volume 1 of Edible forest Gardens by Dave Jacke

Well I just finished reading Volume 1 of Edible forest Gardens by Dave Jacke, it was interesting but kinda wordy..

I did learn a few new things ..mostly on the information about the below ground ecosystem which I found very interesting and learned why some of my plants are doing so good..will make some changes in the spring as per that..didn't realize that grassy lands are more bacterial balance where wood lands are more fungi balance..that makes sense to me and I can see why some things that I've put in where I've mulched grasslands and made into forest gardens might have needed an addition of some forest soil innoculated into the holes..duh...I should have thought of that.

also the apple and stone fruit replant disease problem is probably hitting me square in the peaches..and maybe some of my apples..obviously if their roots don't mix I shouldn't have planted some of my apples so close to my mature apple tree..and when my stone fruit trees died and I replaced them in the same area, I probably screwed them up badly..so will try to make some moves of those in the spring..

other than that I think I really knew most of what I read..from previous studies..

on to volume 2 when it comes in to my local library..hope it is a little less wordy and a little more new information..I need INPUT

Brenda Groth wrote:
on to volume 2 when it comes in to my local library..hope it is a little less wordy and a little more new information..I need INPUT

it isn't less wordy.  great information, though.  and, most importantly, the appendices are very handy.

I agree with Tel Jetson. Vol 2 before the appendices runs at 452 pages, with it is 654.

Well worth the time though. The amount of information that David and Eric compiled is astounding. I'm using both books as guides.

Finch.J9b wrote:
I agree with Tel Jetson. Vol 2 before the appendices runs at 452 pages, with it is 654.

Well worth the time though. The amount of information that David and Eric compiled is astounding. I'm using both books as guides.

I read a lot of part 1 before returning it.  I found the assessment of Robert Hart's place to be...  ..disheartening.  I am sure all of us have our own criteria as to what is successful for us, as did Eric & David w/ their reviews.

i expected as much. I'm still waiting to hear from the library..I'm a huge note taker so I took extensive notes on the volume 1..but still managed to get it read from cover to cover in less than a week..but even though I'm a fast reader, it was a bit "wordy". could have been edited to be less so...but good info.

am also looking forward to the coppice book, as that is a direction I'm leaning toward this year with our alder trees and maybe some willows..alders for firewood and crafting or fencing, and willows for crafting materials, maybe..we'll see..not sure i'll have time to do any crafting this year with replacing a wrap around deck and repairing all of our fences from windstorm damage last fall.

OMG Tel you were right it sure isn't less wordy !!! It is even wordier. How many times can one person say the same thing so many different ways with so many different words !!!?

anyway, I'm half way through  volume 2 and OMG I am amazed at the amount of words crammed into this book that say so little.

I admit, yes, I am glad I'm reading it....how can I say this??? I have learned a FEW things I didn't know and knowledge always makes the time worth it..but a good editor surely could have made this and volume 1 a lot more pleasant to read..it just gets so weary reading too many words that say so little.

I will finish it..maybe the second half of the book is better than the first half..but sure glad I didn't spend the $150 on it..

My recommendation..if you are going to read it..get it at the library !! spend your money on Gaia's Garden which basically says pretty much the same thing in a lot less words and a lot more entertaining format..thank you Toby Hemenway for making it a lot easier and cheaper to get the same information.

One of my faculty once told me her excuse.. "I would have made i shorter but I ran out of time..."

For the record,this book set was supposed to be one book costing 35$ in 2000.Nature is full of exceptions and creating a really specific model and than defending it from the exceptions can fill an encyclopedia.The root info is taken from another book I believe.

Brenda Groth wrote:
also the apple and stone fruit replant disease problem is probably hitting me square in the peaches

is that this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_replant_disease

would planting fruit trees next to crabapples be problematic.

I have read the series and thought it was superb.  Gaia's garden is good too, but EFG goes into great detail with all the necessary steps to do a full scale design (which the authors advise you follow only as far as helpful), whereas Gaia's garden is geared towards home scale.

Edit: Some of the repetition helped me learn important information, which might have slipped my memory in such a large text.

EFG Vol I is, to me, this amazing book on ecology. It really opened my eyes up to a lot of things. The fungal-bacterial ratios in soils of different ecotypes was really revealing. EFG Vol II is awesome for the appendices.

To the one who said the story about Robert Hart's garden being disheartening: I found the opposite to be true. If anything I found it very encouraging. That all we need do is attempt something and the natural-processes will take care of the rest.

Wordy is right.  These easily could have been 1 book.  I read through them both and enjoyed them, but there's way too much fluff.  As someone already pointed out the plant lists and things are great.  I love the top 100 permaculture plants in volume one and all the into at the end of the 2nd volume as well.  I just wish it was compressed into 1 book.

i did not mean to make it sound like I was dissapointed with the books, as I wasn't really, but I did think that editing would have made the books much easier to read..and I'm a very avid and very fast reader. I just found it wearying having so many unnecessary words.

