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Alternatives for fire brick, clay, perlite and steel pipes?  RSS feed

 
martin van baaren
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Hi all,

I would like to build my very own RMH and get it working before winter. The issue is that I'm quite remote and in a country that is made from granite.

Carry a decent amount of fire bricks on my back is doable over time but just wondering if someone may have solved this in a more practical way already.

As mentioned I do have access to unlimited amount of granite. Sand, stones, gravel and water is also available relatively close by. Clay may be harder to find.


I know granite stones can crack if heated up and cooled down a few times, but does it matter that much? I guess granite could be used as fire brick in an RMH, the question may be for how long compared to fire brick I guess.

Next question is about "Perlite". We do have something here that is called "Leca". Small pebbles full of air and which I wonder could be used instead of perlite?

I was actually thinking of making my own "fire bricks" of cement, Leca pebbles and gravel. Any objections?

Last, what about "How to make refractory brick (fire brick) with sodium silicate PART 2"?


Would Sodium Silicate be of use in the RMH business??

I'm asking because I have not much time to spend on transport and experimenting. Winter frost and first snow usually in October/November here. On the other hand I could just start over again next spring. But risking a heating breakdown during winter here should really be avoided.

I'm really impressed about the RMH, and the engagement on this forum not the least. Very inspiring.
Any input is highly appreciated.

Regards,
Martin

 
allen lumley
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Martin van barren : Location, Location, Location ! we want to find out if you have any near neighbors with Rocket MassHeater RMH or Cob Experience !

Check out the Universal welcome Link below :


http://www.permies.com/t/43625/introductions/Universal


Note that this linked thread has other links !

LECA stands for Light Expanded Clay Aggregate, and it is made by firing at about 1200º Centigrade ! I have no experience with this material, its not
common here - Lets let others chime in on this

While there are areas where ancient glaciers scrubbed away all the clay, Good clay is usually a few miles away if not directly under your feet, w/o
Clay you cant make cob ! Find your local ceramist / potter and explain what you are doing !

We have a problem with Any use of Portland Cement near the core of Your Rocket as it can not take the heat and will disintegrate !

Interestingly when you use Sodium or Potassium silicate as the binder you can use portland cement as a filler to hold things together until you fire
your core ! I would much rather use clay, it comes in similar sized and priced sacks- or free out of the ground !

After you figure out how to run your horizontal pipes through your thermal mass and cover them with Cob you want to load up your thermal mass with
lots of heavy dense rock to both store and transport the heat energy through your Thermal mass The More rock you use the less Cob you will have to
make ! In that job granite is superior to cob, you want to use just enough cob to fill al voids as any trapped air is insulating just the opposite of what
you Need .

This is where I recommend that you goto Rocketstoves.com to download your copy of Ianto Evans book rocket mass heaters this will allow you
to come back here knowing that you are using the same terms to describe the same parts, and their sizes , shapes, and orientation to them selves each
other and the whole !

All The math you will need is 4th 5th Grade stuff, and anyone that wants too can wrap their head around it ! This is NOT an intellectual '' O.K. Got it ''
thing you will have to understand it well enough to explain it to your grandmother !

Come back here with All your questions If their is a RMH in your future we will help you build it ! Big AL
 
Satamax Antone
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Martin, your leca seems to be expanded clay. Good enough for the insulation of the rocket core and heat riser. May be mixed with some fireclay, and surounded by contained rockwool. For example. May be lining the feed and burn tunnel with firebrick splits. Tho, i would advise you to build a batch rocket instead of a J tube, looking at your location.

Granite cab be used in the mass, and you can do ramed earth mortar between the pieces of granite. If you can find some not far, i'm sure quartzite should hold for a while in a rocket.

Sodium silicate

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1269/karls-geopolymer-experiments

 
martin van baaren
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allen lumley wrote:Martin van barren : Location, Location, Location !


