How to transform our fireplace

without making it ugly?
This gorgeous fireplace is one of the things that sold us on this house. There are many things we absolutely LOVE about our place - unfortunately, our lovely solid-D-shaped-log home's winter-proofing is distinctly not one of them. We have frozen our asses off, in this winter storm, and don't ever want to go through this, again. We also don't want to give up the look we fell in love with, and this fireplace saved us from the (expected, below 40ish°F temps) utter failure of the heat pump - but we need it to do better. We also have many other things in need of expensive upgrading or repair, this year, so it must be affordable. There is (thankfully) an insert that blows heat back in, that would have escaped up the chimney. The room is enormous - about 30x30sf, plus the peak of the cathedral ceiling is 20ft or so up. The roof is well insulated. The logs are the same log, inside, that you see outside. No, we are not going to drywall, in order to add insulation.

At the onset of this storm, our 300gal propane tank (which usually lasts us 4 - 6 months)was at 70%. Today, it's at 30% - and that was without using the 2 wall-mounted ventless emergency heaters, because the valve to them was shut off, by the propane co, for a suspected leak, which we meant to get fixed last year, and is one of the things on the previously mentioned list. On that score, I'm trying to talk hubs into upgrading to a 1k gal tank.

There is supposed to be subfloor heating, via propane water heater. The only valve for it that we've been able to find is the garage portion.

I'm at a loss. We will listen to and consider all ideas, but (of course) eventually a decision or ten will have to be made, in addition to the screen and storm windows I'll be building, this spring. I'm still blown away that there are none of those to be found!

Evan Caffrey wrote:You could build a rocket mass heater and exhaust it up the chimney. Or you could get a fireplace heat exchanger, which is tubes that act as a grate and heat air that is blown into the room. Fireplaces are not an efficient way to heat a room/home as you know. Much heat goes up and out the chimney. A fireplace heat exchanger helps a LOT. I just ordered one from HastyHeat.com. There are 2-3 companies that make and sell them. I like Hasty Heat's design, price, etc. Good luck and warm up! I'm planning on building a rocket mass heater in my detached garage-workshop.

It has the heat exchanger. I mentioned that, but didn't name it, as such - sorry.

Simple and quick could be a wood stove inserted into the existing fireplace?

Ah, yes, I missed the part about the insert. I can't really see it in the pictures - what kind/brand did you get? Good luck and stay warm!

Worth looking into!
Also, of note - the stones along the side don't get warm. I *think* that means the heat exchanger works well - right?

Thermal curtains can make an enormous difference, and it is a fairly inexpensive way to go, especially if you can sew them yourself.  Look at Kume Curtain.

It sounds like you don't get really cold weather much of the time (at least compared to us), so I don't know that I would spend a lot of money on an elaborate solution.  You can have a person come do an energy audit with an infrared camera to see where you are losing the most heat.  That will help you proceed, but you are surely losing much of your heat through your windows and the Kume curtains will probably make more difference than any other single, inexpensive item.

Evan Caffrey wrote:Ah, yes, I missed the part about the insert. I can't really see it in the pictures - what kind/brand did you get? Good luck and stay warm!

I don't know - it was already there, when we bought the house.

Gotta say Carla, that is one beauuuuuutiful house!
I can totally see why you want to keep the aesthetics intact.
I assume that since your posting in the rocket mass heater forum that your leaning in that direction?
If so, that's great because we would love to help you build the stove of your dreams.

One good way to help us see what your looking for is to find a picture of a RMH that you would love to see in your space and then we can help you adjust it to fit your situation.

Trace Oswald wrote:Thermal curtains can make an enormous difference, and it is a fairly inexpensive way to go, especially if you can sew them yourself.  Look at Kume Curtain.

It sounds like you don't get really cold weather much of the time (at least compared to us), so I don't know that I would spend a lot of money on an elaborate solution.  You can have a person come do an energy audit with an infrared camera to see where you are losing the most heat.  That will help you proceed, but you are surely losing much of your heat through your windows and the Kume curtains will probably make more difference than any other single, inexpensive item.