The information however was excellent and I did learn some good things that would be helpful.

as for the above question about crabapples..in the book they mentioned that with apples and with stone fruits that their roots will not mingle..and that even dead roots in the soil for 15 years will prevent new roots of the same fruit from entering that area.

so if you plant say an apple tree next to another apple tree, the new ones will avoid the area where the old ones are..or if you have a peach tree die and try to replace it with another peach tree in the same spot, even if you add more nutrients and soil, you still might have the old roots hanging out in the soil that might prevent the new tree from putting roots out into the surrounding soil.

i knew this was true with roses, called rose replant disease..but wasn't aware of the apple and stone fruit problem..i have had a few problems with some stone fruits dying in the past and have tried to replant new trees near where the old ones died, and that culd be creating a problem for me, also have planted young apple trees on the property where older apple trees had died, but I elieve it was more than 15 years ago, anyway, I'm going to have a bit more knowledge when planting trees now, and might move those peach trees this spring..to an area where no trees have ever grown..in my knowledge and we have been here 40 years.

Brenda Groth wrote:


so if you plant say an apple tree next to another apple tree, the new ones will avoid the area where the old ones are..or if you have a peach tree die and try to replace it with another peach tree in the same spot, even if you add more nutrients and soil, you still might have the old roots hanging out in the soil that might prevent the new tree from putting roots out into the surrounding soil.

That's very helpful to know, since I have to replant a bunch of fruit trees that were killed by drought and sheep.

So would it be safe to put an apple where a peach or plum had been planted?

Thanks for the awesome info!

Brenda Groth wrote:
i did not mean to make it sound like I was dissapointed with the books, as I wasn't really, but I did think that editing would have made the books much easier to read..and I'm a very avid and very fast reader. I just found it wearying having so many unnecessary words.

The information however was excellent and I did learn some good things that would be helpful.

as for the above question about crabapples..in the book they mentioned that with apples and with stone fruits that their roots will not mingle..and that even dead roots in the soil for 15 years will prevent new roots of the same fruit from entering that area.

so if you plant say an apple tree next to another apple tree, the new ones will avoid the area where the old ones are..or if you have a peach tree die and try to replace it with another peach tree in the same spot, even if you add more nutrients and soil, you still might have the old roots hanging out in the soil that might prevent the new tree from putting roots out into the surrounding soil.

i knew this was true with roses, called rose replant disease..but wasn't aware of the apple and stone fruit problem..i have had a few problems with some stone fruits dying in the past and have tried to replant new trees near where the old ones died, and that culd be creating a problem for me, also have planted young apple trees on the property where older apple trees had died, but I elieve it was more than 15 years ago, anyway, I'm going to have a bit more knowledge when planting trees now, and might move those peach trees this spring..to an area where no trees have ever grown..in my knowledge and we have been here 40 years.

I just attended a weekend forest gardening workshop with Dave Jacke and I was absolutely blown away.  I also realize now that there was a lot more subtlety in the books than I realized when I read them the first time.  I had been really enjoying Crawford's book prior, because it was so much simpler and clearer (I still like it), but there is depth in Dave's book, and specificity, and data, that doesn't exist in one place anywhere else.  I bought a second set, actually, so I can keep one at the farm and have one here at the apartment.

If you have a chance to attend a talk or workshop with him I *highly* recommend it.  He's a superb teacher.

He talked about Robert Hart, and his assessment was not at all negative.  He said even though Hart made a lot of mistakes, he was able to eat out of the garden for the last three years of his life without doing any work in it, and how many annual vegetable gardens would allow that?  He also said that Hart just did what felt right, even though he himself said he "didn't know much about plants," and we should take a lot of encouragement from that, because we can now draw on lessons from him and from all the other pioneers. 

I definitely feel encouraged, and energized, and much clearer of my goals than ever before. 

i admit I did learn a lot of good information, my only complaint was the over wordiness..there was a lot of good in depth information and I totally agree about that..I took very extensive notes and on my limited budget felt that the $150 would have been out of my price range for the information I got, but as i said I took a lot of notes and used the library..

I feel that people should take advantage of their local libraries if there is NOT a lot of cash in your pockets..our income is very very limited so the library was the best answer for me..however..the lower cost books that I have purchased are good to have on hand as reference copies..

I would have even thought about copying the appendix at the end of the book, as they were the most helpful appendix's (poor english) that I have found in a long time..but I couldn't afford the ink and paper to run them off..so I just used a 10 c notebook and an ink pen and some lengthy time writing..but if you got the bucks buy the books

I read Volume 1 and most of Volume 2.  The repetition of ideas was astoundingly boring.  "If we rephrase this idea enough times, it will sound more complicated and erudite!"

