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rocket mass heaters

How to transform our fireplace

Carla Burke

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Satamax Antone wrote:Again,

https://batchrocket.eu/en/

I would rather do bells, than multi channel stoves. Multi channel stoves are more finicky due to boundary layers. Ok, they have more ISA But the bricks in the channels release their heat in the flue path. That Also means that there is heat released to the outside, and keeps draft until cold. But when cold, the boundary layer, dampens the ease of starting up.

For a builder

https://www.mha-net.org/member-directory-alphabetical/

HTH

This is the kind of information I'm looking for. See, the problem is that I know so precious little about the different types and their differences & similarities, that I don't know what I don't know. It makes it difficult to get answers to those (MANY) questions I don't know to ask, leaving me only with insanely generalized questions about efficiency and ease of use. Yet, I feel like the urgency to get something in here, combined with everything else that's going on precludes the time I'd need to fully educate myself on all the options, their efficacy, cost, etc. So, maybe... cliffnotes are what I need. Like... when your 13yr old child/ grandchild, who doesn't know anything about it, but has an honest interest and wants to learn everything they can, sees you working on something you know well, and you only have 2 days to teach them... I'm that kid.

"The only thing...more expensive than education is ignorance."~Ben Franklin
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." ~ Plato

Carla Burke

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John F Dean wrote:I have taken a fresh interest in this thread. I am in a similar position regarding converting a fireplace. I do have a huge plus. The fireplace I am thinking of converting in located in the basement and has an excellent flue.

Yeh. That whole 'make it purty' thing makes a huge difference! I'm sorry you're needing a revamp too, though!

Douglas Alpenstock

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John F Dean wrote:I have taken a fresh interest in this thread. I am in a similar position regarding converting a fireplace. I do have a huge plus. The fireplace I am thinking of converting in located in the basement and has an excellent flue.

Are you thinking mass heater or a conventional insert? I can tell you that the high efficiency inserts available now are quite excellent, with their own internal heat exchanger and outside combustion air.

Jay Angler

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I'm living in a two story house on slab. The slab has knee walls of various heights and neither they or the slab are insulated from the rest of the planet. There is a recognized, "efficient" wood-stove in the basement. There was a modern deep fireplace on the main (upstairs) floor with a rock surround and we have no clue whether there's any insulation behind that rock. We upgraded it with a more efficient insert. Both fireplaces tend to give off a fair bit of smoke depending on the weather and the stage of the fire.

One of my sisters lives in a 1950's brick home with no insulation - but it's got great thermal mass!
My other sister lives in a 1950's wood stick house which has had insulation and siding added on the outside - decent insulation but no thermal mass.

Short version: everything I've learned from my house and my sister's houses, is that thermal mass inside an insulated envelope is important for efficient heating regardless of the system.
The great thing about any sort of RMH is that the fire heats the mass and then the mass gives off gentle radiant heat for a long time. Our house is too warm when we run the upstairs insert (but when the temps dip below freezing and there's no sun, I'll put up with "too warm") but it cools off too fast once the fire goes out. I've tried directing some of that heat to the rock surround, but I suspect there is zero insulation behind it, so it is only somewhat helpful.

Compared to everything I've read, we're using a lot more firewood than we would if we had something more like either a batch-box or a RMH, but I don't have a real life example to point to, and depending on how houses are built, fixing the underlying problems is major work. Permies care about stuff that the rest of the world doesn't - yes, I'd like a "pleasant-looking" house, but I *want* an efficient, comfortable house even more! I do *not* want a "magazine house"! I'm thankful that I have a safe place to live, so I suppose a part of me feels guilty about wanting it to have efficient heat as well, but since I care about this planet, I do the best I can.

I really hope both Carla and John F Dean keep looking for what will work as best possible with where you are starting from.

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Hans Quistorff

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So if your original fireplace had been built as a bell with a heat riser on the left and a chimney on the right drawing from the bottom of the bell, the whole rock face would be heated and radiate across the big room. What has been demonstrated is that putting compleat combusted gasses in at the top of a chamber and taking it out at the bottom gives the most heat extraction. Complicated pathways are not necessary. So you could rebuild it in the same place or on the other end where it can radiate both sides or both ends of the room.

