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Saving the World

 
Amit Enventres
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So, now that I've achieved or close enough to throw a stone at, my current goals that lasted 6 years, I'm trying to set my next big horizon. So, I went to good old holistic farm planning stuff from college. A cheesy but useful class.

The thing is, I now see the world as totally manipulatable, with enough time, and me being part of that world being also able to be manipulated by others. So, now being I'm one of a whole, I keep running on circles as to what is the goal.

I am prone to saying I'm saving the world, but really, earth will exist even if nucs go off and life will regenerate eventually, probably, without people. So it's not the earth I'm saving.

I don't like the current system of life I live in. I find it enslaving, though but the worst thing ever. But, it's not the current system.

So it's some other ideal I want to impinge on others, which makes me a selfish a-hole. So, that's no good. Therefore, I think it's time I start brain storming with others as to what everyone's goals for the world are, their ideals of what it should be, and then I can see how to set a goal where I won't be a complete a-hole, at least not unintentionally. So, I know I'm opening a can of worms here (sorry Paul and team, kill it if you must), and I figure it will be a biased can of worms, but I want to start some where.

So, what is your ideal world? Please everyone be nice!

Thanks!!!
 
Travis Johnson
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If everyone loved God with all their hearts...

Treating others as if they would treat themselves.

That would go a VERY long ways.
 
Amit Enventres
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That's good, very nice thoughts. But, I want to stretch them a bit. But first, my ideal is a world without species destruction, people are free to live as they choose with subsistence available, communally run, but technology available and growing.

So, do unto others as you want done unto yourself, good rule, but let's expound. Does that mean if I like getting fish flavored ice cream, I should give some to you?

As for a permaculture world with people living in gardens, what if someone doesn't want to live in a garden? Does the "do unto others " trump that?

Not trying to be difficult.

Thanks!
 
Bryant RedHawk
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Wow Amit, rather heavy subject but also timely I think.

These are my thoughts on this subject.

1) there never has been nor ever will be a Eutopia. The best we can hope for is for all people to accept that they are different but at the same time all One People.
    Even that is nearly impossible to achieve given the nature of the human beast.

2) Our Earth Mother will be here millennia after humans have died out, she will be better off for that extinction given the current way humans treat her.

3) Nothing here (on Earth) is permanent, change is constant.  Humans and all other living things are only able to stay around as long as they can adapt. (the cockroach is perhaps the most adaptable critter on the planet and will be here long after the last human ceases to exist)

4) We are the care takers, so it is our responsibility to help mother earth rather than destroy her, regardless of our greedy nature, otherwise we will no longer be able to adapt and thus go extinct. (humans for the most part do not understand this and that will be their doom)

5) Even though most (if not all) religions tell the followers that they should take care of others less fortunate than themselves, few if any do so.

I have no goals for the world, I have goals for how I can help the earth mother live and thrive. I have goals for how to best live with as little negative impact both on the earth mother and other humans as possible.
I have no religion, I am a spiritual person as are my people, we have always understood our role and responsibility to the earth mother and all living things, animal, plant, rock, water, fire, sky, all are living spirits.


 
Travis Johnson
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Amit Enventres wrote:That's good, very nice thoughts. But, I want to stretch them a bit. But first, my ideal is a world without species destruction, people are free to live as they choose with subsistence available, communally run, but technology available and growing.

So, do unto others as you want done unto yourself, good rule, but let's expound. Does that mean if I like getting fish flavored ice cream, I should give some to you?

As for a permaculture world with people living in gardens, what if someone doesn't want to live in a garden? Does the "do unto others " trump that?

Not trying to be difficult.

Thanks!


The simplicity of it all is what makes the statement brilliant.

As for the fish flavored ice cream, if you truly loved it, then don't you think you owe it to your friends and neighbors to offer that insight to them? Of course they have the right to refuse, of which the statement means you don't try and cram it down their throat, but you do politely offer your suggestion of trying it; or better,  a bowl full, etc. Isn't that what we do with Permiculture; offer an alternative to others? I remember hearing about bacon flavored ice cream, two unlike things, but the brilliance of it all: BACON and ICE CREAM.

As for your garden question, I fail to see the relevance. It is all about checking your ego at the door. It does not mean at every opportunity you roll over and get walked on because...if everyone was abiding by this mantra, they would not want to stomp all over you because that is not how THEY would want to be treated.

Peace will never happen, there will always be conflict in the world, but the more I try and apply this in my own life, the easier life is. It is against the general nature of mans will, but when I bristle inside and attempt to get MY WAY, conflict inevitably erupts. But then again, this is circular, because at that moment, I am not exactly abiding by rule number one am I?