The windows - especially the dining room one - are definitely a huge deal. We were forced to wear our coats to the dinner table, this week!! I don't know why I hadn't thought of the audit - great idea! Thank you!

My parents have a house with solid rectangular milled cedar logs as the only insulation.  It's about 3.5-4" of wood between them and the Wisconsin winter.  A normal forced air furnace keeps the house plenty warm.  The roof is the same cedar logs with two inches of styrofoam on top of them.  

My house is from the 60s and when we redid some windows we discovered it has "half batts" in the 2x4 walls.  So I have about 2" of fiberglass insulation in the walls (R5?).  The attic is properly insulated and the house is sealed up fairly tight.  I heat my house with a large (but not enormous) wood stove in the basement.

I suspect the issue is with heat quantity and delivery, not the construction.  While the construction could be better, it's similar to what my folks and I are working with.  

If you upgrade the fireplace I'd go with a wood burning insert or a free standing wood stove out on the floor that is vented into the fireplace chimney.  Unless the heat from the wood stove/RMH/insert can get around your house, you may end up with a warm living room and chilly bedrooms.

Gerry Parent wrote:Gotta say Carla, that is one beauuuuuutiful house!
I can totally see why you want to keep the aesthetics intact.
I assume that since your posting in the rocket mass heater forum that your leaning in that direction?
If so, that's great because we would love to help you build the stove of your dreams.

One good way to help us see what your looking for is to find a picture of a RMH that you would love to see in your space and then we can help you adjust it to fit your situation.

Thank you so much, Gerry! We waited a very, very long time, for just the right place. Our hearts skipped a few beats, when we found this one. That is most definitely the direction I'd love to go? Especially since I know they use so much less wood, and both of our health is an issue. I have asthma, fibro and lupus, plus some pretty painful joint issues. John has copd, and 7 stents in his heart, and we'renot getting younger(I'll be 57, this month, he'll be 53, next month). Even at our best, we're limited on how much wood we can personally cut, haul, stack, etc. So, rmh just seems to make more sense than other word burning options. The house is on a cement slab foundation. As far as aesthetics - I really want to stay as true to the current look as possible - but don't know just how possible that could even be.

It would be more work and money, but you might consider keeping the fireplace you love as is, and building a RMH elsewhere in the house. Two heat sources with some distance between them would be better able to heat the house in the most extreme times, and if one has problems, you can still heat without needing propane or electricity with the other. It would also hopefully negate the expense and hassle of getting a bigger propane tank. It all comes down to whether you can make a RMH work elsewhere in the house. You said the fireplace is in a very large room, would the opposite side of the room be an option? Or maybe elsewhere may help heat more.

Double glazing the windows closest to the fireplace.
Installing a ceiling fan to push heat down from the ceiling.
Get a floor heating company out to inspect the floor heating.

Mike Haasl wrote:I suspect the issue is with heat quantity and delivery, not the construction.  While the construction could be better, it's similar to what my folks and I are working with.  

If you upgrade the fireplace I'd go with a wood burning insert or a free standing wood stove out on the floor that is vented into the fireplace chimney.  Unless the heat from the wood stove/RMH/insert can get around your house, you may end up with a warm living room and chilly bedrooms.

The primary heat for the house is a heat pump, which is why we've frozen, this last week - they're just not made for truly cold weather. There's a VERY good reason heat pumps aren't a 'thing', up by you. I grew up in Northern IL & MI, so I knew that (in theory), this house construction should be more than sufficient. I'd even looked into building something like this, back in the 80s, when I thought I wanted to live 'in a cabin in the woods, in Alaska' - so glad I decided against that, lol. The fireplace warms that room, and does a fair job of it. It also supplements the kitchen, somewhat. So, it's actually doing a good job - I just want to see if there's a way to improve it/make it work harder, with less fuel.  