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Carla Burke

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Do we have a post or thread somewhere, that has the anatomy of each of the styles, maybe with the function of each part?

Douglas Alpenstock

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Jay Angler wrote: There is a recognized, "efficient" wood-stove in the basement. There was a modern deep fireplace on the main (upstairs) floor with a rock surround and we have no clue whether there's any insulation behind that rock. We upgraded it with a more efficient insert. Both fireplaces tend to give off a fair bit of smoke depending on the weather and the stage of the fire.

Jay, sorry you're having trouble. Smoking stoves/inserts are incredibly frustrating.

Assuming these are good stoves, it's usually chimney and drafting issues that are the culprit. The chimney system for modern wood stoves is an engineered part of the overall combustion system. Too short a chimney, too large a chimney diameter, or a natural downdraft in the local topography leads to smoking issues. Masonry chimneys often create trouble unless a suitable pipe is installed inside, sometimes with an insulated section extending some distance above the chimney top.

Chimney issues also mean the stoves have to run "full bore" to prevent smoking. This prevents you from throttling down 50-60% once the fire is well established. Hence, too hot and then too cold.

Hope you find a solution.

Jay Angler

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Douglas Alpenstock wrote:

a natural downdraft in the local topography leads to smoking issues.

The downstairs stove is a Pacific Energy, so yes - a very good stove. I am fairly sure the issue is the downdraft based on tall trees too close to the house on the side of the prevailing winter wind. Unfortunately, that's also the side with the electrical lines, so Hubby's been stalling on his promise to remove a bunch of them. I know I won't convince him to hire someone, so I wait patiently (maybe not so patiently some days) for it to become a priority.

Yes - that does mean that we tend to have to run hotter at some times than is desirable. However, it does *not* change the fact, that having thermal mass that's insulated from the outdoors and that is designed to absorb that heat, wouldn't help a bunch. We have a well-insulated electric stove. I use, "The Baker's Guide to Homeheating" and bake something yummy, and the stove gives off heat for a couple of hours after!

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Douglas Alpenstock

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Phew, trees + electrical lines = expensive. Not pretty.

I absolutely agree with your argument for thermal mass. It simply works, and it makes sense. It's not easy to implement with many existing structures, though. If you're on a concrete slab, you have a solid foundation for some serious construction.

Naturally, that's the smallest part of the equation. Other issues to manage include permits, money, insurance, and mutual agreement on the best path. It's a complex dance. Luck!

Anne Miller

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I have been following this thread with anticipation and what will transpire next.

Carla said, "Do we have a post or thread somewhere, that has the anatomy of each of the styles, maybe with the function of each part?

Carla, I would love to hear if you have resolved the chimney issue as to how your plan to run the pipe for the new stove after deciding what stove.

Will there be a new pipe through the old chimney or a new pipe installed? Any decisions?

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Carla Burke

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Anne Miller wrote:I have been following this thread with anticipation and what will transpire next. Carla, I would love to hear if you have resolved the chimney issue as to how your plan to run the pipe for the new stove after deciding what stove.

Will there be a new pipe through the old chimney or a new pipe installed? Any decisions?

Hi, Anne! Sadly, the entire thing has to come down. We can & will save the rocks to use in the next iteration of wood heat, for our home, but there is damage to the inside of that exterior wall, because there was no barrier between the exterior wall and the thin metal of the chimney, and they've been touching, plus a gap developed, at the joint of the metal. There's no safe way to inspect and repair that damage, without taking it down. So, we will be starting from scratch. That's a lot more work, but, it's also allowing us the opportunity to take it in a whole different direction - especially now that John is on board with some form of RMH.

I've been collecting pics and ideas, sharing them with him, and slowly narrowing everything down. Since we are not physically capable of doing much of the labor, ourselves, this won't be a cheap endeavor, and finding someone willing to travel (even the closest rmh builders we've found are still 2 - 5hrs away) is proving to be a hella challenge. Unless we are blessed with a very generous windfall, this whole project could be a 2 or 3 year ~~financial nightmare~~ project that we won't even be able to start for another year or two.

