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After receiving both pie and an apple for my post regarding Muscovy ducks for foie gras, the "gir bot" detected the words "mean" and "moderators" in the same sentence, assumed I was calling the moderators mean, and put my post on probation.  Oops.

Hi, Jocelyn!  Hi, Paul!
 
master steward
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Actually, gir bot is not that smart.

Instead, a human being on the staff activated gir bot.  Using my super powers, I can see which human being on the staff activated the probation thing and the "clue" that they sent.  

I have not read the post.   Are you asking that I examine the post to see if that staff member should get  a spanking?



 
Corrie Snell
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Oh!  Please don't spank them!  It is a simple case of mis-reading what I wrote.  Yes, though, please examine the post, if that's what's required for it to be made public.  I have since gone in to edit for clarification, but no so much with regards to the sentence containing the words "mean," and "moderators."  Jocelyn gave me the pie!
 
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Discussion about moderation is not allowed in posts, other than in the tinkering forum. Basically, the paragraph discussing moderation needs to be deleted for the post to meet publishing standards.
 
Corrie Snell
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My Purple Mooseage says, "please remove the moderation comments and suggestions that moderators are mean."  My post does not suggest that moderators are mean.  

I had no idea that "discussion about moderation is not allowed in posts," will you please provide the link to the thread mandating that?
 
Corrie Snell
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Hello?  Anybody home?

***crickets***
 
paul wheaton
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I'm here.  

Is your post still on probation?  If so, give me link to the post and i will have a look.


 
Corrie Snell
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Yes, it is.  Is the rule Joseph mentions above about not discussing moderation, except in the tinkering forum, true?


https://permies.com/t/76337/critters/Muscovy-foie-gras-worth
 
paul wheaton
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I work very hard to not make rules - that way, I can say that all the rules of the site fit into two words: "be nice".  

Everything else is all managed based on whatever crazy is in my head at any moment.  

It does seem that we have had some really awful people in the past attempt to change a thread about plums into a thread about censorship and how paul wheaton (that would be me) is a douchebag.  So, in time, these awful people have, in a way, made it so stuff about how the site is managed really needs to be taken up in the tinkering forum.  

Awful people have come and done awful things over and over, and the result is that the staff have now been trained to certain triggers.   It would appear that you have stumbled upon such a trigger.

I looked at what you wrote and it seems you are trying to help the staff and guide the discussion in a healthy direction.  So it would be an exception.  

At the same time, for every exception, that introduces complications:

- the staff get confused ("i'm not sure what to do anymore - and frankly, i'm a volunteer and i would rather visit with people about permaculture stuff than learn more complexities about pseudo-rules")

- bad guys get leverage/fuel ("why the fuck am I being persecuted and not corrie?  You better have a fucking perfect explanation that meets my psycho-standards OR ELSE!")

I would like to ask, for the sake of simplicity, to edit that part out and then everything can go back to simply "crazy" (instead of "crazy with 2% more stomach ache.")

 
Corrie Snell
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Thank you, Paul, sincerely, for taking the time to explain this to me.  It seems that you understand where I was coming from.  The OP had come to Permies with his very first post(!) to ask a question, and instead of responses addressing that question, a few of the first responders were more or less "should-ing on him!"  Could this be the reason that the OP has since gone silent in the thread?  I was merely trying to assure him that there are publishing standards, and that the hard-working moderators would uphold them.

I would be happy to edit my post, but I think that I will then have to click "Report!" on the "should-ing" replies...surely that element of this topic is meant to be discussed in the Cider Press

Thanks again, Paul!

And, an especially big "THANK YOU!!!" to the Permies staff!

 
paul wheaton
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I confess that I have not read the thread.  But, yes, you might want to click on "report" to get some stuff sorted out.

 
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For me, it's about chaff.

I just spent the morning reading a thread on another forum.  The thread was 18 pages (nearly 500 posts) long and only about 12 posts were relevant to the topic.  The rest were chaff like "nifty" "I never thought of that" "are you sure you spelled (sic) that correctly?" "could you split the above post to a new thread" "no, I don't think that's relevant" "ops I already did" "oh, well that sucks" "okay, I put the two threads back together again"  "I like your avatar picture" "oh thanks, it's my second cousins, neighbour's dog's best friend's human"

But they don't mind because in a month someone will ask the same question all over again because they don't have a spare 4 hours to read 18 pages of chaff.  And the chaff fest will begin again.  (can you tell I'm annoyed at having to waste my morning gleaning those 12 nuggets of gold in the pile of chaff?)

On permies we encourage perennial discussion.  We also want our posters to look good.  If someone came to a thread 10 or 20 years from now to read about composting or whatever the topic was, and then sees someone they don't know wondering off topic about moderation which is something that doesn't interest them because they just want to read about compost, then it's not going to encourage them to stick around and keep reading.  I know when I'm new to a site, I find a discussion about moderation distasteful because all I want to read about is the topic that brought me there.  
 
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The original question in that thread was

So, how long and how much should we force feed the ducks before their livers are ready to harvest?