Hi Al! I'm in southern Norway. Sorry, I only see RMH's at the moment, will go and present myself as soon as brain capacity allows.

And yes clay should be around not too far away. Just right now the to-do list is a bit overwhelming and orientating myself towards an as practically as possible approach that should at least survive 1 winter.

allen lumley wrote:We have a problem with Any use of Portland Cement near the core of Your Rocket as it can not take the heat and will disintegrate !

Then I should drop any solution based on Portland cement in/near core, including rocks and which would need concrete for binding together. I should look for bags of clay instead to make brick then, and maybe mix in either Leca or Perlite in the rocket bricks. Well, need to find out if this is an option at all.
I may as well end up with buying the brickz and carry them up.

allen lumley wrote:If their is a RMH in your future we will help you build it

I'll give you a call when it's time to dig for clay and carry buckets around in mountainous terrain

I go and download that book. Thanks so far!

Martin




 
martin van baaren
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Satamax Antone wrote:Martin, your leca seems to be expanded clay. Good enough for the insulation of the rocket core and heat riser. May be mixed with some fireclay, and surounded by contained rockwool. For example.

Yes LECA may be a suitable component in RMH design, I thought so too. I found out Perlite is available here too so that would be another possible "ingredient" for me. Since LECA is very light it's thermal capacity will be low and with that I'd still be left with carrying lots of heavy loads around..

Satamax Antone wrote: lining the feed and burn tunnel with firebrick splits. Tho, i would advise you to build a batch rocket instead of a J tube, looking at your location.

Firebrick lining would open for more use of on-site rock/sand/gravel/+ Portland cement I suppose.

I keep looking for time and energy saving possibilities. Therefore the focus on the on-sight production of firebrick and other components. There's no way to transport by car and so I need to find clay close by relatively quickly. If there isn't any then I better start carrying up Portland cement and firebrick.

Satamax Antone wrote:Granite cab be used in the mass, and you can do ramed earth mortar between the pieces of granite. If you can find some not far, i'm sure quartzite should hold for a while in a rocket.

Good!
Still reading through the info in your link and looking for chemical binders/"cement" that could be of importance for remote RMH's.


I just came across some interesting RMH hybrid. It may be a solution for me as I do not necessarily depend on putting up a large much-to-heat-up dwelling before winter.
Please let me know if anyone here has experience with use of this design:


Another solution would be to carry up a wood stove (in parts), and maybe use it as a RMH component later on. More money needed then, and gather and cut a lot more firewood...


 
allen lumley
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Martin V.B. ; Please no Portland based cement in your construction, ban it from your work site !

Watch out ! Use extreme caution especially with U-Tube Videos of Rocket Mass Heaters There are 'Flaming Units of Death' out there-
and no way for us to remove or block them!

The U-Tube RMH video you picked is much too unnecessarily complicated and appears to use non standard sized bricks !
( I have no idea what is standard for your location ! )

I am trying to find a safe simple build that lends itself to your remote location build !

My fast recommendation is a 6'' inside diameter RMH system with a j-tube feed system, it is a much easier build and you have a
much more forgiving RMH than if you went high tech with a "Batch' RMH that has critical gap tolerance issues that don't exist in a
J-style 6'' RMH !

By now you should be mostly through your 1st reading of 'The Book " don't be afraid to come back here often, and remember you
don't really own a subject until you can explain it to your grand mother !

Also think about getting started on getting your wood down split and undercover ! Your RMH likes very dry small fine split wood!

For the Good of the Crafts Big AL
 
allen lumley
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Martin V.B. : Not my 1st choice more like my fallback set of videos Link Below :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30rPCRB5e-s&list=PL0bZy202ImXP7NpLUJMtKJOjpjPPv59b-

Please note that the entire 1st course of bricks is because this is being build over a pre-existing wood floor
and trusts !