These are some pics we're considering, for their aesthetic appeal, trying hard to keep in mind the batch box/bell OS, but, we want to incorporate our rocks, not bricks, and we're not sure how to work our rocks with the cob, though I it's definitely what we're looking to do:

doublebench.jpg

RB-PD6.jpg

Aukje-s_vortex.jpg

piec-rakietowy2.jpg

bench-stove.jpg

c24231552ea838b51a46a73e1d2cd792.jpg

DSC04940_zps7905cfdb.jpg

DSC04498_zps84f22d87.jpg

Jay Angler

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Darn - I wish you'd posted those pics one per post so I could upvote or downvote the ones I think would go nicely in the space you've shown us! I do like the idea of having a 18" to 2 ft tile or brick or flat rock surround at the base to keep sparks from landing on your wood floor.
Do not read further if you don't want my highly opinionated take on the pictures! I respect that our taste could be *very* different!
Pic 1 - I can totally see something like that in your space (rocks instead of bricks)
Pic 2 - I wouldn't go for something so "block-ish" - even substituting rock.
Pic 3 - Yuck - looks like a cave in a wall. I think the colour tones related to the rest of the room are all off too, which may be influencing me. The deep section near the top, if inset with tiles and mirror bits to bounce a little light, could turn it into something I'd like.
Pic 4 - At first look, it seems awfully massive. How big is the whole room it's going into? Something big like that, with a reading/eating nook beside it and maybe a spot for a few nice house plants, could work.
Pic 5 - I like the idea of high back benches - with proper slope/shape for comfort. And long enough to nap on if you come in from the cold. With your rocks for much of the "bell" area and the foot area of the bench, and then cob on the bench, I think it would suit your room - not necessarily that colour - it would need to tone correctly with your rocks.
Pic 6 - Done in rock, this could work for me. It's the fact that there are two sizes of tower, and the low bench, to break up the "monolith" effect. I'd want a comfy chair nearby though!
Pic 7 - Yuck - bench is too deep, too "square", too useless. Taking up space. Something like that with an overhang so it would work as a small table a little like the Japanese winter under-table heaters could work for me, but then the "square" area would have to stick out into the room, not be against a wall. Has anyone tried a rocket mass table instead of bench?
Pic 8 - A bit blocky. If some of those "compartments" are heated cooking spaces that could be nice. My insert is too close to the original fireplace top, so I can't cook or heat anything on it if there's a power outage. The traditional RMH with the metal barrel bell, can be used to at least heat tea in outages!

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Anne Miller

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Those are some interesting designs.

If you are having to hire someone several hours away that might be a good place to start. Getting to know what that builder is familiar with and getting references for checking the builder out.

It would be a shame to pick out a plan and not find someone who will want to build it.

You might also want to start a new Project thread as you go through the process as that might be very helpful.

Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
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Carla Burke

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Ok, to clarify; all those pics are strictly for design concept, and none of them would be 'the ONE'. I will draw out a pleasing design, that will work with our specific room, within the bounds of the proper & effective function of the rmh - THIS is what I've been trying to learn. I've no interest in dark colors in my log home. The room it's in is HUGE. The entire house is 2,100sf, and that room alone accounts for nearly half of it, so space is absolutely not an issue, here. However, how we utilize the space for this is still to be decided. There is a window right next to the fireplace, within about 5feet. (There are pics on the first page of this thread, if that helps). That boxy brick monstrosity of a cad drawing is simply fugly, but is here just for the 'how it works' factor. And, "blocky" doesn't work for me, either. In fact, that's one of the things I've always loved about the existing fireplace: it has corners where needed, but the effect is softened by the roundness of the rocks, and the gentle curve of the chimney. I do like the paler mortar/cob, for the contrast and interest it would bring to the otherwise dark bunch of rocks we have.

The one that looks like a cave... Something similar - maybe wider, done in our rocks, with a white cob base/mortar (the kitchen is attached and open to this room, and all the appliances are white - continuity works, for me), with some back lighting and a thick felted pad, would be a very cozy and welcome reading nook, for those times when I just can't get warm. My physical issues often mean that my body can't regulate heat, like it's supposed to, and when I'm very cold, my joints just won't work. If it's a big enough nook, I might even be able to nap there - I'm down for that! I'm also rather artsy-fartsy, so there's a strong chance that *IF* I decide it looks too stark, I'll embellish it, and I've plenty of options for ways to do that, and some blue & green glass might also be incorporated into the mixture.

