Help with classic savory pie recipes from the UK

We've discovered, over the course of at least 5yrs, that I can't eat conventionally grown wheat. In this time, we (my hubby, John, and I) have ruled out gluten, as the culprit - and I'm SO relieved! We noticed, through a great deal of the painfully slow - and often downright painful - process of elimination, it wasn't gluten. We've finally narrowed the problem down to stuff sprayed on the wheat, prior to harvest, or the stuff added to it, for 'enrichment' - or both. {I'm not going into our full process to get to that, because that's a very individual process, and not helpful here. I'm not going into anything beyond the quick back story, and our search.}

So, we've happily discovered that I'm perfectly fine, as long as I stick to organic, non-gmo grains, particularly if I'm using wheat. That's lovely, for me, because I'm not fond of most of the gluten free options, and, buying what I actually want in an organic also tends to be substantially less expensive than the gluten-free options - talk about win-win! Then, through something else I'm planning, I was reminded that in general, those things that make me so sick are actually banned, in the UK, and most of Europe. Interestingly, even the prices of the imported items are quite competitive with the gluten free versions, so I tried an old favorite - Walker shortbread cookies - to see if I was tempting fate, since those imported items have no need to label 'organic' or 'non-gmo'. Again, I had no problems, and was in seventh heaven!

Fast forward a few weeks, to yesterday, and we're very frustrated with a shipment of food that we had ordered because it all said it was 'British', etc - labels we KNOW are from the UK, etc (because we've ordered them, or John's aunt brought them from Scotland, before she passed). When it all came, only 3 items were made primarily from ingredients from the UK, and none of it was made there. We were so excited to be getting 'authentic' British & Scottish meat pies, made in the UK. So, John put into the big freezer, while we decide what to do with them, since they can't be returned.
We were looking to get the authentic textures and flavors that neither of us has had, in years, as a reminder to our taste buds, so we can try to replicate them, using the organic products we *can* get here.

For example, the sausage rolls and meat pies (which are a big percentage of what we purchased) , made in the UK, EVERYTHING about them is different that those made here, with the possible exception of the thickness of the 'gravy' portion of the filling. We are pretty sure we can get those flavors and textures in these things, but being made from 'conventional' American base products, I can't even sample them, and John won't eat them in front of me, because he knows how much I've missed them, and feels it would just be cruel. Plus, while he's a retired chef, pastry crusts have always been his nemesis, and are definitely my territory, in our kitchen, as is pretty much anything else in which the primary ingredient is 'flour', lol.

I haven't had any of those lovely items since the 2000s, when I used to attend the annual Highland Games, in Glasgow, Kentucky, which happily, had a 1st generation ex-pat Scottish family who made them from recipes passed down through generations... John's mom was also a 1st gen ex-pat, and used to take him back to Scotland on alternating years, to visit her mother & siblings (the years in between, her sibs came to the USA to visit) - but, he hasn't been there, since his early teens. So, we both remember the vastness of the differences - but it's been so long, neither of us feels confident in replicating them, correctly, based on those memories. They weren't something his mom made, either - or we might have stood a chance.  But, we haven't trusted recipes found on the web, because... well... *anyone* can claim their recipe is "authentic", but even the big name chefs always add their own twists. We're pretty confident we can get all the ingredients (serious advantage to living in farm country!) We just wanted the flavor/ texture comparisons.

I'm looking for those recipes for meat (pork, kidney, steak & mince) pies, Scotch meat pies, pasties, and sausage rolls (and any I've missed!) that have been well-loved, and handed down through generations. Your help would be GREATLY appreciated!!