A different Technique is used over Earth or concrete floors For the Crafts ! Big AL


 
martin van baaren
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allen lumley wrote:Watch out ! Use extreme caution especially with U-Tube Videos of Rocket Mass Heaters There are 'Flaming Units of Death' out there-
and no way for us to remove or block them!

The U-Tube RMH video you picked is much too unnecessarily complicated and appears to use non standard sized bricks !
( I have no idea what is standard for your location ! )


Yes Al I do see "Pekka's" hybrid RMH only as a "prototype with potential" for now. There's more work to be done on that one but I find the test firing promising. I may have time to experiment with it as I seem to need to get the fire bricks up there anyway.

allen lumley wrote:I am trying to find a safe simple build that lends itself to your remote location build !

Highly appreciated, thanks!
Btw I made an attempt to introduce myself at the welcome department. May help dialogue here. I've been off grid for 7 years. Some call me martin in the woods. Forced back to "civilization" because of an accident.

I don't have the book yet, sorry. I expect incoming money tomorrow and will be reading by tomorrow afternoon I hope.

allen lumley wrote:remember you don't really own a subject until you can explain it to your grand mother !

Yup this is exactly how I suspect this matter has to be approached. A good degree of established know-how should be applied. If you don't then do not rely on this technology for survival purposes. Totally agreed.

Regarding the demo video in your last reply; I wondered if the common 55 gallon barrel design could be scaled down somehow. It's probably all in the book but I may not be able to sleep tonight. Would be great to know right now

Martin

 
allen lumley
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Martin V.B. : A couple of things, I have been exposed to varies Foreign Exchange students and find that even before prep schools for collage 10th year
Foreign students are better prepared for '' Higher education'' Which brings me to - all the math needed is elementary or 4th 5th grade stuff that will
come right back to you !

For the Magic that happens at the barrel (with a final Freaky hot and clean burn) A certain amount of heat energy must be she'd off of the barrel.
It is the much cooler / denser and now heavier gases sinking towards the bottom of the Barrel that promotes the sideways flow of still relatively hot
gases 30' horizontally through our Thermal Mass

If we have two Rocket Mass Heaters One with a 55 gal drum and one with a 30 gallon drum - they both must shed the same amount of heat energy to
create this sideways flow AND Counter intuitively this means that the smaller metal drum MUST with a smaller Surface area radiate its heat off at a
Higher Temperature than the larger drum will a higher surface area to radiate heat off of

There are several variables, think of a RMH as being a poor mans version of a Scandinavian Masonry stove, The Finns for instance have a great history
with a certain counter-flow Masonry build type with a heavily enameled metal Shell ! Most of the parts of one can be found on the other ! We are
merely building on the cheap -dont worry about the barrels longevity you will get 20 years out of it easily! For the good of the craft! Big AL

late note/link :


http://richsoil.com/annex-plans.php


This is automatically offered to you as a perk for being a member, when you sign up you get presents and it isn't even your birthday ! A. L.
 
martin van baaren
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Lucky there, actually I do have birthday within the next 24 hours. Thanks for present anyway

I suppose you're trying to tell me that a 30gal barrel RMH design will be harder to lit than a 50gal -which would be bad news.

I will need a wife or a donkey I'm afraid. I have nothing against women nor donkeys btw.

Martin
 
allen lumley
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Martin V.B.: Part of the math you will soon be immersed in deals with being able to ''Prove '' on paper that you have a Constant Cross-Sectional Area, or
Constant C.S.A. to make sure that the flow of air through the J-Bend, Barrel, and The Horizontal piping of the Thermal Mass are sufficient for adequate amounts
of combustion air!

A Few of the common pinch points are 1 ) The gap between the Top of the first vertical chimney the Heat Riser, and the underside of the Barrel 1.5'' - 2''

and 2 ) The amount of gap between the outside diameter (which is heavily wrapped in insulation) and the inside of the barrel -again 1.5'' to 2''

3 ) creation of a large enough channel at the bottom of the barrel where the falling column of hot exhaust gases turn at right angles to flow horizontally through

the horizontal pipes of the Thermal bench !