We are keeping the upstairs closed off, via the French doors - but if we had guests, that wouldn't be an option, as the open floorplan is a basic part of the heat, for up there. If we have to deal with this again, we will temporarily seal off the upstairs, but we have (pet) guinea pigs up there, in an open floor pen, and didn't have a plan for keeping them warm. So, they have their own space heater, at the moment.

John C Daley wrote:Double glazing the windows closest to the fireplace.
Installing a ceiling fan to push heat down from the ceiling.
Get a floor heating company out to inspect the floor heating.

There is a ceiling fan, that I forgot to mention. I'm going to look into our paperwork, and see if I can find the info on the subfloor heating, too. That would probably be good to have handy for reference. I think the couple who built the house installed everything themselves - including that.

You won't believe how much heat a high efficiency wood stove insert will put out compared to your current setup. Make sure it has an outside vent for combustion air. Amazing!

Love the Irish Wolfhound BTW!

Jordan Holland wrote:It would be more work and money, but you might consider keeping the fireplace you love as is, and building a RMH elsewhere in the house. Two heat sources with some distance between them would be better able to heat the house in the most extreme times, and if one has problems, you can still heat without needing propane or electricity with the other. It would also hopefully negate the expense and hassle of getting a bigger propane tank. It all comes down to whether you can make a RMH work elsewhere in the house. You said the fireplace is in a very large room, would the opposite side of the room be an option? Or maybe elsewhere may help heat more.

Unfortunately the opposite side of that room is our bedroom wall, the open stairs, and the kitchen. The design is a very wall-space efficient 2,100sf, information the upstairs. The master bedroom is modestly sized. There is a ventless propane heater under the stairs. We are going to be getting those checked out, asap, so we can use them, if needed. That's why there is no real heat upstairs - the propane heater up there has not worked, since we got the house. The walls upstairs don't go to that cathedral ceiling, either. Yeh, the upstairs has its own 20ft cathedral ceiling. The rooms are separated by standard height walls, with an open ceiling, over the while thing, for light and air circulation. If we leave the French doors open, the downstairs freezes, and all the heat goes all the way up.

Heat pumps that are used around here work down to about 10F after that they still heat but they use electricity to do so, so you may be able to change the one you have out for one that will be more consistant. a stove would be more efficient that an open fire but it does ruin the asthetics. You can buy a little camera that plugs into your phone that shows where heat is leaving and cold entering the building, that might help to see where the main issues are and where you will get the most out of your money.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:You won't believe how much heat a high efficiency wood stove insert will put out compared to your current setup. Make sure it has an outside vent for combustion air. Amazing!

Love the Irish Wolfhound BTW!

A stove insert might be the easiest, most economical way to go, too. Thank you - we adore our sweet Bailey. She's a loveable goofwad!

So you can get a better idea of the room layout (lol, and the effects of tiring it into 'the Bailey zone')

There is a ventless propane heater under the stairs.

These items are banned where I live because of the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning.

We have had deaths with them because no fresh air is deliberately made available.

Ventless heaters are illegal here too, though I suppose I could try to have one shipped across the US border if I were inclined. For occasional use in a drafty house that deals mostly with too much heat, I can see it. In a sealed-up-tight northern house, forget it. (Though to be fair, the safety features have increased a surprising amount, including O2 sensors and more efficient catalytic burner coatings.)

This looks like a lovely masonry stove that could be modified into a RMH at a fraction of the cost if you want to build it yourself.
Certainly not a beginner project, but could be in the cards for you if you have your heart set to go in that direction with some local and online (Permies) help. :)
Usually a stove like this is placed in the centre of the room for maximum heat distribution and enjoyment from all around which of course would also require another chimney.

Max Edleson & Eva Edleson over at firespeaking.com have some beautiful masonry heaters they have installed you may also want to check out.