My first concern was figuring out what type rmh would best serve us. That done (special thanks Thomas Rubino, Satamax Antone, & Hans Quistorff, for paying attention to what I was actually asking, and doing their level best to answer concisely!) My focus right now, is finding someone to deconstruct the existing one, without destroying my living room, and build the new one the way we want it, without badgering us to sacrifice the elegance of the batch box/bell/rmh concept OR the aesthetic we want. (Considering he's footing the bill for the whole project, everything I find will also need John's express approval. I'm the one who is on permies, and we each have our own ideas, strengths, and weaknesses, but we are truly a team.)

Hans Quistorff

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RB-PD6.jpg

That is what I had in mind only in reverse and possibly taller and only as deep as your current fireplace surround. Making one with a bench would not work as well with a tall bell. A second one on the other end of the great room with a bench away from the window would be a good warming station. It can be built as a cooking option.

this could be built before you tear into the old one and he has the simple plans and parts available.

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Carla Burke

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Hi, Hans! There's actually no place on the other end of the room to put one. BUT! I'd absolutely LOVE to put a wood cook stove of some sort in the kitchen - eventually, lol. I've been pricing them, and drooling over them, for years. Like... 30+ years! I saw something like this one, and am definitely keeping it in mind. If we build the canning/ cooking summer kitchen we both want, this is a distinct possibility, too.

Hans Quistorff

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Satamax Antone wrote:Again,

https://batchrocket.eu/en/

I would rather do bells, than multi channel stoves. Multi channel stoves are more finicky due to boundary layers. Ok, they have more ISA But the bricks in the channels release their heat in the flue path. That Also means that there is heat released to the outside, and keeps draft until cold. But when cold, the boundary layer, dampens the ease of starting up.

Let me break that down for you and apply it to the Walker Stove design in the video. (1) bell: In this case a hollow masonry chamber. Simple to build, can be just cement bricks and slabs covered in your decorative stone. (2) multi channel stoves and heavy mass benches with convoluted smoke path resist the flow of exhaust gasses and then when heated up keep the gasses in the path hot after the fire goes out continuing to draw air through the system cooling it down. (3) The ISA internal surface area of the long smoke path can heat up more mass but at the expense of the difficulty of pushing the gases through the path making it hard to start the fire without smoke coming back instead of out the flue. (4) The bell bench of the walker design has less mass to heat up, which can be a positive or negative depending on your application but it has the efficiency of only having to push the cold air out of the vertical flue and not the full length of the convoluted path. (5) when the burn is done the internally heated gases of the bell can not go back out the burn chamber and only the cold gasses at the bottom of the bell bench can go up the flue so the heat stays in the bench to radiate out to the room.
Conclusion: For a climate with a long very cold heating season where the mass is heated constantly the multi channel or convoluted smoke path through the large mass is warranted but in a climate like mine, which is the same as Walkers, where we only get 3 or 4 really cold weeks and not consecutively, the simplicity of the build and operation favors the hollow bell and/or bench. Any qualified mason could build the Walker Stove from his plans.

Hans Albert Quistorff, LMT projects on permies Hans Massage Qberry Farm magnet therapy gmail hquistorff

Carla Burke

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Thank you, Hans! That gives me a lot to think about! As a whole, our area doesn't really start to get cold until mid-late November, and even then, the deeper cold doesn't usually hit until late December/ early January. We spend most of the winter in the 30°F range, with some sporadic (2 - 4 days/ month) summery days in the 50° - 70° range, but many more days in the 20°s and below - as far down as -17°F, this year. Then there's the 2-week deep freezes, like Feb. '21, where -17° was the day temp. Two of the 4 previous winters we've spend here, the icky cold held deeply into May.