Again the smaller barrel will actually shed its heat at a higher temperature and you must protect the exposures from that heat load and you will be limited by
how close you can COMFORTABLY get to the barrel !

Think like Fire ! Flow like a Gas ! Don't be a Marshmallow ! As always your comments and questions are solicited and welcome Big AL
 
martin van baaren
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I knew it! Now I can sleep.
Thanks Al for taking the time! I be back later.

Martin
 
allen lumley
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Martin V.B. : This is a link to a specialty use of a rocket mass heater RMH, as created I think that they were/are expecting a total useful lifespan of
several months ! This is partially due to materials used and a limited amount of overhead cover !

Link below !


http://www.permies.com/t/47829/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mass-Brooder

For the good of the craft ! Big AL















 
martin van baaren
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Al, you probably foresee the same trouble as I did this morning.

I wanted a decent RMH before xmas but realism usually gets a hold of me in time. Logistics and the fact that I'm alone made me see I have to drop it - it be an ordinary wood stove in a simple shelter for now.

I will need to find another solution for getting sprouts and micro greens to thrive in the winter months.


I will dream on and be on the outlook for clay and other materials and parts when there is time and opportunities. And If the gods will it I may have some pictures to offer of my fire-works before the end of 2016.
This rocket mass heater will not be hurried in any way..

 
allen lumley
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M.V.B. : While the entire site I am sending you to is rife with lots of practical information and opportunities to spend money I am sending you there specifically to scroll down
to the Parts and Accessories Section and start an active checklist that allows you to determine you have the minimum amount of materials and supplies to be absolutely ready
for your earliest practice build - which as it consists only of the rockets J-Bend section should be doable by you in a couple of weeks or less !

While I will admit that your personal situation with hauling ALL Materials to a remote location will create challenges - We have 70 # Females who have transported nearly all
of the materials into the Hindi-kush and have now been living with a working RMH through more than one Himalayan Winter !

Link below :

http://www.ernieanderica.info/shop

For the good of the Crafts ! Big AL




 
martin van baaren
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allen lumley wrote:Himalayan Winter

Ah OK, you tried to warn me against in-a hurry constructions with that chicken brooder example. But no need to give up this easy I see..

And not that its all that important but Himalayan winters are not comparable to where I am. I doubt those women moved and built homes above 10.000 ft altitude, and even if they did so then still the sun warms all year long overthere and "winters" are rather short. Can be quite frosty but the amounts of snow are to live with as I do remember the Himalayas.
That said, Himalayan ladies are tough! I've done quite some tracking in the Himalayas back in the eighties. They know how to use yaks too.
Well don't misunderstand, it may be more impressive than I can imagine right now. I'd like to learn more about this particular project.
My guess is they started of in springtime.

I've been doing construction work all my life. I like it and masonry is part of my background. I will have the money for the materials/parts that need to be bought and can get them to the site. Would take me less than 2 weeks all together with some planning and time on my hands, so far NP.

I just got too many things to take care of right now. Work, family (while I'm in the neighborhood, so to speak), prepping, building shelter etc.
Right now I'm busy in the evenings with packing 200 pounds of grains in vacuum sealed mylar bags. Beans and other seeds next. Next is transport and storage of supplies, firewood, etc. There's no end to it.
I don't know when things calm down, probably not before around the middle of September. I depend on civilization summertime for work and income. I will camp out and don't have apartment from Aug 1. -to save money so I can get to the dentist....

Depending on how quick I get done with everything, weather conditions etc, I may manage to get some sort of RMH running before xmas anyway. It's just not the only thing that has to fall in place right now and this is not the time to plan on basis of too many uncertainties.
With a yak or/and some Himalayan woman I might have a chance

Btw I decided to get the real book instead as I will be without electricity for the most and won't be able to read any pdf's..