The closest thing I can see to this that would fit into the RMH realm would be to build an 8" batch box, with a large stone clad bell and have some of it made with metal to give some immediate heat into the room.
Firebox cores, doors and other hardware are all available from various suppliers which greatly help with construction if your not up for building them from scratch.

Gerry Parent wrote:

This looks like a lovely masonry stove that could be modified into a RMH at a fraction of the cost if you want to build it yourself.
Certainly not a beginner project, but could be in the cards for you if you have your heart set to go in that direction with some local and online (Permies) help. :)
Usually a stove like this is placed in the centre of the room for maximum heat distribution and enjoyment from all around which of course would also require another chimney.

Max Edleson & Eva Edleson over at firespeaking.com have some beautiful masonry heaters they have installed you may also want to check out.

The closest thing I can see to this that would fit into the RMH realm would be to build an 8" batch box, with a large stone clad bell and have some of it made with metal to give some immediate heat into the room.
Firebox cores, doors and other hardware are all available from various suppliers which greatly help with construction if your not up for building them from scratch.

Annnnd, again, this time, in the common  English, please?

Hi Carla;   I'll try to translate from Canadian for you.
Gerry is suggesting a large 8" batchbox with a large bell. It would sit in front of your current fireplace and utilize that chimney.
The bell would then get a rock veneer to match your chimney. A cast iron plate  would be incorporated to provide quick radiant heat.
The rest, he is telling you parts are available from me for the metal portions.  

Well, I'll follow somewhat Gerry's and Thomas's advices.




But I would say, transform that chimney into a bell. With a plunger tube.

Tom & Gerry, thank you! That does sound like a lot of real realestate, though... And time... and $$$... So, where would I even begin, to do a cost comparison, between that and sticking a high efficiency wood stove in there? I mean,  it's not just my decision. I gotsta sell it to the hubs, and he's a numbers guy.

What 'key' would the bell be in?

John C Daley wrote:What 'key' would the bell be in?

For myself, Key rovets, but that just for me!

Carla.

https://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/511/adventures-horizontal-feed

https://www.mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/kuznetsov/freegasprinciple.doc

http://kuznetsovstove.com/en/about-the-new-system

Hi Carla;   Yes, you would loose some room but not to much.  Bells can go up they do not have to spread out.    
Max's idea of using the current fireplace by bringing  a "plunger tube" down to the bottom is a very good one ! (I had not thought of it)
Your now sitting there... staring at your computer thinking , Tom what the xxxx is a plunger tube???  Ha Ha I'm right aren't I?
A plunger tube in your current fireplace would effectively bring the chimney down (via stove pipe) to within a few inches of the bottom.
A tall brick (or metal) bell is built in front of the existing fireplace  An 8" batchbox is built inside that bell.  You could even incorporate a short warming bench (  a NEW Bailey BED!) Like bailey needs another new bed...
Rock veneer is added to the bell to match your existing fireplace.

So time/costs???
I don't know what a suitable insert would cost installed.    Lets guess at $1000+  and you hire someone to do it .   I don't know, are these inserts wood burning or propane? Do they require electricity to work ? If they need power to run, then for me that would be a deal breaker.
Install time should be quick and painless as someone else is getting paid to do it.  

Now building a rmh and attaching it to your fireplace is a way warmer prospect.  I'm going to guess that cost would be a less but not a whole lot. You have a lot of veneer work needed to make it look good.
Personally I would hire a pro to put up the veneer.
The real difference is the time involved.   I could see this project taking you guys all summer to get finished. (so what its summer...) Not like you have any other projects going on... right???

Which one is better?   Well I'm biased so no contest for me, an RMH is always the better answer.
What one is right for you guys??? Well building a rmh is scary, until you build your first one.  After that Kati bar the door!
You'll be wanting everyone you know, to come check it out and start planning converting their home to an RMH as well!
After catching the dreaded rocket scientist illness... you will soon be telling complete strangers all about rmh's and why they should want one...
By next Spring YOU will be moderating the rmh forum!
And in 2024 You could be the first female president!  Running in the RMH party!  We will build you a box to stand on shorty so you can see over the podium!

thomas rubino wrote:  We will build you a box to stand on shorty so you can see over the podium!