I think in this case 'never' is a perfectly appropriate opinion to express as a response as it is certainly a wholly unnatural thing to do to any animal and I personally would consider it to be grossly disrespectful if not actually cruel and not the sort of thing I would ever want to encourage any of our members to do.

As for your own post, I think after the the last couple of lines are removed it will be fine to publish. As it is, it's too confrontational and controlling and off-topic.
 
r ranson
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Permies is about finding a better way.  Better than what we have in the world today.  Better than organic.  "Better" as in a way that works in harmony with the living world.  For example, I don't try to teach a dog to lay eggs.  I get a hen.  

The topic of the thread in question is borderline for this site.  There was a long discussion among the staff about keeping or squashing the topic altogether.  But it's an interesting topic.  I think the "it's not something I would do" side has been covered well.  I would like to be able to publish your post to represent a different point of view.  I think your post is lovely except for the last two lines.

You're not a moderator here.  It's not your role to tell other people how to behave, that's what we are for.  That's why we give you a report button in case you see something that you would like a moderator to review.

When moderators do make comments reminding people about publishing standards, these comments vanish in a day or two.  Cluttering up the site with moderation discussion scares off new readers.  When we post on a forum like this, our audience is not the half dozen people in the conversation we are writing to, it's the thousands of readers who don't participate.  

If I was coming to this site for the first time and wanted to read about that topic, I would enjoy your post until I got to those last two lines - then I would see you are not a moderator and I would think "why is this person being so bossy?  Maybe what they said above isn't written out of love and respect after all.  So I guess I won't give it much weight."   I can see that's not what you intend - but that's how it comes across.  

Please work with us because I do think your post is worth publishing.  
 
r ranson
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If you want to add those lines to your signature (so they appear at the bottom of every post) that would be lovely and encouraged.  
 
Corrie Snell
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Burra, the problem with your answer of 'never' is that 'never' force-feeding wouldn't produce foie gras.  Producing foie gras is the OP's goal, and his question asks if anyone here on Permies can help him reach that goal.  Instead, what your reply, and a couple of the other original replies in that thread, do is "should on" the OP.  I think Paul makes it pretty clear in this thread that "should-ing" doesn't comply with his overarching "be nice" rule, especially on a topic that, in my understanding of how this site works, is exactly the type of thing meant to be discussed only in The Cider Press.

The other day, after reading through the thread in question, I was moderately incensed (is that a thing?).  First off, the common practice on this site of welcoming the OP after his very first post to Permies, hadn't happened.  Then, as is being discussed, I felt as if he'd been smothered by the "should-ers."  It brought to mind the cartoon Paul posted at the top of the second page on the "permies publishing standards" thread (sorry, don't know how to link directly to a specific post), but instead of turning a boring gray color and melting into the group, the OP seems to have just dropped out of the conversation (at least that's my hope).  I felt determined to rectify the situation, as I saw it, by writing a good post with information useful to the OP.  I wrote my post, received an apple AND pie from Jocelyn Campbell, "Master Steward," for said post, but then later had my post put on probation by some other moderator.  Huh?

The Purple Mooseage I received explaining the probation said, "please remove the moderation comments and suggestions that moderators are mean."  Huh?

The line in question from my original post was: "Please let me know how it goes.  PM me if you feel more comfortable, but the moderators on this site WILL delete posts that are non-conforming to the publishing standards, so hopefully no one will get mean about what they think you "should" do.   "

Now, obviously I did not say that the moderators are mean.  But, my Purple Mooseage said otherwise.  At this point, I thought it was all a big misunderstanding, and that the gir bot had found the combination of the words "mean," and "moderators," and then made an ass out of "u" and me.  But, as it turns out, it was human error, and my post really was mis-read.

The other part, the "please remove moderation comments," was requested again in the above post by Joseph Lofthouse.  Throughout my years of using this site I have read and re-read what I consider to be the core three threads that Paul started, discussing how to behave on this site:
"permies.com publishing standards"
"Did you just 'should' on me?"
"be nice"

I understand what he's saying and respect his authority and have always done my best to make sure my posts here comply.  But, in reading those, I had never seen anything saying that, "Discussion about moderation is not allowed in posts."  I was super confused.  All I had meant to do was reassure the OP that the site's moderators would protect him (to put it in simpler terms).  And, I know I've seen moderation discussed in other threads.  So, I was still confused.  As we can see above, Paul has stepped in, explained this "rule" (for lack of a better term) AND deemed what I wrote to be "an exception," but...

Now fully understanding the situation, and not wanting to be the reason Paul has 2% more stomach ache, I removed the sentence discussing moderation.  I replaced it with links to the "publishing standards" and "should-ing" threads, which I feel accomplishes the same goal I initially had: gently reminding those responding to Marc (the OP) that they need to "be nice," and at the same time attempting to assuage the effect I imagine the two "should-ers" have had on Marc and his first experience here on this site.  