Hi Carla,
That's so good that your food choices have opened up again (I wonder how many people think they have a wheat allergy, when actually it's a gick allergy?).
I'm intrigued by the differences you say you have in the US from the UK. Hopefully you can find equivalent ingredients to make some pretty good pies.
As regards recipes it's a bit difficult to know where to start! I don't think my mum used to make raised pies at all although she was pretty adventurous with ingredients. I think she didn't have the time for much experimentation so stuck to basic shortcrust pastry for most recipes (if she didn't cheat with a bit of shop bought puff pastry for sausage rolls.
I still make a lovely sausage, bacon and egg pie, which I think Mum invented. I often make it with a rough puff pastry, which is a cheat puff pastry and doesn't take long to make:
Rough puff pastry:
Sift 8Oz plain flour into a bowl.
Cut 3Oz lard and 3Oz butter into 1/2 inch chunks and stir into flour without breaking them up.
add about 5 fluid Oz of cold water to mix to a stiff dough using a round bladed knife
On a floured board, roll the pastry out to a rectangle three times as long as wide.
Fold the bottom up and the top down to make a square, turn so the folded edge is at the sides and seal the other edges with a rolling pin.
Roll and fold three more times turning the same way each time
chill for 30 minutes
Roll out to 1/8 inch thick and you're supposed to chill again before baking. I can't say I normally bother!
You can add more salt, but since my butter is normally salted I wouldn't bother - if you brush with egg (or milk) and sprinkle a little salt on the crust you get a nice savoury crust that way.
This amount of pastry will do for a 7inch shallow pie. Line the bottom of the dish with about half the pastry.
Dot 4oz sausage meat over the pastry base (you can just take the filling out of your favourite sausages, or use a butchers' sausagemeat mix black pudding or haggis also work excellently I have discovered!) Sprinkle over about 4 chopped streaky bacon rashers, break on top 4 or 5 eggs and season with about 1 teaspoon dried sage and about 1/2 teaspoon ground black pepper.
break the egg yolks with a fork and stir them around a bit to mix the yolk and white a bit (you want them jumbled but separate still)
Top with the othere half of the pastry and glaze with beaten egg and a sprinkle of fine salt.
Bake in hot (180 degrees Celsius) oven for about 45 minutes till golden and cooked through. If the crust looks like it is cooked and the filling isn't then putting the pie lower down (in a non fan oven) will help to finish it off.

I do have some pretty good recipe books, some of which I inherited from my Gran if we don't get some good hand me down recipes for soctch pies and other raised pies.

That sounds really yummy Nancy! I wonder if my crew would eat it? (I think I can hear them in the back-ground, "If you're going to bother making 'pie', make pumpkin pie!"

Jay Angler wrote:That sounds really yummy Nancy! I wonder if my crew would eat it? (I think I can hear them in the back-ground, "If you're going to bother making 'pie', make pumpkin pie!"

I think of it as an 'all day breakfast' pie. My variation is to sometimes add a layer of sliced tomatoes and/or mushrooms on top, to try and get more veggies in our diet.

Hi, Nancy! Thank you! Um... these are not available, here: sausagemeat mix black pudding or haggis. I can make it, if I know what goes in it - *might* even be able to get my hands on the right bits of offal, by processing my own critters. But, some offal is banned from sale here, and most offal doesn't sell well, so it can be difficult to find...

Hmmm... I'll have to see if I can find those cookbooks! Even if only in digital, they'd be great to have!

Nancy, you rock!

So I am in a similar position as Carla with the availability of certain sausages and mix. I can definitely see how the 'mechanism' of the pie and essentially you can fill it with anything really!

Carla, I'm not sure what your local grocer situation looks like but do you have anybody that makes link sausage? I can usually find loose grind Italian or breakfast sausage in chain grocery stores but it can be hard to find anything outside of that. I have a small Deli about half an hour away that makes fresh sausage daily. I'm almost tempted to do a few small test batches to see if loose breakfast sausage might be nice in a fluffy crust...

Great thread everyone, It is inspiring the cook in me.

Right, it sounds like we need to take a step back then :)
I'm pretty sure I can find recipes for sausagemeat, black pudding and haggis - you may need to find someone slaughtering their own meat since some offals don't go in the food system in the US (check why as well since I think they are parasite related, which are not a problem in Europe - or dealt with in another way). In the UK I think that black pudding is mainly made with dried blood these days as easier to store and transport. The recipes I have would use fresh blood.
Let me dig them out for you.

What about bacon? Is that pretty similar?

Bacon & rashers are, to my understanding, the same - or at least super close. John used to make a variety of fresh sausages (both cased and bulk), and just needs to know the ingredients & proportions. We can get black pudding and bangers, and John has made the bangers. Years ago, a friend brought us back both bangers & black pudding, when she went to Ireland, to meet her boyfriend's family, and we really enjoyed them (which is when John started making the bangers).

Timothy, here are a few links, to give you better access, for some of these products:

https://www.tommymoloneys.com/product-category/puddings/

https://jollyposhfoods.com/collections/our-products/products/black-pudding

(We've not tried this one yet, but John is shopping it, as I type) https://www.scottishgourmetusa.com/product/new-black-pudding

Edited to add: It seems Scottish style bacon is more like a very thinly sliced American ham steak. American bacon is made from pork belly.

