there probably isn't a benefit to a sloped swale.

* I'm not an expert on this, so please don't make any earthwork decisions based on what I said without further research.

Nice place, Ian. You can do a lot with the pond and slope. I know you still have a bit of observing to do in the spring. I am in a similar situation. Living in NYC with land in the catskills. What are your goals for the site? Agrotourism? Nursery?

Great looking place. Thought about using rocks and reflective surfaces to capture as much afternoon light as possible when needed. Pond would aid in that, focusing light back to dark slope. Maybe a shiny metal chicken coop to the east of the pond would work.

have you considered an arbor system for your sewage? lots of wet grasses can help purify water.

wish i could provide more advice, just starting myself.

good luck!

- Is our soil bad for growing (or do we not know enough)?

The Soil Surveys are only somewhat accurate - they were done a long time ago and both time and development can change soil. That isn't prime ag soil. When you walk around what do you see? Just rocks? Some topsoil? How much?

- We probably need to do a good deal of tree thinning/clearing--any advice for going about this?

Don't clear but definitely start opening up the understory to start being able to see the land. You would be surprised how plans can change once you see a new area of your land...

- Obviously we need to do a lot of observation before making any big decisions, but is there anything we should consider doing now?

See above. Where reasonable get the landscape open enough to see whats there. Setup taddle tales (light strips of material hanging from trees) to start studying wind direction. Start a journal and takes notes of plants, animals, weather, observations etc by date.

- How to deal with the lower half of the property which we likely won't have much time to tend to immediately. Just let it grow? Periodically chop and drop? Broadcast some beneficial seeds?

Tough call hehe 'cause I know the feeling of wanting to tend everywhere but not being able too. Start with Zone 0, 1, 2 first and work out from there unless there is a good reason otherwise. For example, if zone 4 and 5 present fire danger to your home get to some forest mgmt.

Garden wise, I would start with a few raised beds.  Be sure they are at least one foot deep. Have a design that will allow for it to become deeper (as you age, bending will be more of a challenge). Focus, initially, on a salad garden.  They are relatively easy to grow, and don't require a huge effort.  As you expand your gardening efforts, having  salad garden closer to the house will always be a good idea.