hawaii - first week or two of december 2017

I live in montana, so I have a montana state drivers license.  

I choose to not get a passport.  

Apparently, come january 2018, I will not be allowed to fly on domestic airlines.  

So, this december will be my last chance to go to hawaii.  Ever.  

I cannot afford a ticket.   Well, I'm not going without jocelyn, so I should really say: I cannot afford two tickets.  

If somebody has an event in hawaii that they wanna set up and bring jocelyn and I out, that would be cool.   When the topic came up a while back, my friends Willie Smits and Geoff Lawton said they would come too.  I don't know how their schedules look for december of this year, but if somebody wanted to set this all up, I could ask them.

Maybe somebody just wants to go on a permaculture tour in hawaii, so they cover me and jocelyn and my name opens some doors that otherwise wouldn't open.  

Maybe somebody wants to put on an event.    Like a permaculture tour bus.  Or a permaculture micro conference.

I would like to taste pineapple in hawaii, so I am putting the idea out there.

Sorry to get off topic, but you are saying that all domestic flights will require a passport?

I've passed your information to the Kohala Center on Big Island. Hopefully they'll be interested. I don't think that One Island has the financial resources although they may be interested in participating in some fashion. I'll look up their email and send them a note. The Ka'u Farm School is new (and quite small) and I don't know what their situation is, but I'll pass the info to them. La'akea would probably be interested in some sort of participation, but I don't know anyone there. Again, I'll drop them a line.

If you do make it over to Big Island, you're welcome to tour my farm. You'll be one of the very, very few people who get the opportunity, other than the tax assessor that is.

I'm not familiar with who to contact on the other islands. But I could snuffle around and try to come up with some contacts.

wayne fajkus wrote:Sorry to get off topic, but you are saying that all domestic flights will require a passport?

Some States do not have drivers licenses that meet Federal REAL ID standards, so a passport will be required by TSA for air travel starting in 2018.
Kentucky, Maine, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, and Washington residents are the ones affected.

Hope you get to Hawaii, Paul!

Thanks su ba!  Apple for you!

Dunno if pineapples are in season in December, might wanna check into that if it's an important goal.

Click on the thumbs up for this post if you are already in hawaii and you wanna come to something that would have me as part of it.

click on the thumbs up for this post if you don't live in hawaii, but whatever happens, you wanna come too.   Cuz a vacation in hawaii sounds okay, but a permaculture vacation  in hawaii sounds freaky awesome!

Click on the thumbs up for this post if you like beaches.

Elizabeth Rose wrote:Dunno if pineapples are in season in December, might wanna check into that if it's an important goal.

Did a quick Google and found this from here:

Hawaiian pineapples are grown year round but the peak growing season is from March through July.

I'm going to be in Hawaii Dec 10-15 for a friend's wedding, if the stars align and you guys end up out at the same time I would love to get together.  

Paul,
I just sent you an email with some details about a possible opportunity to teach permaculture in HI. If the email's not in your inbox, check your junk filtered folder.
aloha
-Loxley

Talk about clickbait!  I want to see Paul doing the hula!!!

So, this december will be my last chance to go to hawaii.  Ever.  

You don't think that Montana, and the other states will "ever" bring their drivers' licenses up to REAL ID standards?  Also off topic, sorry.

Corrie Snell wrote:

So, this december will be my last chance to go to hawaii.  Ever.  

You don't think that Montana, and the other states will "ever" bring their drivers' licenses up to REAL ID standards?  Also off topic, sorry.

I spent all of about two minutes looking into that.   What I read was "that is a LOT of invasion of privacy!" - so i think a better question is, do you think that TSA will drop the stupid "real" id thing?

Bottom line is that I like the excuse to avoid travel.  But I also like the idea of visiting a tropical beach at least once in my life, and I really like pineapple and am curious about "better pineapple".  I always thought I would someday go to the carribean, but it seems that door has been shut.

I wonder if taking a boat to HI or the United States Virgin Islands in the Caribbean would have different or the same ID requirements...

Loxley Clovis wrote:I wonder if taking a boat to HI or the United States Virgin Islands in the Caribbean would have different or the same ID requirements...

I've read that the law is that you don't need a passport if you are going by boat.  But if you get a dipshit with a badge, then it will become a shitstorm that can take many days to sort out while you sit somewhere uncomfortable.