So British sausagemeat is just the meat that goes into what I guess you would call 'link sausages' in the US. Every butcher has their own variation on this but I found a couple of different recipes which give you an idea. Note: I haven't made these (yet) so I don't know how these differ from commercially bought sausagement. I suspect it would turn out more authentic and yummy, but a bit more expensive than the butchers version.
You will need a mincer with coarse and fine blades.

From 'Farmhouse Kitchen II' (Edited by Mary Watts, published in 1978) Recipe from Stella Boldy, North Humberside
to make 5lb sausages:
450g/1lb white or wholemeal bread (*)
600ml/20 fl Oz water
1.3kg/3lb lean pork from shoulder
450g/1lb fat belly pork
25g/1Oz salt
8g/1/2 teasp pepper
6g/1/4 teasp ground mace
4g/small pinch ground ginger
2g/tiny pinch ground or rubbed sage

1. Cut bread in cubes and soak in water for 1-2 hours
2. Mince the meat using the coarse blades of mincer
3. Mix in the seasonings
4 Squeeze water from bread thoroughly and discard water
5 Mix all ingredients and put through mincer again
(6. Thread skins onto nozzle and fill. link as desired)

Another recipe from a magazine article from 2009 by Shona Crawford Poole:
1kg fatty shoulder of pork without skin and bones (or half lean pork shoulder and half fatty belly of pork)
10-15g sea salt
1 generous teaspoon freshly ground black or white pepper
1 teaspoon freshly grated nutmeg
100ml chilled water
100g fresh white breadcrumbs

1. Cut meat into large dice that will feed into mincer, combine with seasonings and mix well. Cover and chill for at least half a day.
2. Keeping everything as cold as possible, mince through the fine or medium die
3. Mix for one minute stirring briskly with a wooden spoon
4. Add the water and mix quickly until the liquid is incorporated. Sprinkle over breadcrumbs and mix until well blended in and the mixture is firm and sticky.
5. Fry a teaspoonful to test seasoning and adjust if required (be sure to mix additional seasoning in well!)
6. Stuff into prepared hog casings, twisting every 6in. Cook and eat fresh, or they will keep, hung in a cool airy place, for between 12 hours and 2 days depending on the temperature.

A few notes from Country Smallholding Magazine (November 2008) article by Michelle Dunn:
The rusk is needed to stop the sausages being too dense.
The fat is required to keep the sausages moist.

You can basically put any additional ingredients you fancy in: sundried tomatoes, beef or venison to replace some of the lean pork, different herbs, other fruits and vegetables. This sausagemeat won't keep very long fresh, but can be frozen. If you want sausages and don't have sausage skins, you can roll the meat into a sausage shape with floured hands and fry, or make little patties. Frying a small amount as is, so you can check the texture and seasoning before cooking the whole batch, makes a lot of sense.
At the end of the day every farm would have had their own version, so what ever suits your taste is fine!

I use sausagemeat to make stuffing for poultry (add a little onion and herbs), my breakfast pie mentioned above, and sausage rolls, which was another one of your wants Carla!

(*) I'm told US bread is also very different, so try and use home made or artisan bread if you can.

Thank you, Nancy!! I'll share this with John, and hope he starts some, SOON!!

I made a new thread for the black pudding recipes, to save disrailing this one.

Nancy Reading wrote:What about bacon? Is that pretty similar?

Not really. British bacon is made from the loin of the pig (the back of the pig), while American bacon comes from the belly. This means that British bacon is considerably leaner than American, and what fat there is, is mostly along the edge of the rasher, rather than mingled with the meat as American bacon is. Rashers are also shaped differently than American slices- they're kind of shaped like an ear, though that doesn't make as much difference in the cooking and eating as the fat distribution does. I vaguely remember being able to find something called 'back bacon' occasionally, back before I left the States. If you could find that, it might work as a substitute, or perhaps you might try very thinly sliced Canadian bacon.

Daniel Schneider wrote:

Nancy Reading wrote:What about bacon? Is that pretty similar?

Not really. British bacon is made from the loin of the pig (the back of the pig), while American bacon comes from the belly. This means that British bacon is considerably leaner than American, and what fat there is, is mostly along the edge of the rasher, rather than mingled with the meat as American bacon is.

That's posh bacon.

I was raised on streaky! It was cheaper, because it was fatty, and came from the belly.