I may contact Ernie&Erica for advice on a guaranteed working but scaled down 20-30 gallon barrel model because I simply can't spend more time on schooling myself on this subject for now. I've learned a bunch though in the last couple of days - most importantly that RMH constructions based on guestimations is not an option for people in my situation..

As you may have noticed from my post at the welcome sub forum, you don't really need a lot of heating in these type of homes because of all of the insulation, including 3-6+ feet of snow. The balance between the need for heating and cooking could perhaps be solved by a simple rocket stove connected to the RMH chimney.

All in all, very interesting times ahead.

Martin
 
allen lumley
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M.V.B. : OK, some generalities first and then tighten things up a bit ! A true rocket stove as originally designed- was/is for outdoor use only, indoors we
often have problems with the attached chimney not drawing adequately. The most used work around is to use this style on a patio and add a Fume hood
type arraignment over the top !

Nether the Rocket Stove, or the rocket mass heater RMH, should ever share a chimney with another appliance, the number of problems are enormous,
and all of them are related to health and safety.

This is a characteristic of the R.S. and the RMH that becomes even more pronounced with multi story dwellings.

I'm afraid that you missed my point about barrel size. Again if we could build 2 RMHs identically with the only difference in construction being Barrel size
Both of the Barrels acting as heat exchangers MUST Radiate the same amount of Heat Energy the smaller barrel with less surface area Must Radiate its
Heat Energy at a higher Temperature than the 55 gal barrel.

This is the reason why when your families 3 year old is tired and wants up in your lap they are such a good cuddle! With a Smaller Surface Area to Mass
ratio they radiate off the extra heat energy at a higher temperature in order to maintain their normal temps 98.6ºƒ–ish

While a smallish unit is normally a plus in Construction and Use, the higher Temperatures radiating off of the barrel will require MORE space for comfort
and safety. Add to this the increasing difficulty to create a good working, well build RMH smaller than 6'' -especially as a first build- !

The goal with every RMH is to trade a couple of hours of attention to your RMH for 24 hrs or longer of heat radiating from the Core of the Thermal Bench,
when the amount of heat radiated off of the mass must be moderated- throw rugs and insulating quilts placed on the Thermal Mass save the heat within
the core for latter use !

Hopefully this fills a few gaps in your understanding and your plans will work as you make further discoveries ! For the Good of the Craft ! Big AL

 
martin van baaren
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Yes I guess it's best to not connect any additional stoves to the RMH chimney.

allen lumley wrote:I'm afraid that you missed my point about barrel size


Well, more or less was not ready for accepting the RMH tech depending on specifically 55 gallon sized magic barrels to get it to run properly. You had not been giving a direct answer on the question of scaling down, or up for that matter.
My thinking is what are we going to do when we run out of 55gal barrels. Will that be the end of RM Heating? Of course not. You'll find a way around whatever the problem is that fire has with smaller/bigger barrels.

allen lumley wrote:While a smallish unit is normally a plus in Construction and Use, the higher Temperatures radiating off of the barrel will require MORE space for comfort and safety.

Although I don't understand the mechanics behind this yet I can accept it to be like that. I never said magic barrels don't exist!

allen lumley wrote:Add to this the increasing difficulty to create a good working, well build RMH smaller than 6'' -especially as a first build- !

Also this I will have to crack my brain over at a later date. But I'll be happy to push a size 55 up the mountain if that's just how it is. NP

Allen, may I ask you do you have a RMH in your dwelling?

Martin

 
allen lumley
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Martin : I am in the property management business - which actually means I am the guy that gets to climb out of a warm bed at @ am and climb up on a
roof the nail down a tarp to the roof after storm damage ! So yes, a couple of properties !

Having said yes, I am presently living rent free above a laundromat and both my heat and hot water are included !