 
Tyler Ludens
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The reason I deleted my previous posts is because I realised I did not understand the purpose of this thread.  The question is "what is your ideal world?"  So I tried to answer and then was questioned as if the original question had been "What is the ideal world for everyone?"

I can't answer the question "What is the ideal world for everyone?" Only the ideal world for me, as I understand things.  And maybe I am still not understanding the purpose of this thread, so I do not know how to respond to it.  Could the OP clarify what is the purpose?  What information they are trying to obtain?  Thanks.

Here's a talk by toby hemenway with which I agree:

Toby Hemenway - How Permaculture Can Save Humanity and the Earth, but Not Civilization

 
Joseph Lofthouse
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Save the world eh? I gave up on that decades ago. These days I'm content to be a primate. To enjoy the movements, foods, smells, sensations, sights, emotions, comradery, and touches that primates enjoy. My intent is to live for an indeterminate amount of time, and then to die and feed the animals and microbes. In the meantime, I'll nourish plenty of microbes, and grow some food to feed humans and other animals. I have been disintermediating my life for decades, and I expect that trend will continue, and that I'll get better at it as I go along. My highest spiritual and physical aspiration is to "Leave other people the hell alone." My definition of people includes my non-human and non-animate kin.

And grow some squash.



grow-squash.jpg
[Thumbnail for grow-squash.jpg]
Primate pleasures...
 
Amit Enventres
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Thanks all!
The topic is what's your ideal world. I am compiling what I find from as many people as I can to see what people want. It's pretty interesting and you are welcome to also compile and share if you ask others the question too. Kids answers count. I have become infatuated now that I've started doing this. So many interesting answers.

What I'm reading, I will try to summarize to this point, please correct me if I get it wrong. 

Love God. Is this God as each person describes God or a particular view of God?

Some are most interested in Do unto others the kindnesses you want done to yourself, but don't do unto others as you don't want done unto yourself. I.e. respect eachother's free will. One said conflict is okay, as long as there's also this basic principle.

Protect/grow mother earth. Live in a permaculture garden.

Live life as a human being.

I have to watch that one of Hemingway's video, then I will try to summarize that too.

What I compiled today from people I talked to is:
-shorter work week, more weekend.
-subsistence socialism so people can feel more free to do a job they want or atleast stay out of the way of those trying to do their job and reduce workplace stress.
-Live in the wild, like Tarzan.
-Live with modern conveniences in a hut in the wild, but with people understanding and respecting eachother's uniqueness.
-No more wars x2.
-People praying more.
- living in a garden of Eden.

 
Joseph Lofthouse
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Amit Enventres wrote:Live life as a human being.


I had meant to convey the meaning, "Live life as an animal, that happens to also be a primate."

 
David Livingston
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What's my ideal world ?
About 100m outside my front door after that it starts going less than optimum

David

As for what I do to make the world better -I help out on Permies
 
Amit Enventres
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This is excellent. I have polled about 27 people so far and will continue. Of the 27 people, 26 can live compatibly on the same planet. The 1 who can't is because of wanting to be a hermit, but with enough miles between her and civilization she says she'll be okay living in the same world. *phwew* crisis averted.

Anyway, so far these are the things people say:
They want a world where people respect each other and their individuality.
The do unto others as you want done onto yourself thing comes up a lot, each with their own little twist: justice, right compensation, people not mooching, no greed or corruption, of course all these things need further explanation, but we'll say "fair law."
People are allowed to freely choose and pursue the type of work they want. Some say this could be more of an option with a subsistence safety net, others disagree.
Several mention more prayer or communities focused on God.
Almost all say they want more forest, or a garden of Eden sort of thing. Some include specifics like clean air and water, or places to adventure and live as "Tarzan".
Everyone wants peace and cooperation, no fighting, though arguments and disagreements are allowed.
Some are more into cooperation and some more into individualization. One even wants a private Island and dinosaurs.
Most want to change the work-life balance in favor of more life and less work, or to be specific, less work they don't enjoy.
Some also would be fully happy to be rich, some want to work for their resources to get there. No one said poor, injured, or hungry.

So far the contradictions in the ideal world is to me, surprisingly low. The methods to get there, however, are quite varied and most people are quite adamant at their method, readily explaining how it would improve the world.

The other few ubiquitous responses so far are:

1. People say it's a tough question they have to think about.
2. People say that they don't believe it's possible to achieve.

If you all talk to others, try asking them the question and reporting back. The more different they are from you, the better, as long as they will give an honest response.

In holistic farm planning, you have to define what your objective is for the "Whole under management", then your resource base and all that, so this is all part of defining the objective. (Or atleast, this is how I see it). So, the more responses, the better the definition will be. I am thinking about making an online pole, but I want to try and make it "incorruptible" because people can get silly with this sort of thing, but I'm not sure how.
 
