Differences between rope making and twine making (SKIP)

Nov 28, 2020 12:25:14

I offered to take on the Spinning List of BBs in the Peppers In Action forum and I would like some guidance on the difference between the "Spin Twine" and Twist Rope" bb.

Are you wanting a difference in process or a difference in diameter?

Butcher Twine has a String Diameter of 2/23" and has 16 strands that are individually spun then plied together: a spin and ply construction like yarn.

Rope can be made using a "rope braid" technique and commercially has a spin and ply structure where the singles are spun very tightly, then 2 or more singles are plied together. The very tightly I refer to is called the initial over-twist where the strands are spun until a certain percentage (often 10-15%) of the starting length is reduced by the amount of twist that has been added.

If you want to see an example, I did the spin and ply method and the rope braid method when making my twine bb.

The Leonardo Rope Machine or a DIY project are two ways to make what I think you are calling ~~twine~~ rope.
(updated per first two posts below)

Please advise!

Nov 28, 2020 13:16:48

Opalyn Rose wrote:

The Leonardo Rope Machine or a DIY Rope Machine are two ways to make what I think you are calling twine.

Please advise!

These links didn't look (maybe because the google links are so long they didn't copy right), but looking at the code when I copied, it looks like you said Leonardo Rope Machine and DIY Rope Machine as ways to make twine/rope. (I honestly am still really confused about the differences between rope and twine, too!).

Nov 28, 2020 15:30:46

I chatted with R Ranson a bit about this. The crucial part seems to be with the PROCESS, not the size.

Rope can be made of various strands of yarn or thread or twine. The important part is making sure it is twined carefully and with the right tension (like with a rope-maker).

Twine is like 2-ply scratchy, rough, durable yarn. It could probably be more than 2 ply. The main part is that it's rough and durable, and not something you'd want to knit a sweater with. And it's not put under the careful tension and twisting that rope is.

I think, but I'm not 100% positive, that the Leonardo Rope Machine and DIY Rope Machine are both ways to make rope.

Twining can be made in the different ways people made twine in the Twine BB. And probably some other ways, too.

I'm going to just cheat and quote R here:

Rope = twisting multiple strands of yarn/string/thread/twine together in a specific way - usually using a rope maker.
It requires very careful tension and control of the twist as it becomes a rope.
The method is similar to plying yarn, only with far more twist and excruciating control.

See the way they have a special jig for controlling the twist as it enters the rope?

https://youtu.be/NUHN3q6k24s

Twine - basically like a yarn made from roughly processed cellulose materials like bark, roots, leaves, or bast fibres. This can be very rough, usually prickly, and made quickly to do a job. This is made by twisting and plying like yarn, or can be made in a one-stage method where twisting and plying happens at the same stage as in the West Coast Cowichan first nations method for making twine out of nettle skin for fishing nets.

And of course... the big problem is the grey areas. The language is so old and used over such a large amount of space and time that there are variations and nuances to the meaning of each word depending on the location, century, and context it's used.

But that's the beauty of PEP - we're building it from scratch so we can choose which definitions we want to use.

Nov 28, 2020 17:17:17

Thanks for the update Nicole.

Since I messed up the links above (and have fixed it for future readers), here are the devices I was referring to

Leonardo Rope Making Machine:

I've made 100s of yards of cordage using a Leonardo rope making machine (and a drill) and it works great!

DIY Rope Making Machine:

Nov 28, 2020 17:21:33

Nicole Alderman wrote:I chatted with R Ranson a bit about this. The crucial part seems to be with the PROCESS, not the size.

Rope can be made of various strands of yarn or thread or twine. The important part is making sure it is twined carefully and with the right tension (like with a rope-maker).

Twine is like 2-ply scratchy, rough, durable yarn. It could probably be more than 2 ply. The main part is that it's rough and durable, and not something you'd want to knit a sweater with. And it's not put under the careful tension and twisting that rope is.

Nicole, Thank you for the information. I was thinking of making it more complex than your description. I'll use the information you shared from R. Ranson and tackle making these pages soon.

Nov 28, 2020 22:37:24

next question:
The Textile Straw Spinning list of bb says
spin twine - more than 50 yards (1 point)
twist rope - more than 25 yards (1 point)

Given the above posts (with rope using a rope making machine and twine being hand-made), I wanted to double-check the language used and the quantities on the bb page as I find it confusing.

both twine and rope have twist added (often in different ways and different amounts) so how should we differentiate the processes?

it is much easier to make rope than to make twine based on my experience making the twine from raw plant material for the sand bb and making 100's of yards of rope using a Leonardo Rope Maker with premade singles, so the finished product amounts seem backward unless the requirement are to start with unspun fiber for both projects.

I propose the Badge Page lanuage:
Make xx yards of Twine (1 point)
Make xx yards of Rope (1 point)

Dec 05, 2020 09:54:11

https://permies.com/wiki/151922/pep-textiles/Textiles-Spin-List-Badge-Bits#1189189

So we are getting into technical aspects of twist, spin, ... these words have very specific meanings - but those meanings have moved and changed as our language has changed and grown. Even using the modern technical meaning of these words in modern English, we encounter different definitions depending on what country and industry we are talking from.

For this context. Speaking generally (with the idea that there are always going to be exceptions)

Spin - refers to adding twist to an untwisted fibre source/mass.
Twist Rope - twisting different strand together in a specif manner under tension (so like plying, only a lot more twist, under tension, and with something to control the point the twist enters the rope).
Rope - Thick, strong, cord-like structure: at least 3 strands, each strand having 2 or more threads; strands are formed up-twist, and the rope is laid down-twist of the strands. Rope cannot be made through normal plying techniques. Also made through braiding and plaiting, although technically not rope (this would probably be cord). (if you want to geek out lookup Hawser and other chandlery related lines)
twist (in general) - rotation about a common longitudinal axis. In practice of spinning, plying, and rope-making, one end of the item being twisted is fixed or non-rotating, relative to other, or working, end. Also refers to the Turns about its own axis, per unit of length... TPI (turns/twist per inch).

Twine: stiff, hard0-twisted cords made from vegetable bast, bark, or leaf fibre, as in binder twine, bale twine, bagging twine. Sometimes made from paper or plastic. In this context we aren't using plastic or paper because we are encouraging harvesting the materials from scratch rather than reclaiming materials. For the BB badge we are also defining twine as having at least two plies.

Since the words have so many ways of using them, when there's doubt, I'm using The Alden Amos Big Book of Handspinning for the tiebreaker.

Is that helping?

I updated the points.

spin twine - more than 50 yards (1 point)
twist rope - more than 50 yards (1 point)

I think twisting twine is much easier and faster. It also doesn't require gathering or making fancy equipment. All you need are your hands. It also doesn't require the skill to control the high twist as ropemaking does.

But I don't see why they can't have the same requirements.

I think the goal here is to get to "good enough" and polish it later on. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. We'll know where the polish needs to happen as more people acomplish BBs.

Mar 15, 2021 02:07:03

I ran across this video today. It shows making rope from old sarees (saris?). It looks like people are lined up to have their old fabric turned into useful (and beautiful cord). Would something like this count for rope making in SKIP?

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