I also did click "!Report," for the two replies that I saw as violating the "should-ing" rule, and the Cider-Press-only-topic standards.  One has since been deleted.  The other one is still up. (I'm not at all saying that just because I clicked "!Report" that the moderators "should" do my bidding.). *****I'm probably going to get in biiiiiiig trouble for this***** The fact that the other one was left up, despite the fact that its content is discussing politics and ethics (CIDER PRESS!!!), makes me feel that the moderators whose ethics are being offended by the idea of a Permie producing foie gras, are abusing their power and playing God/Paul.  This thread has been on the site for two months.  It hasn't been deleted altogether.  If it had been, that would indicate that Paul Wheaton, the owner of this site, deems foie gras production a topic that he does not wish to see discussed here.  Instead, Jocelyn Campbell, Paul's co-"Master Steward," has actually participated in the thread in a positive and encouraging way!  (I see r ranson is also a Master Steward...seeing her reply as I'm still in the process of writing this post...)

Top all this off with the fact that my post is still on probation!

Burra, are you saying that my edits to remove discussion of moderation and replace it with links to the "should-ing" and "publication standards" threads are the reason?  Or, were you referring to the original version?
 
 
Corrie Snell
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I would like to quickly point out that I have continued to stand firm on my belief and understanding that the politics and ethics of foie gras production is a topic to be discussed in the cider press forum.  This is the reason I will be clicking "!report" on Burra's above post.
 
r ranson
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If someone comes here and asks, "how much Miracle Grow should I apply to my lawn", that thread will be removed.  The topic of force-feeding animals is a new one for us, so we thought we would test the waters and see how it would go instead of removing it outright.  It's taken up a shit-load of moderator time.  Volunteer moderators who would rather be out there doing lovely things instead of discussing if this topic fits with what we are hoping to accomplish on this forum.


My personal preference would be to have more than one point of view presented in that thread.  That is up to you.  

Two problems here.  

1) It's not your role here to "gently reminding those responding to Marc (the OP) that they need to "be nice,""

2) The rest of the post reads like you're telling us how to moderate so I got bored and stopped reading.  


 
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Corrie Snell wrote:

The other day, after reading through the thread in question, I was moderately incensed (is that a thing?).  First off, the common practice on this site of welcoming the OP after his very first post to Permies, hadn't happened.  Then, as is being discussed, I felt as if he'd been smothered by the "should-ers."  It brought to mind the cartoon Paul posted at the top of the second page on the "permies publishing standards" thread (sorry, don't know how to link directly to a specific post), but instead of turning a boring gray color and melting into the group, the OP seems to have just dropped out of the conversation (at least that's my hope).  I felt determined to rectify the situation, as I saw it, by writing a good post with information useful to the OP.  I wrote my post, received an apple AND pie from Jocelyn Campbell, "Master Steward," for said post, but then later had my post put on probation by some other moderator.  Huh?  

 

There wasn't a big welcome because we couldn't tell if the OP was coming as a troll. We get a LOT of troll and spam posts from first-time posters. Probably 10+/day. So, when we see someone come on to permies and ask about force-feeding ducks, we can't tell if they are trolling or if they have a serious question. We all discussed whether or not to delete the post, but decided instead to fill it full of lovely ideas. None of us want to "should" the OP, so we all just put forth our own ideas and suggestions. None of us, either, have force-fed ducks, though Burra, R, and my self all keep ducks. So, while we have no experience with force-feeding, we do have experience with duck-keeping, so we shared what knowledge we had, in hopes that it would be helpful. We're thankful that you shared other information, and did so in a very nice, reasonable way.

I think the problem with your last few sentences, is that they felt like they were "should"ing the moderators into allowing your viewpoint. I'm pretty sure that wasn't your intention, just as it wasn't our intention to "should" the OP into not making foie gras. But, now we're in a bit of a muddle, with people all thinking each other "should"ed them. I think if you put the two links into your signature, that would fix things.

Oh! And to link to a specific post, right-click the little image next to the "posted __ hour ago", and then "copy link address" and you'll have a link to a specific post!
 
Burra Maluca
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Burra, the problem with your answer of 'never' is that 'never' force-feeding wouldn't produce foie gras.  



At the right time of year, especially after acorn season, some of our muscovies have enlarged fatty livers.

They'll happily run after acorns you throw for them.  My son used to spend ages playing with our old muscovy drake at acorn season.









Burra, are you saying that my edits to remove discussion of moderation and replace it with links to the "should-ing" and "publication standards" threads are the reason?  Or, were you referring to the original version?  



Those links and accompanying comment have no place in that thread.  The links could be part of a signature, but not in that post.  If the are removed the post can be reinstated.  If not I shall delete it permanently.  That is my last word on the subject as I have been totally disgusted at the level of control you have attempted to exert on the matter, and the amount of moderator time it's taken up, and the demands you are making of me personally.  I have better things to do right now than argue with you.  I do not consider that force feeding any animal is respectful in any way, and permies is not about raising animals in disrespectful ways.  

I'm locking this thread now and wish to hear no more about this matter.  
 
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