We're surrounded by trees and ravines, in such a way that storms coming from the south usually split, when they hit out place, and the worst of it goes around us. That's the good news. The bad news is that when it gets cold, even when the areas around us are warming up, in the winter, the trees shade us, and the ravines hold onto the cold, sometimes for several more days. So, all that taken into account with what you've explained about the Walker, I can't help thinking you've helped me rule that one out - at least for our main heat. I GREATLY appreciate that!

Carla Burke

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Beau Davidson wrote:
source: https://permies.com/t/71576/tiny-house-rocket-mass-heater

Thank you Beau, for this pic (in the other thread)! It just might be THE pic that convinced John that you don't have to have a drum, and that it can be beautiful. He still doesn't want cob (not fond of it, for or house, myself), but I reminded him that something similar could easily, neatly(relatively), and more quickly, with brick or rock. He's still not convinced we could do it, this fall (out of state wedding that we're attending & paying for - that whole father of the bride thing, livestock to prep for winter, etc). BUT!! We have a builder coming in mid October, to check out the fireplace, and see what he can do for us. AND, after I got him to sit down and watch a few videos, plus some links for pricing & product details, and some ideas about how, in a few years we can move it out to the big garage/workshop, so he can have heat out there; he said he's 100% down with getting a Liberator! I'd thought, at my last post in this thread, that he was on board, but he balked, right after that. Now, he really is on board, at least for the Liberator, and maybe, down the road a few years, he'll be as all-in as I am, about a masonry heater.

Eugene Howard

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Seems this thread died out with no resolution.

Having read thru it as best I could, I am wondering what was THE main heat source for this house? There appear to be many supplemental add on appliances, but what was THE intended main heat source?

Did I see a reference to what may have been a hot water radiant manifold or tubes running in the floor?

Anne Miller

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Carla will probably chime in so I just wanted to add that I believe there is a Liberator in their future.

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Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner

Carla Burke

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Eugene Howard wrote:Seems this thread died out with no resolution.

Having read thru it as best I could, I am wondering what was THE main heat source for this house? There appear to be many supplemental add on appliances, but what was THE intended main heat source?

Did I see a reference to what may have been a hot water radiant manifold or tubes running in the floor?

A combination of a heat pump & sub-floor(hydro) has always been the primary source, with a pair of ventless propane wall Heaters, and the fireplace. We now have a cast iron woodstove, which has become the new primary heat source, with the heat pump only used when using the woodstove is impractical, i.e. when the outside temps are in the 50s, and a fire would be stifling, but something is needed, for comfort.

Anne, the liberator didn't happen. I've mixed feelings on that. This behemoth of a fireplace may never be anything more than a pretty space hogging annoyance - and a place to store wood for the woodstove. I'm washing my hands of this whole mess. For now. In a few years, we may revisit it. Maybe.

Eugene Howard

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Carla:

Describe the sub floor hydro.

As in something like plastic tubes running thru a concrete slab? If so, a couple more questions.

Is slab insulated? Either below or along perimeter?

Is source of heat for the sub floor only a heat pump? Using outside air as the heat source?

Carla Burke

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Eugene, thank you for your interest, but, I didn't build it, and we haven't dug anything up. The heat pump is completely separate from the subfloor heating, which runs off the propane water heater - and the 2 ventless propane heaters still rely on electric starters, and the water heater depends on an electric thermostat. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with replacing/revamping the fireplace. We're not looking to change any of that - just wanted something that was not dependent in any way, on electricity, since we live in the woods, on a road that is often inaccessible, in bad weather. The situation is resolved as far as my husband is concerned, and the fireplace itself has become a very sore-point topic, in our house, for the foreseeable future.

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Sad to hear of your troubles. What was using your propane if you weren't using the wall furnaces or floor heat? Fireplaces are often deemed damaged and unsafe when inspected. Just for ambiance, fireplaces without working chimneys can house a set of candles (real or battery powered). It won't provide heat but it will make it more comforting as it has some life and flame that way. Importantly, non-working fireplaces can be sealed up better to prevent heat loss. Dampers that don't close tight (many of them) are like leaving a window open and will suck cold air in through drafty windows too. I agree with the comment that window film you shrink with a hair dryer would be a quick cheap help for your windows. They can also be installed over fireplace doors when you can’t use the fireplace anyway. A fireplace like you have are considered to lose as much heat as they produce anyway.

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