My wife and I are basically 3 season campers and have gravitated to winter camping in the deep south where the weather suits our clothes and am helping
to spread the Joy of Rocketry There !

I would sooner expect that Ships will disappear from off of the worlds oceans than that we will run out of 55 gal drums ! Yes there are other options for
heat exchanges, our job is to make sure that you get a successful build your very 1st time, we ARE living in very interesting times and the RMH is after a
rather long period of stagnation once again evolving and there are many proponents of some rather esoteric and quite fussy Toys that are best used by
those fellow members with both experience in multiple builds, and in tending to their Rockets Needs !
 
martin van baaren
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allen lumley wrote: Yes there are other options for heat exchanges, our job is to make sure that you get a successful build your very 1st time,

Your point(s) finally came across Allen. Going for that this is the best compromise.

RMH book is on the way. Some more questions may pop up before I go offline around Aug 1 - the question of how much fireclay to get up is the most pressing right now, just in case there isn't any clay to be found on site in time. I need to find out if it's sold here locally. I've never even heard of it.

I did not see/read the other posts in other topics regarding the same subjects before now. Thanks for patiently repeating the "massage"! If I survive the coming winter it be my turn to spread the details

Martin
 
Glenn Herbert
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Hi Martin!
In regards to barrel size, it's not so much that a smaller barrel must radiate the same amount of heat as a large barrel, as that a small barrel will still be radiating at higher temperature when the gases get to its base than a large barrel will do. Think of it as if the small barrel is the top 2/3 of a large barrel. A small barrel (in the same system) will radiate less total heat than a large barrel, and the gases will still be hotter by the time they move into the thermal mass than with a large barrel.

That said, a 6" J-tube RMH with a 30ish gallon barrel is a tested and proven arrangement when done according to specs. A 4" system is trickier to make properly and is best left to experts; besides, a 4" system only gives less than half the heat of a 6" system, which gives something like half the heat of an 8" system. As a RMH stores much of its heat output for slow release (especially with a smaller barrel), you can handle an oversized system by just running it less often, unlike a woodstove which becomes inefficient and dangerous (creosote buildup) when you run it in a space smaller than it is designed for.

A smaller barrel will require more clearance to combustibles than a large one, but its smaller diameter may mean that it will fit in a small space easier.
 
martin van baaren
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Thanks for additional explanation Glenn.

The challenge here was finding a balance between energy output, space that needs to be heated up, living space to be built, the need for cooking -and also growing food during 5+ months winter, transport, availability of on-site materials, and available time before winter kicks in.
Money is another factor.

It is now clear that I would have to build a bigger dwelling in order to not have the whole thing getting in the way rather than being a fire and forget solution. A smaller barrel will not eliminate the need for more space as much as I thought it could.
Another solution could be an additional outdoor rocket stove for cooking, heating water etc, and use the RMH mainly for heating and stable temperature.

As for the bigger dwelling to be built as I had originally planned, I could do that in stages. For instance it would not need to be insulated that well as long as I have the RMH in place and running.

Before anything else I'll make sure I have plenty of firewood and a wood stove at hand. I had hoped to get around that but not taking the chance.

Also still open for other solutions than the barrel/bell type mass heater if there turn out to be any. Between my ears the potential of rocketry is barely 2 weeks old.
I only knew that I wanted one

Martin
 
Glenn Herbert
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In a cold dark winter climate where heat will be needed around the clock for weeks or months on end, you would probably do well with a masonry bell with J-tube inside it, skipping the barrel altogether. This could be 2 1/2 to 3 feet square by 5 or 6 feet high, larger if you want to heat a good sized dwelling eventually. The masonry would not require the same clearances as a metal barrel (or a woodstove). This option would require a separate cooking stove, maybe a rocket stove outside or in a partially enclosed porch. Integrating cooking surfaces with a bell would be an advanced project, to be studied and experimented with before final building.