I've just dug out a couple of ancient UK cookbooks to see what I can find. I may be some time...

I have my other half's mother's old cookbook here, for the newfangled regulo controlled Radiation New World gas cooker!

I had one just the same as my first cooker when I lived on the mountain in Wales.



Here's the recipe for pork pie. And yes, the pages really are that yellow and marked...



To be cooked at Regulo Mark 4, so you will probably need a conversion chart too...



I'll rummage through the book to see if there are any other gems...

Cheese and potato was a staple as I was growing up, though I have absolutely no idea why it was called a pie...

Cottage or Shepherd's Pie was also a staple if we could get hold of some meat.

Cottage pie was with beef, shepherd's pie with lamb or mutton. I don't remember ever having it made with pork.

Beefsteak or Steak-and-Kidney Pie

I made some pasties today. Not something I make very often, and I tried to make them a bit more authentic by almost following a recipe for 'cornish pasties' in one of my recipe books inherited from my Gran: Farmhouse kitchen edited by Rosemary Heesom first published in 1976 but based on Yorkshire TV viewers' own recipes. Note you'd get into trouble for calling them "Cornish pasties" these days since that term is location protected or something and the ingredients and method has to be just so. Pasties however are UK wide, although a similar pastry in Scotland is a "Bridie". These pasties (in Cornwall) were the lunches that the folk would have taken down the mine - the fluted bit of pastry acts as a handle and it's likely that each maker used their own pattern so you could tell which was your lunch in the dark. I understand that sometimes the pasties were meat at one end and fruit at the other.

Since I wanted to experiment just a bit, I made one batch of shortcrust pastry and one batch of hot water pastry to see what the difference is like. I would normally just use shortcrust, but for picnic purposes the hotcrust is more robust, so is more likely to be what was used. I used 50% plain flour and 50% wholemeal bread flour (since I don't have wholemeal plain flour to hand). The hot crust pastry is 8Oz flour, 1 teaspoon salt, 2 Oz lard and 9 Fl Oz water. Mix the salt into the flour in a basin, put the lard in the water in a small pan and heat until the lard is melted and the water starts to boil. Mix hot liquid quickly into the flour with a wooden spoon to make a fairly soft dough. I had to add just a splash more boiling water, maybe because of the wholewheat flour. Then with one hand pinch the dough and knead until it is smooth and silky. Cover with a damp cloth and leave in a warm place to rest for 20-30 minutes (while you make the filling!)
The shortcrust pastry for completeness was the same 8 Oz 50/50 plain and wholewheat flour, 2 Oz lard, 2 Oz butter, and cold water to mix. First rub in the fat to the flour until it resembles breadcrumbs, then pour in enough water to mix to a fairly stiff dough, only just mix enough to get the dough. Then cover and leave in a cool place to rest.
The filling For both lots of pastry is as follows: 1 lb minced (ground) beef, chopped onion, diced potato and carrot to weigh about 1 lb, 1 1/2 teaspoon salt and 1/2 teaspoon ground pepper. Combine filling ingredients together.
I actually used finely dice swede (rutabaga) rather than carrot and a small Babbingtons leek rather than the onion. I put a generous splash of Worcestershire sauce and a half teaspoon of marmite dissolved in a little hot water in mine. You can put any filling in a pasty you like. Leftovers are good and the cooking time can be reduced accordingly.

making filling for pasties

So for each batch of pastry divide it into 6. Roll out each bit into a round about 6 inches accross. Brush the edges with water and then place a generous spoonful of filling in the centre.

pasty under construction

Bring the edges together and press them gently to stick. They naturally start to flute and that is how I was taught to make the join. Some pasties have the edges sort of folded or plaited.
Put the finished pasty onto a greased baking sheet and make the other 5 in the batch. Brush the pasties with beaten egg to give a golden glaze

six shortcrust pastry pasties glazed and ready to bake

Bake in a hot oven (400 degrees F, 220 degrees Celsius) for about 40 minutes until the pastry is golden and the filling is sizzling and cooked through. If the pastry starts to brown too quickly, reduce the temperature slightly.

finished pasties - Shortcrust on right, hot water pastry on left

The shortcrust pastry does end up softer and more fragile, so as I thought the hotwater pastry would be much better for a portable snack. But both turned out pretty well:

Cooked hot water pastry pasty broken open

Let me know if any of this doesn't make sense!