A BATCH box...

thomas rubino wrote:Hi Carla;   Yes, you would loose some room but not to much.  Bells can go up they do not have to spread out.    
Max's idea of using the current fireplace by bringing  a "plunger tube" down to the bottom is a very good one ! (I had not thought of it)
Your now sitting there... staring at your computer thinking , Tom what the xxxx is a plunger tube???  Ha Ha I'm right aren't I?

That might depend on how you pronounce 'xxxx',  lol!

thomas rubino wrote:
A plunger tube in your current fireplace would effectively bring the chimney down (via stove pipe) to within a few inches of the bottom.
A tall brick (or metal) bell is built in front of the existing fireplace  An 8" batchbox is built inside that bell.  You could even incorporate a short warming bench (  a NEW Bailey BED!) Like bailey needs another new bed...
Rock veneer is added to the bell to match your existing fireplace.

So time/costs???
I don't know what a suitable insert would cost installed.    Lets guess at $1000+  and you hire someone to do it .   I don't know, are these inserts wood burning or propane? Do they require electricity to work ? If they need power to run, then for me that would be a deal breaker.
Install time should be quick and painless as someone else is getting paid to do it.  

Electric anything is a deal breaker here, too. Much of the reason for this whole idea is to have a reliable off-grid heat source. In fact, I already have a love/ hate thing going, with the converter already in it. Works well - as long as we have power. But, minus the power, we lose a lot of the heat, without that plugged in. And, I think it would be more likely that Charlie would claim it - she gets cold more easily, while Bailey is usually chomping at the bit, to get out and play in the snow.  

thomas rubino wrote:
Now building a rmh and attaching it to your fireplace is a way warmer prospect.  I'm going to guess that cost would be a less but not a whole lot. You have a lot of veneer work needed to make it look good.
Personally I would hire a pro to put up the veneer.
The real difference is the time involved.   I could see this project taking you guys all summer to get finished. (so what its summer...) Not like you have any other projects going on... right???

Ummmmmm....

thomas rubino wrote:
Which one is better?   Well I'm biased so no contest for me, an RMH is always the better answer.
What one is right for you guys??? Well building a rmh is scary, until you build your first one.  After that Kati bar the door!
You'll be wanting everyone you know, to come check it out and start planning converting their home to an RMH as well!
After catching the dreaded rocket scientist illness... you will soon be telling complete strangers all about rmh's and why they should want one...
By next Spring YOU will be moderating the rmh forum!
And in 2024 You could be the first female president!  Running in the RMH party!  We will build you a box to stand on shorty so you can see over the podium!

I've always thought the rmh was incredibly awesome, and there was a time when I was REALLY itching to get my hands dirty, in building them, in various forms. I'd still love to pretend to work really hard on one, in between all the other summer stuff! The more I dig into this, the less chance I think there is that it will happen, this year. You'd think that in 6b, we'd have plenty of summer, right? You know what my folks had, when they were setting up their homestead? Teenagers!! I need to borrow some teenagers, for the summer. I'm great at delegating...