You could use granite for the bell, depending on your masonry experience. How much experience do you have? You would want to be sure that you would not have leaks from the bell that would let flue gases into your room. It might be practical to build a smallish bell with cob mortar at first, hone your skill, and rebuild to a final design later.
 
martin van baaren
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Glenn Herbert wrote:You could use granite for the bell, depending on your masonry experience. How much experience do you have? You would want to be sure that you would not have leaks from the bell that would let flue gases into your room. It might be practical to build a smallish bell with cob mortar at first, hone your skill, and rebuild to a final design later.

Good! I'm sort of a possibilities person

I came across this masonry RMH:

He's giving away the dimensions in the video so you would not need to spend the $35.

Should be possible to put a steel plate on top of a masonry bell?

The bell would need to be pretty air tight I guess yes. My masonry skills are good. I would very much like to use granite where possible as that is what I have laying around everywhere.

I also would like to have any additional heating pipes under the floor instead of in a bench. I'm used to store about everything I own under the bed. For saving space.

This one may be another possible solution. Doesn't look like a rocket to me but the design may be possible to adapt somehow.

Anyway with an ordinary wood stove on site I can sort of relax and get creative.

Thanks.
 
allen lumley
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Martin sending you a P.M. ! Big AL
 
Glenn Herbert
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The picture you posted looks just like the layout I was suggesting. If short enough, or set into the floor, or an elevated landing built, you could put a steel plate on top for cooking.

The Aprovecho design is nice, but a masonry heater and not a rocket mass heater. I see a detail that I'm surprised at from Aprovecho: the hot water tube is right in the firebox, which will rob heat from the fire before it is done burning, reducing combustion efficiency and possibly completeness. Masonry heaters are supposed to be more exacting in all their dimensions and details than the RMH.

You can look at Donkey's forum (donkey32.proboards.com) for detailed discussions of bells and how to size them. As long as you follow some minimum requirements they are quite flexible.
 
Glenn Herbert
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You would not (necessarily) add any bench run to a bell-style RMH. A bell can be sized to take all of the heat output of the J-tube. From the bottom side of the bell you would go straight up the chimney.
 
allen lumley
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Martin +-: A few words on separating possibly good U-Tube videos from Bad ! 1) always look for recent activity, and more than one video. L@@K at the comments

section, is he getting new posts and frequently, and does he answer all posts or ignore most and only cherry pick the ones he wants to answer ! Does he give answers

that get feedback that says the question was answered , How often !

If He has not posted lately generally he has discovered problems with his unit, and rather than admit that he has a problem he stops answering ANY of the comments on
his site or blocking negative comments or All comments

No recent comments he is chasing the newest shiny Babble ! For the Good of the Craft ! Big AL
 
martin van baaren
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Hi Allen, thanks for your concerns.

As a matter of fact I would expect you or other experienced rocketeers to get out here and explain exactly why something is likely to fail.

That said, I have not decided on any stove, nor trust anyone blindly. I will have a wood stove available and time on my hands and have always appreciated working with fire.

Martin
 
Satamax Antone
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martin van baaren wrote:
Should be possible to put a steel plate on top of a masonry bell?

Thanks.



A safe option is to find a metal box, of which the top will act as a cooking plate. And then surround the sides with mass. An example from Thomas Runino.

http://www.permies.com/forums/posts/list/46284#374581

There isn't much mass tho.


But what you are describing has been done

http://donkey32.proboards.com/post/16159/thread

http://www.ecologieforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4610


Then Peter's version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFchLpXIbTw

Vortex's stove, tho, not a real rocket i'd say. The other ones above are "batch rockets" Invented by donkey and Canyon, and developped, refined by Peter van den Berg.

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/703/vortex-stove

This one is called a rocket, tho i'm not too comfy with it. Despite being the work of Matthew Walker.

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1624/walker-riser-less-core

My latest one.

http://www.permies.com/t/35569/rocket-stoves/Range-retrofit

JohndePew latest experiment based on one of my ideas

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1568/batch-cooker Interesting pic on page two.