There are some chilly places in Hawai'i:

"The Hawaiian Islands can boast more ecological diversity in a single location than any place on Earth. ... Far from the cliché of white sandy beaches & swaying palm trees, in Hawai'i you can go from geologically fresh & gentle uncarved slopes to the tallest sea cliffs in the world. From lands that were created just this morning -barren & devoid of life- to climaxed forests supporting thousands of species, from cinderlands as dry as any other the worlds deserts [image of Maui's 10,023 foot Haleakalā volcano] to arguably the wettest spot on earth [image of Big Bog], from coastal dunes at sea level to snow-capped volcanic summits just shy of 14,000 feet. Couple this remarkable habitat diversity with extreme isolation & you'll find the species that evolved here are unlike anywhere else on the planet, co-adapted & balanced & forming an amazing array of ecosystems. The Holdridge Life Zone System is one of the classic ways of cataloging global ecosystem diversity. 38 different life zone are used to comprise the full range of habitats on the planet. Life zones such as tropical rain forests, frozen tundra, super-arid desert, temperate steppe, & so on. So now let's do an unfair comparison: Brazil, the largest country on the continent of South America, spanning ~40 degrees of latitude & 8,511,965 square kilometers, from the heart of the Amazon to the foothills of the Andes. It packs a hefty 17 Holdridge Life Zones. That's the record for the continent of South America. Hawai'i in comparison: ~4 degrees of latitude & 16,672 square & yet comprised of 27 Holdridge Life Zones! Let's hear it for Hawai'i! It is the single most habitat rich place on the planet! Put another way, if you wanted to choose one place on earth to represent the full range of ecosystems that the planet can offer, it would be the Hawaiian Islands. ... Just about any terrestrial life form on Earth could find its optimal conditions, its sweet spot, somewhere in the Hawaiian Islands." - Lessons from a thousand years of island sustainability | Sam ‘Ohukani'ōhi'a Gon III, PhD | TEDxMaui

There are many higher elevation mountain slope dwellers in Hawai'i who may want to hear a temperate permaculturalist speak at a conference in addition to warm-climate dudes like Smits & Lawton.

Well, it doesn't sound like there is anybody that's a big conference creator sort of person that wants to put on a show and pay my ride.

Maybe there is somebody that can put on a stellar vacation, and can arrange a helluva trip.  There are currently six people that wanna go to hawaii for a permaculture vacation.  Maybe sombody could arrange a group thing?  What if there are 20 people in our group?  And we can rent a VRBO mega-house for all of us?  And arrange for a bus to buzz us all around.   Or maybe there are packages similar to this and the package place would be up for a permaculture variation?

It sounds like something is going to happen.   If you are interested, you might want to click on the "watch" button on this thread so you can get notified when there is news.

I looked on VRBO and there are some very nice big places to rent, a la the permies house for PV1.  Not sure if I can be the one to set it all up (or even attend) but it's not hard to set up the reservation, just a small leap of faith.  Good places get rented up to a year in advance, it seems.

Paul: I got my fist passport in 1966. My freedom is my most precious value, after my life. If I have to "buy" it by paying a fee, or a tax, or hand over my wallet to a common thief, I will. I don't like it and if I could find a way to avoid it, I would. Yes, I admit it. I would shamelessly be a "passport evader", "tax evader", or "robbery evader" or "driver's license evader". But these immoral invasions on my rights I submit to, rather than be imprisoned or killed. This is the world we live in, the majority's choice, not mine. It's possible to live well in this unfree world, with integrity, and hope for change, which I fight for, as a proud voluntarist.

I lived on the big island in 1982 for 3 months. I was granted free access to a one room tree house surrounded forest & large jagged lava. I had no running water or toilet but I had a sink, a propane stove, a big bed, and a small balcony which led up to the roof via a rope latter. It was like living in a boat cabin with french doors & windows overlooking the trees/boulders. On the roof was a trampoline (if you were suicidal or a daredevil). I found some pvc pipe and plumbed it so I could catch rainwater/pump it to my sink from the 55 gallon drums underneath the house. I put up (necessary) mosquito netting around the bed and later covered the open window to keep out the wasps/bees/flying insects. This was in Ocean View Estates where 1 acre lots could be purchased cheap, depending on the terrain.

I left because I was financially ambitious and I didn't know how to make a living there. I was a professional poker player so I returned to Las Vegas. But if you farm wisely you could sell produce and survive.

You should live there for a minimum of ONE year before deciding. Don't commit until then or later. Most of O.V.E. one acre lots (blacktop road/electric) are undeveloped, changing hands for about a half century. Why? Go find out. It's not for everybody, e.g., no seasons, no well water (all catchment). Don't let a dream cause you to make a big mistake, dreams change when confronted with reality.  

Don, Oceanview has changed a lot since 1982, but it's still popular with folks who like being somewhat independent and away from most of the government scrutiny. The entire area is still on catchment water but a deep well was recently dug, so people don't have to leave Oceanview for water when they opt to haul their own. The price of lots has gone up significantly. The cheapest lots (1 acre) at the top go for around $5000.....7 miles downhill to the highway, mostly or completely rough lava, subject to vog, cold at night. So the lots are not real appealing to most people. But the folks who live there actually want to live there and have no intentions of moving down the mountain. I have a good friend living up there and even when the opportunity arose to move down to a wooded, balmy, warm lot, she declined.

