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steward
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This image shows one of my many concerns. I think a lot of communities on the internet do this, and this what I don't want for permies.com.



 
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Paul, I think if you are going to have a "Living" forum where people are asking for suggestions for their health, it would be easier to be able to use the vocabulary that that those who practice Natural Health use every day. This means being able to describe various types of food and their impact on our bodies -- especially if we are substantiating it with outside sources and research. Sometimes that is going to include words like "animal products". If you recall back in the 1980s even the medical establishment was recommending big reduction if not elimination of animal products if they wanted to get rid of heart disease. Nobody is maligning anyone or judging anyone or trying to convert anyone. If people don't like the answer, they don't have to follow the suggestion.

It would be nice to not have to tip-toe around and have to leave vague incomplete answers.

 
Mother Tree
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Emily - you were sent a PM with the problem outlined. In this case

This needs to be reworded to allow for other people's opinions. The suggestion that only one person has 'the answer' is not acceptable here.



If you had removed the first sentence the post would have been fine, but you left it in despite editing the post three times, so I gave up and removed it. The problem was nothing to do with vocabulary or any of the other things you mention, only what was sent to you in the PM, ie your claim that a particular person is the ONLY one who makes sense. That is not acceptable here. Permies requires that you allow for other people's opinions, and your claim did not.

 
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I would agree that forums work much better with enforced guidelines. However, I find the choice to disallow GMO and herbicide discussions from the larger permaculture discussion quite baffling.
 
Burra Maluca
Mother Tree
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A Walton wrote:I would agree that forums work much better with enforced guidelines. However, I find the choice to disallow GMO and herbicide discussions from the larger permaculture discussion quite baffling.



Permies.com is a place for discussing better ways, and for people who have moved beyond such things. There are plenty of other sites where such things can be discussed.
 
steward
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I find the choice to disallow GMO and herbicide discussions...


Those subjects tend to get people all heated up, and the threads most often become rants.
Here at permies, we are looking for better ways to do things, rather than rant about the bad ways to do things. Rather than being mad at the bad guys, we would rather devote our time to the good guys. There are thousands of sites on the internet where those subjects are the topic of the day. Let them host those subjects as they see fit. We chose not to delve on the evil, but aspire to achieve better ways to solve our problems.

 
Emily Harris
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Burra Maluca wrote:Emily - you were sent a PM with the problem outlined. In this case

This needs to be reworded to allow for other people's opinions. The suggestion that only one person has 'the answer' is not acceptable here.



If you had removed the first sentence the post would have been fine, but you left it in despite editing the post three times, so I gave up and removed it. The problem was nothing to do with vocabulary or any of the other things you mention, only what was sent to you in the PM, ie your claim that a particular person is the ONLY one who makes sense. That is not acceptable here. Permies requires that you allow for other people's opinions, and your claim did not.



Sorry. I read what was in red italics at the top of the post and I didn't see anything like that. I was completely baffled and started to read through the 2 pages of posts of rules and picked up on what I thought might be the problem.I know I would have gotten it if the offensive verbiage had been underlined or highlighted with a reason given as to why it is not "meet the standards".



 
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I see this as being at someone's house, if you curse in front of their kids they may ask you not to, and talk to their children about that was not within the house rules....

Difference is that no one says " hey kid I can say ( curse) if I want to and it's not right for your mom to stop me."

I think also if you do something wrong, it's not personal, just accept it and move on.......I think forgiveness is abound here, unless there is some auto kick out thing that exists...for some terrible choice or another....
 
master steward
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The rules of this forum seemed a bit baffling to me at first. I spent a lot of time reading other people's posts before I really got the hang of it enough to post my own thoughts.

My interpretation of the rules are like this (and this is MY interpretation, not the actual rules. (The actual rules seem to be in the Be Nice thread):

  • Write about things that focus on solutions rather than the problem
  • Write in a way that allows encourages discussion and points of view that may differ from your own
  • Write in a way that avoids "'tis not" "'tis too" from developing
  • Avoid suggesting that anyone else might be less than perfect. They may in fact be less than perfect, but this is not the place to point that out.

  • Or to say it in another way for those of you who love this kind of doublespeak as much as I do: Let's have a solution oriented experience that explores a diverse range of view points, avoids ad hominem fallacies and prevents cross monologuing.

    I have a set of questions I ask myself each time I write a post. BEFORE I press Submit. It seems to work. It also means that I write about 6 posts for every one I publish. I'm pleased with what I do submit, and I'm often glad the next day that I didn't submit something I thought was absolutely awesome yesterday.



    It's difficult to see this from the outside, but I suspect that the moderators work hard to keep this place friendly. Whenever we discuss things that aren't exactly mainstream... like growing your own food for example... it can trigger controversy. I get the feeling that the some issues have risen up in the past, with many hurt feelings all 'round, and the staff of this site have started to notice a pattern. This sentence appears, then three posts later everything blows up. So, maybe, when they see that same sentence again, they take action early to prevent disaster.

    That's at least my guess.

    This kind of moderation may seem heavy from some points of view. I love it because it's exactly this kind of hard work that has made this an awesome forum to participate in.

    The people who hang out at permies.com (both staff and forum participants), are some of the most knowlageable people I've found. What's more, they are open to new ideas and always encouraging people to try things for themselves instead of blindly believing the status quo. I am grateful for the chance to chat with them.