LOVELY,  Nancy!! I think it makes perfect sense, and I'll try them, next time we are ready for a carb-up day! (We're doing one tomorrow, but since it's St Patrick's Day, John already has the menu planned and started, lol)

I'm concerned that the international Cornish mafia will be out to get me if I try.......Vegan Sausage Pasty??? ;-)    All of the recipe's in this thread have me contemplating an addition to tonight's soup.  Turns out that 'Impossible' brand vegan sausage is really quite good at mimicking pork sausage.   So I was thinking of doing the same mix of vegetables as a typical beef pasty, but using the sausage instead.  Great food for cold early spring evenings!....

John Weiland wrote:I'm concerned that the international Cornish mafia will be out to get me if I try.......Vegan Sausage Pasty??? ;-)  

Sounds good to me John! Not all pasties come from Cornwall. Veggie pasties, left over chilli or curry pasties, mushroom and potato pasties.....all fine. As long as you don't call it a "Cornish pasty" you'll be alright.

I can recommend the Hairy Bikers Pie cookbook, which you might be able to get the kindle version of. They were two friends, who loved cooking, who toured around on motorbikes. Their pie book is pretty comprehensive.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hairy-Bikers-Perfect-Pies-Ultimate/dp/0297863258/ref=asc_df_0297863258/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310762441626&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11744980667381759795&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045631&hvtargid=pla-454531591436&psc=1&mcid=c34dd6d7106c348ca977ee6af057ccfc&th=1&psc=1

Apologies for it being an Amazon link :(

On the pastry front, I recently discovered hot water pastry, which is really easy to make and roll out - doesn't stick to surface or the rolling pin! Makes a sturdy pastry, good for picnic pies and pork pies.

Nancy Reading wrote:....Veggie pasties, left over chilli or curry pasties, mushroom and potato pasties.....all fine. As long as you don't call it a "Cornish pasty" you'll be alright.

I just used a standard pie crust recipe and they turned out quite good!  Now that you mention left-over curries, a potato-pea curry that we make seems like it would re-purpose well in this crust.  It looks like sausage, bean, and cheese pasty also is recommended....perhaps a pie version of beans-on-toast?  A chickpea flour-based spinach mushroom onion filled version seems like it would work as well.... Good additions, thanks!

I'm not sure if you have some used book stores around but you might find this cookbook helpful.
https://www.amazon.ca/National-Trust-Complete-Traditional-Recipe/dp/1905400969

I found a copy a couple of years ago at our local thrift store and have been happy with the recipes we've tried. With it being done by the National trust, I feel pretty sure most are the proper, traditional versions.

Dian Green wrote:I'm not sure if you have some used book stores around but you might find this cookbook helpful.
https://www.amazon.ca/National-Trust-Complete-Traditional-Recipe/dp/1905400969

I found a copy a couple of years ago at our local thrift store and have been happy with the recipes we've tried. With it being done by the National trust, I feel pretty sure most are the proper, traditional versions.

I have this book and was going to recommend it, but it doesn't seem to be in print anymore.

Zoe Ward wrote:

Dian Green wrote:I'm not sure if you have some used book stores around but you might find this cookbook helpful.
https://www.amazon.ca/National-Trust-Complete-Traditional-Recipe/dp/1905400969

I have this book and was going to recommend it, but it doesn't seem to be in print anymore.

Has anyone investigated as to whether the National Trust has a PDF version available? So many people have gone to electronic versions, it may be something they've either done, or could be convinced to do if enough people politely requested it.

Jay Angler wrote:

Zoe Ward wrote:

Dian Green wrote:I'm not sure if you have some used book stores around but you might find this cookbook helpful.
https://www.amazon.ca/National-Trust-Complete-Traditional-Recipe/dp/1905400969

I have this book and was going to recommend it, but it doesn't seem to be in print anymore.

Has anyone investigated as to whether the National Trust has a PDF version available? So many people have gone to electronic versions, it may be something they've either done, or could be convinced to do if enough people politely requested it.

Interesting! It is available from the .com site, even though it's not, on the .ca site. A used copy is now in my cart! Thank you!

Pasties are very available in Mexico. They even have the same name. They came to Mexico with Cornish miners, after Mexico became independent from Spain in the early nineteenth century, to the city of Pachuca, still an important mining town.

There are all sorts of pasties, from traditional to hit chile to sweet ones, an incredible variety.

Pachuca also started football in Mexico as well, and you can blame the miners for that as well !

Regards

Roger Kenyon