Personally, I opted for a passport. Heck, the government already knows just about everything there is to know about me anyway. A passport at least gives me the opportunity to immediately leave the country if some disaster is pending or occurs.

As for Paul's trip in December, I don't know if that is going to happen. I passed along information to every group that I thought might be interested, including the island's mayor office. The only responses I got back were from small non-profit groups who have no financial resources but were willing to provide volunteer labor to run an event. All the head honchos with the money were completely silent.

I don't have a lot to add to this thread, except to say that I spent a week in Maui and it was one of the best weeks of my life.

Interesting topic,  and as Loxley Clovis said, hawaii is indeed a very diverse place, but there are a few things that are wrong

1. Brazil is indeed the biggest country in south america, but is far from being the most diverse in life zones "it lacks both high mountains and deserts". Venezuela, colombia, peru, ecuador, bolivia and Argentina  all have lifezones ranging from deserts and tropical rain forest in one extreme to glaciers on the other as the andes are the highest mountains in the world after the himalayas. I don't include chile on the list as it lacks tropical rain forest. Argentina alone may have even more life zones "Not sure about it" than the whole US "including alaska and hawaii"

2. Hawaii is very diverse but it lacks a few thing such as tropical life zones, even thought its in the tropics, the average annual temperature is not hot enough to classify as any tropical life zones according to the holdridge system, and of the 7 altitude level "basal, premontane, lower montane, montane, subalpine, alpine, and nival" it lacks the last two. So perhaps its indeed the most diverse island in the world but its not the most diverse location in the world. For example in my country, Colombia, municipios are the equivalent to counties. The municipio where I live, Santa Marta, has an area of 2,393 km2 "923 square miles" and its territory goes from the carribean sea to 5.800 mts  "19.030 feet" in the sierra nevada de Santa Marta "the highest coastal mountain in the world" it has almost everything hawaii has plus alpine tundra and glaciers

Aloha Juan, the answer is It Depends...It depends on what classification system you use. Mr. Gon, a respected scientist and land manager around these parts, is using the Holdridge Life Zone system, which in my experience is the general preference among ecologists. The Holdridge system takes into account climate, geography, altitude, and plant and animal communities, in other words, is an ecological classification as opposed to a climate classification. According to the attached photo, Hawaiʻi island alone has 25 of 35 possible Life Zones. The photo attached to Joseph Lofthouseʻs reply to this thread was of the Island of Maui, which is very diverse, but not as diverse as the Big Island (Hawaiʻi Island), and adding in the rest of the State, adds 2 more Life Zones, making Sam correct in his statement of 27 Life Zones.

We do have lots of Tropical areas, if you are using temperature, just look at the average temperatures for the city of Hilo, HI. We do indeed have alpine ares at the summits of our high mountains. There is also permafrost up there, giving us tundra. We do lack glaciers (but didnʻt during the last Ice age), but have just about everything else

If you use just climate zones, we have, arguably, 8/13 of climate zones. It is rather difficult to catch any of the continental climates when you are 4,000 miles from the nearest continent.

While I know Hawaiʻi is right up there in Life zone diversity, I wonʻt weigh in on whether that is "the most...anything...in the world" as I have not been everywhere so I donʻt know. That kind of thing gets thrown around a lot, even here in Hawaiʻi, and is usually wrong or unprovable. Who can check everywhere in the world? I think we should settle on the world is extremely diverse, and everywhere is beauty and diversity.

Hola Joe.

You are right on your post on many things. As you said it all depends on the type of classifications classifications we use.

Regarding continental climate, its not just hawaii but all places in the tropics or subtropics that lacks continental climate "in the koppen classification". only the northern parts of europe, asia, north america, and the southmost parts of south america "patagon, tierra del fuego" do have that climate.

You are also right regarding the alpine altitude level in hawaii on the big island. Do you know if the hawaiian "tundra" is similar northern andes or central american "tundra" that is known as paramos?.

As for tropical life zones in hawaii I still have my doubts, most places I checked didn't name a tropical biome, I even found a map similar to the one posted by loxley but  of the big island on "https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/dofaw/files/2014/02/Establishment_of_The_Hawaii_Experimental_Tropical_Forest.pdf" that does not include the tropical level.

What I find most remarkable about hawaii is the difference of average annual precipitation in just a few miles away. I don't know of any place in the world that has that.

If you ever want to come to Santa Marta, here are a few examples of the county's diversity.  

Juan said <<<What I find most remarkable about hawaii is the difference of average annual precipitation in just a few miles away. >>>

True! I have my homestead farm in one location and my seed & hot weather crops 5 miles down the road. The homestead is too moist for general seed saving, and too cool for crops like lima beans, soybeans, okra. The homestead farm gets 60-80 inches of rain per year. The seed farm gets 30-40 inches. A significant difference for only 5 miles. Half the precipitation.

Here is where the state and the county are located within Colombia