Todd Parr
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Joseph's answer is very near a parallel to mine.  Mostly, I want to be left alone on my land to do what I want and have no one bother me.  My rule for the way I would like life to be is simple:  Do anything you want, as long as you aren't harming anyone else.
 
Bryant RedHawk
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There used to be "fair law" in the USA, the correct term for that is "Maritime Law" the USA abandoned that a long time ago, about the same time the number of Lawyers (solicitors) started to increase.
Respecting others should be the norm, today it seems to be the exception.  This would include that "more prayer or focus on "God", If you feel the need for that, please indulge yourself, just don't try to push it on me.
(I should mention that I am Jesuit trained, do believe in the higher spirit we call the great father and think that all should follow what they find within their hearts.)

Indeed we need more forest, to replace the billions of hectares we have cut down and turned to useless land.
I like the way the Italian hill people do it, their forests are full of food trees, bushes, shrubs, vines and annual plants, all are edibles.

The nations always have had the right to disagree which means arguments will be had, but wouldn't it be nice to shake hands at the end of it and say "good discussion".
The work thing is a little odd for me, first you should be able to get the education you would need so you could perform that dream job, and you might need the ambition and determination to get to that point.

If everyone just put out the effort to replace greed with humility and caring for others well being, we might find the elusive dream world.
Oh, and no one would be able to think they "Own" land, that is an idea that came to turtle island with the European invaders.
While I understand the concept, for it is born from the greed factor, it should be considered ridiculous since that land was here long before any human and it will be here long after humans are gone.
The first peoples were not exempt from the thoughts for they had "territory" which occasionally brought about raids and wars too, and though these were about survival of a band or nation, still they did not think they could own the land.
Land is like wind, or the sunshine, you can't own it and you can't create it.
Even in Holland they don't create land, they simply free it from the grasp of the ocean by building dykes and pumping water out.

It should be noted that for any of these ideas to become the new reality, a new mind set through out the world, by all people will be necessary.
This will be when we make our next evolutionary leap and set aside greed, becoming more focused on others than on ourselves. 
We tried to make this change in the 1950's (beatnik's) and 1960's (hippies) and by 1970 it had failed as most of the "Hippies" changed their ideals and became Yuppies, better known as the "Me" generation.
They succumbed to the greed factor and thus failed.

Now we are in the period we call "The Fifth Shaking Of the World", only time will tell if humanity can grow out of selfishness and concentrate on the people instead of the individual.

Redhawk

 
Amit Enventres
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Thank you for your input.

I spoke to another few people, and though HOW to get to this ideal varies, it seems to be about the same with miner variations.

As for the questions I don't ask but needed to(and got answers anyway), some people thought others should not be taken care of, but they would like to be in good health and without financial trouble. Also, most people say it can't happen because of human greed or some inherent evil (maybe the same thing?), but as we seem to see so clearly how obvious permaculture is as an answer to a huge number of our woes, so it seems the answer to this human problem must be obviously hidden. Or, so I think, though I may never find it. Certainly a realization we are all connected and benefiting others benefits yourself, would help but then...you can't have it a one-way relationship. Then, there was an idea I passed that said much of the people problems of the world are due to people being traumatized. Some by war, some by neglect, not knowing where their food will come from, abusive parenting, violence in other forms, or perceived threats and violence. This coupled with mal-nutrition can make people act more aggressive... So the trick is to give the world therapy. Or, perhaps it's like couples contemplating divorce, even though they are still married. There's blame, hatred, distrust, protecting the self against the other, etc.

The other answer I got was most people didn't expect to have an ambition others have. Some teared up, some got defensive, some went into their explanation as to why it won't happen, and others were excited, but no one said: "Oh, yeah, I know." So, in my opinion, the start might just be this little question. Just giving people a moment to reflect on a better world and know others share their goal of getting there. The method and reason might flow naturally from there, yah never know.

The other thing is when doing this I did have to ask "what would that lead to?" or "why?" to distill the answer from the proposed methods. Please, if you can, give it a try. Report back.

In the mean time, the three things I found ubiquitous in my 32 people study can be summarized as: Peace, Respect, and Greenery.
 
Tyler Ludens
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Amit Enventres wrote:
In the mean time, the three things I found ubiquitous in my 32 people study can be summarized as: Peace, Respect, and Greenery.


Looks like permaculture to me. 
 
Amit Enventres
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Yeah, Tyler. I was wondering if the  people problems need to be addressed seperate and prior to the garden, but we know gardening is good trauma therapy and provides a lot of the lacking nutrients and can provide basic medicine and a place for people to come together and talk.

So, as Charlie Mgee says, we got to grow food every where. Maybe a good goal to start out is at least one permaculture managed public space with a sitting area per town in the entire world.
 
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