And for the interest of what is possible, a pure cooking rocket by tallgrass.

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1710/horizontal-rocket-powered-insulated-cookstove


Hope this can give you ideas.

 
martin van baaren
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Satamax Antone wrote:And for the interest of what is possible, a pure cooking rocket by tallgrass.
http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1710/horizontal-rocket-powered-insulated-cookstove
Hope this can give you ideas.

Sure does Santamax, thanks a bunch!

This simplest setup speaks the most to my imagination.

As it's now you probably should not fall asleep next to it if no sufficient ventilation in the room.
Some modifications of the cooking plate could resolve this..


I would need to include metal for some immediate heat radiation, that's a basic cold winter requirement. Maybe also some glass for additional light.

Together with the other examples you post this goes in the direction of what I need. Simplicity, compact, remote location, heat storage, cooking, clean burn, little firewood....

I will talk to tallgrass. His secondary air intake must be a winner. Even I can see dat!
 
martin van baaren
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martin van baaren wrote:As it's now you probably should not fall asleep next to it if no sufficient ventilation in the room.
Some modifications of the cooking plate could resolve this.

Well, as he says himself it looks in fact quite promising as it is:

Testing the cooker. Even with the mix fresh and wet applied around the tea kettle, you can see the burn is complete combustion. There was smoke for only about 25 seconds upon first lighting the fire, then the draw became smooth and the smoke disappeared. Here I am venting the exhaust gasses straight into the room, and the exhaust port is clean and clear.


...not saying good ventilation isn't necessary.

 
martin van baaren
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Satamax Antone wrote:http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/1568/batch-cooker Interesting pic on page two.

Must be this one :

I'm thinking a batch box would fit in well here.

This one is considered too experimental for indoor use I guess, but it seems to run just fine:




 
Satamax Antone
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The one from JohnDePew, on page 2, based on an idea i had, is a very special beast.

It's based on Peter's Gathering batch rocket, which has been done last year.


Peter had a piece of glass on top of the firebox, and had stated few times, that the firebox didn't need to be insulated that much!


It didn't take me long to see the breach. I asked him if a cooking plate could be fitted on top of the firebox, and the reply was kindof yes. But he wasn't a believer. I didn't have time for more than drawing it. And john, in anguish to know the result kindly tested it.


It seems to work.

It has an advantage to me, that is, it doesn't need to have a short heat riser, to accomodate the cooking top. And that's good for a batch rocket, because they are more sensitive beasts than J tubes.


John seems to say it's perfectly adequate for cooking. I will most certainly build up on that. Some idea is ramping up in my mind. And i hope the results will be posted by november.
 
martin van baaren
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I think I did see the "Peter's Gathering batch rocket" on youtube. Did see something that looked a bit too violent to have inside a building

Satamax Antone wrote:Some idea is ramping up in my mind. And i hope the results will be posted by november.

Interesting. I'll buy your plans if you can make it before november
I currently don't have the time and working space to start doing anything. Frustrating.

I'm reading up on the Batch box pricipal. I see this is a bit more flexible when it comes to size. It can be scaled down to a 3" system if I understand correctly and which would be the best for for heating up smaller spaces I guess. And also physically fit into small spaces and stoves.

I think the smallest 3" could be compatible with the tallgrass design. The horizontal sortof Lorane bell may not be the best solution when it comes to output, clean burning and fuel use. But I can compromise a bit on that.

I would then have an additional cooking plate over the batch box as you suggested. Less insulation, if any at all, for heat storage. And being able to shut off the thing and transport heat out the building the shortest possible way. I think the heat from the cooking plates and coming out of the batch box door could be sufficient for radiant heat.

Rocketry is quite a subject after all. Takes time sorting out the info. But this is whats ramping up overhere right now. Keeps me awake at night lol.



 
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