There is a lot of good info though... if you live in the temperate areas of the US.  I  don't.

Another book report: Just finished reading Perennial Vegetables by Eric Toensmeier and it was suprisingly very good. More than half of the plants featured in the book were NOT able to be grown as perennials in my zone 4/5 area however but the information I did get was helpful...also helped me to know what plants to not buy that have been recommended elsewhere.

Now reading: Plants for a Future by Ken Fern. Actually finding this book even more interesting even though unfortunately I do not live in Britain..

both books were well written and helpful information. I recommend both, especially the former one if you live in a more southern area than I do (Michigan here), as the information would be much more suited for you.

Plants for a Future talks about more than just plants, has some basic permaculture information as well .


Am also getting a great list of books to borrow from the library when I return these (but am also waiting on my Sepp book I ordered in March)

Here is an amazon links to the books: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN/1890132608/rs12-20

      Hart had a gardener wandering around in the video, a man working in the garden, so he would hardly need to know about plants. All the english villagers when i was small new how to grow the vegetables for their families, in their back gardens, that is in a smal space, it is almost worth going to england to do a lot of photos of these back gardens and of the village fetes, garden shows, in which there are prizes for the best carrot and cabbage etc, and the men work all the night before the show soaking and cleaning the vegetables, while the women compete for the prize for the best jams and cakes and flower arrangements and the children for the best flower arrangements, pictures and hand writting.
        Mind you Harts methods would have been a bit different from the normal Eneglish village ones, still he was into permacultuer and his gardener would have know the basics about traditional horticulture the sort that was used before the use of chemicals had spread everywhere.
        It is good to encourage people to do things without knowledge that is how i have learnt a lot of things, any way if you start doing things you start to look for information on them when they dont work either asking or reading about them so you ned up learnign a lot.
            On the other hand if the knowledge is out there it will get handed round and picked up. I like to understand things, the why and wherefore of them, i like to be treated as a clever person who can understand things and i expect others to want to be treated as clever too.

      If you think how easy it seems to be for the makesrs of chemicals to sell there stuff and convince the public there is no harm in it, so tha  and no need for manure or organic matter that even if they are not needed for nitrogen also help the land absorb and retain water so are need to lessen irrigation or better the plants chances of not suffereing from water stress. The chemical companies persuade farmers to do things that ruin their land and there old role of the passers on of a good farm for thier sons and posterity has been destroyed in the process, then even Robert Hart might admit that it would be best if everyone knew a lot.
      What have we developed or been given this complicated head of ours  for if it was not to sort out a lot of intricate stuff.
      To treat people as if they cant understand things is just a remnant of classism. In classism they see sawed between considering that they, the rich, were where they were because of natural mental superiority and admiting that they had had a lot of advantages, more chances to learn than others.

    It's true, it takes a lot of work to write things down in their simplest shortest form, i get so wearied just correcting the spelling that i stop nearly all editing.
        I found out in adult life that if the text book is a bore to read you just hop along to the shop, somt¡mes it need to be a specialist one, the agricultural book shop for example and find a book on the same subject that is easy to read. I tell that to the young, however you need a bit of money to buy books. rose macaskie.

brenda Groth , on the bacterial fungi balane in hay feild and woodland evidnelty there are morevarieties of fungi in woodland, i have been in woods when ther has been plenty of rain and the toadstools have been such as to decorate the floor of the floor of the wood, but a scientist called Sarah  Wright isolated a substance called glomalin that covers the hypha of mycorrhizal fungi and as these renew every two weeks gets left in the ground and sticks earth in clumps crumbs, stopping clay from being a a continuouse mass of heavy clay and sticking sand together. This improves the tilth, whih is to say makes soils more workable and more important makes soils into  into airer warmer more penetrable homes for roots or, in the case of sandy soils, less loose and less given to having the nutrients washed out of them in the rain.
  She had a lot of soils examined for glomalin and glomalin was in all of them, so grasslands must have mushrooms, fungal growth  though they are not very noticeable in such lands.
  Glomalin is also useful because it holds lots of carbon more than humic acids and fulvic acids in the soil hold and it has a shelf life of some forty odd years all being well. HUmic and fulvic acids have less carbon in them but a shelf life of a thousand years, all being well, there are definately less of these in soils that depend on chemials for their nitrogen not rotting vegetable matter that accomplishes variouse functions instead of just that of providing nitrogen, this is very important with this global warming that causes floods and  tornadoes and droughts.
    If glomalin is in all soils then it must be in soils that were there is a heavy use of fertilisers that tends to burn the life in the soil unless used with a measured hand, and pesticides and herbicides, though i should think the quantities of glomalin  in soils that are well treated must be much greater. agri rose macaskie.

laughing... they spared no trees for wordiness texts of permaculture. appreciate their efforts. despite many trials, text books and novels should not be merged.

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