    But of course, this style of moderation doesn't suit everyone. Thankfully there are many other forums on the internet that have milder moderation. They don't necessarily have the same knowledge base as this site, but they have that freedom some people seem to crave.
     
    pollinator
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    paul wheaton wrote:

    Another thing is that some folks are certain that their path is the only path and that other paths are unacceptable. That sort of thing is unacceptable to me.

    I tend to delete anything that suggests that anybody on permies.com is less than perfect. I'll even delete stuff that suggests that somebody that might come to permies.com is less than perfect. Or if a group of people is less than perfect and somebody on permies.com might be part of that group.

     
    Tyler Ludens
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    paul wheaton wrote:
    This isn't a site for debate. If you wish to debate these topics, you will need to find a different site, or start your own. Debate is for intellectual sword play. This site is for the more gentle souls of the internet to share their experiences and ideas.

     
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    I have been lurking on permies.com for a good while and only recently made a couple of posts. However, I didn't see this thread or the 'be nice' thread before I posted. Also I still do not completely understand how 'apples' 'pies' etc work.
    So could I make a suggestion? Could there be a 'welcome to permies forums' post put above all the forums so that newbies could read about how the site works and what is and is not acceptable to our Great Leader the Lord Paul? Maybe with links to these important posts, so in that way people would be less inclined to jump in and offend others without understanding the ground rules? Having the threads about how to behave and how to post in an acceptable way hidden at the very bottom of the forums means that a newbie has to root around a good lot before finding them. Unless maybe that is the plan I love this site. I love the rules! As someone above said, its about being polite in someone's house and not starting a row with the host or another guest when invited for dinner.
     
    Burra Maluca
    Mother Tree
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    Cathy - try these two links

    universal welcome thread

    how permies.com works
     
    Tyler Ludens
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    I have to admit to being afraid to post on certain topics because I think my ideas are unpopular. But this is more about me being a baby chicken guts than about the forums.
     
    raven ranson
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    Tyler Ludens wrote:I have to admit to being afraid to post on certain topics because I think my ideas are unpopular. But this is more about me being a baby chicken guts than about the forums.



    You're not alone. There are topics I won't post on because my views are vocal and unpopular.

    I have a little list next to my computer. Two parts. First is things never to write about where the public can see because it upsets me and other people. The other part is a list of topics where I need to write, then walk away. These topics, I write my reply (copy, paste and save somewhere), make a cuppa tea, then come back and decide if it adds anything to the discussion. 9 out of 10 times, I delete this kind of post.

    Sometimes it takes several drafts before I can write something that is both productive and agrees with the Publishing Standards here. Other times, I just have to walk away as it's going to create too much conflict.
     
    Tyler Ludens
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    paul wheaton wrote:
    Another thing is that some folks are certain that their path is the only path and that other paths are unacceptable. That sort of thing is unacceptable to me.

    I tend to delete anything that suggests that anybody on permies.com is less than perfect. I'll even delete stuff that suggests that somebody that might come to permies.com is less than perfect. Or if a group of people is less than perfect and somebody on permies.com might be part of that group.



    Hint
     
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    first post on page one.....

    paul wheaton wrote:I've expressed this in the past, but i am now making this thread to, perhaps, express it in a slightly different way.

    Some sites on the internet will publish anything that anybody submits. This is not one of those sites. People will submit all sorts of stuff here, and most of what is submitted meets my publishing criteria. And the rest is removed.

    I want to talk about permaculture innovation. I wanna talk about eco building. I wanna talk about alternatives to the grid and saving energy .... there are hundreds of things I wanna talk about. And there are thousands of things that are not a fit for permies.com.

    If people want to talk about GMO's, herbicides, politics, religion they really need to find someplace else.

    Another thing is that innovation requires a lot of brainstorming. Along the way comes stories like "I once heard of a guy that ..." or "didn't I read somewhere that you could ...." and this sort of attempt to figure things out is not helped by comments like "Citation needed." or "that's bullshit." or "prove it."

    Another thing is that some folks are certain that their path is the only path and that other paths are unacceptable. That sort of thing is unacceptable to me.

    I tend to delete anything that suggests that anybody on permies.com is less than perfect. I'll even delete stuff that suggests that somebody that might come to permies.com is less than perfect. Or if a group of people is less than perfect and somebody on permies.com might be part of that group.

    I am supportive of vegans and omnis alike. So I don't allow bashing by one of the other.

    I created these forums to talk about a few things I want to talk about, in a limited way I want to talk about them.

    As time passes, I hope to expand on my thoughts in this space. And I invite people to ask for clarity.





     
    Tyler Ludens
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    reminder
     
    Tyler Ludens
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    paul wheaton wrote:Something that I have said several dozen times in the past which appears to not be covered here is:   I prefer to see posts that offer "my position" rather than "the truth".  I've deleted a lot of stuff with "the truth".  The reason is that if somebody posts "the truth" and a second somebody has an alternative position, then posting the alternative feels a lot like entering into conflict - so it is less likely to get posted.  And it is that alternative that I want to see shared on this site. 


     
    Tyler Ludens
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    paul wheaton wrote:
    Another thing is that some folks are certain that their path is the only path and that other paths are unacceptable.  That sort of thing is unacceptable to me.

     
    paul wheaton
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    A good time to post one of my favorites ...




    Power corrupts.   Absolute power corrupts absolutely is kinda neat!






     
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