So. I was FINALLY able to get the most highly recommended chimney sweep to come look at our fireplace. John had thought it was a good idea, but was relatively blasé - until he read the report. When I got home from work, he said my insistence on this had likely saved our lives. From Lucky Sweep (and no, the aptness of that name is NOT lost on me!):
"COMMENTS
Martin Hearth & Heating Fireplace and Chimney. Visual Inspection & Report today.
Natural stone facade. Rear wall and inner chase ceiling is comprised of combustible materials.
Prefabricated fireplace has partially covered lower louvres which may effect air flow/cooling of system.
Fractures are present in rear refractory panels. Damper is operational.
Inner lining of the chimney is disconnected entirely and offset approximately 1”. It is evident this condition has
existed for some time. Soot/creosote is visible between the flue walls.
Chimney termination height is 24” shorter than minimum manufacturer’s installation requirements.
Flashing component was not installed - missing entirely. The storm collar is not sealed.
SUMMARY
This fireplace and chimney is not suitable for use. The chimney system can no longer properly contain the
products of combustion. Due to the nature and severity of the defects, repairs should not be attempted. Martin
Fireplace is no longer in business and replacement parts are not available. Only complete removal and
replacement should be considered.
A fireplace shop is best suited to do this job. An additional contractor may be needed. I understand your desire is
to have a fireplace which produces efficient heating. Therefore your request to the retailer/installers should be
for a High Efficiency wood burning fireplace and chimney.
Note: This installation is not a candidate for a wood or gas “insert”. Full replacement is required."

So, we do not have a fireplace. We do not even have a non-electric back-up heat source, going into the winter - a terrifying thought, after the deep cold, of this past February. There are black marks on the inside of the logs of the exterior wall, behind the fireplace - the outside wall, in the picture... We've been saying prayers of gratitude, that our home was not lost in any of the MANY fires with which we've warmed ourhome, since we bought it, in Oct '18. My stomach is in knots. We may not be able to do anything about it, until at least next spring. The ENTIRE THING must come out.

thomas rubino wrote:Hi Carla;   I'll try to translate from Canadian for you.
Gerry is suggesting a large 8" batchbox with a large bell. It would sit in front of your current fireplace and utilize that chimney.
The bell would then get a rock veneer to match your chimney. A cast iron plate  would be incorporated to provide quick radiant heat.
The rest, he is telling you parts are available from me for the metal portions.  

Going off this and the above gorgeous possible fireplace, how would this change, considering the new information that our current fireplace now MUST be *completely* removed?

Hi Carla.

Good to hear you're safe.

I was wondering, do you use this kind of stuff in the USA?



I understand stud walls at the bottom is combustible material. But that also means you can knock part of it to make a proper bell, which will act as a structural part too, if well thought.

But, what us above has also combustible material? I mean, here, the liner showed above is meant for pozzolan, or clay flue elements, or old stone chimneys.

If anything remotely combustible is near'ish, we would use double wall insulated flues.



That would have to be at least 18cm away from any combustible material

But that stuff could at least save your winter.

If there isn't too many flaws in the chimney.

Hi Carla;
So glad you had that checked out before winter!

As I see things , you need an 8" roof jack installed before winter.
That would allow you to use any old wood stove for this season.

Next year you deal with what to do with the old dangerous chimney.
Also next year you can start on your 8" batchbox with bell build!!!  
(while doing all your other things)...

Start small , get thru this winter and let next year sort itself out over time.

This is not a job John and I can/will do, ourselves. First, we will have to have this one removed, though the facia is (at least theoretically) salvageable. Then, damage control/ repairs, then see where we are. But, there's pretty much a guarantee that there is damage to both the roof and wall adjacent to the fireplace.

Carla Burke wrote:
This fireplace and chimney is not suitable for use. The chimney system can no longer properly contain the
products of combustion. Due to the nature and severity of the defects, repairs should not be attempted. Martin
Fireplace is no longer in business and replacement parts are not available. Only complete removal and
replacement should be considered.

.. We've been saying prayers of gratitude, that our home was not lost in any of the MANY fires with which we've warmed ourhome, since we bought it, in Oct '18. My stomach is in knots.

Good Lord! I'm glad this was caught in time. A total hack job! Frankly it makes my blood boil -- how could anyone install something like this?

thomas rubino wrote:Hi Carla;
So glad you had that checked out before winter!

As I see things , you need an 8" roof jack installed before winter.
That would allow you to use any old wood stove for this season.

... Start small , get thru this winter and let next year sort itself out over time.

Agree 100%