Caterpillars in the suburbs

Hello, noob here so wall of text intro.

South Florida, I've been organic gardening for two years. I have 3 raised beds + one in ground bed, about to put a pallet fence around the area to grow herbs/greens facing away from direct sunlight. My dream is to homestead but I am too poor to do so. The next best thing is the small space my family gave me to grow things on about 1/20th of the grass's area, I can't eat grass... I wish I could talk them into renovating the screened room and make it super sturdy for rooftop garden at least but it's unlikely. Woe is me.

Two years ago I had disease problems, caterpillars, leaf miners, and aphids. I solarized my soil and now the disease and aphids are pretty much non-existent, things are growing like a jungle, however, tons of leaf miners and caterpillars still. I have to squish dozens of caterpillars per day, on every plant you can imagine. It's getting extremely frustrating now because any time a watermelon sprout appears it's gone the next day, I mean every time. I have not once successfully gotten a watermelon bigger than the size of a coin because they get to it magically. I can't imagine there's some super mutant moths flying around because of the pesticides every buffoon in the city sprays weekly to grow grass.

I've used BT once but I also raised monarchs in a nearby bed, I did it off season and my milkweed plants are currently in seed trays so it's off season but won't be soon.

A little background. We used to have only anole lizards, tiny, somewhat cute lizards that eat small bugs. Now we have gigantic orange headed rainbow lizards that eat the anoles and everything else. I am vegan but considering culling them with a high powered BB gun, because it's getting ridiculous.

Any suggestions at all for caterpillar pests? Should I bite the bulet while my milkweed isn't transplanted yet and spray BT once more for the season? A post here when I was just a reader is what turned me away from BT to permaculture in the first place. I know it's organic but I'm looking for nature to do its thing and have a more consistent solution over time. I have lots of fruit trees now, mint, epazote, Cuban oregano, Vicks, culinary herbs, everything you can imagine, as well as non-edible flowers and edible flowers/herbs from both Chinese and Western traditional medicine, bit of a Strictly Medicinal addict. Nothing seems to stop the rampage of these moths/butterfly caterpillars. I am extremely accustom to Monarch caterpillars, these are not them. There are about 2-3 kinds I see on vegetables, I think the predominant one is a cabbage worm.

I see nice lemon cukes appearing and my double trellis will be done tomorrow... I will not sacrifice them as well as the watermelon! Help!

Thank you for your time and regards.

If there are plants they don't eat,
can you grind them up and spray them on plants they do eat?
I've been considering trying this with soapwart.

these moths/butterfly caterpillars. I am extremely accustom to Monarch caterpillars,

A picture of these caterpillars would be very helpful.

Many caterpillars turn into butterflies and moths as you have indicated.

You may have planted their host plants.

This has links that will help ID your caterpillars:

https://permies.com/t/59499/Good-Caterpiller-butterfly-caterpillar

A butterfly will lay her eggs on host plants. Once the egg hatches, the larva emerges and feeds on its host plant.

Here are a few Host Plants and which Butterflies/Larvae use them:

Dill, Fennel, Parsley

Nasturtium (Tropaeolum majus)

Passion Flowers (Passiflora spp.)

Sunflower (Helianthus spp.)

My suggestion is that if you find a caterpillar, drop it in a pail of water.

Or you might place it on its host plant.  Sacrifice one plant and put all the caterpillars on that one plant.

Take Craig's suggestion and make a spray.

Here is a photo. I just woke up and killed dozens. About 4 larger ones as shown in the photo and too many smaller ones. Another post here seemed to say BT and row covers are the only things for organic growers against worms. I can’t be covering half the yard with row covers as the watermelon sprawls.

Maybe I should just give up on the melons? Never been able to grow one before. This always happens. Even before I started organic gardening. I never sprayed any classical pesticides before I went organic I just feel it also contains a mindset, so I differentiate.  

This worm is about 95% of the ones I find. Sometimes an odd one here and there.

I have sunflower growing out front. My butterfly / pollinator plot is small but it’s there.

I’m part Cuban and have an affinity for nice tobacco, I’m growing it to both try and process for pipes and cigars but I have some Native American make your head spin strong ornamental varieties I might try making some pesticide out of…. Any experience?

That caterpillar is too small for me to see.

It might be the Luna Moth:


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Does this caterpillar look like what you have?

Sorry, it's hard for my phone camera to focus on them, that's as close as I could get. I do not think that is it, I've never seen that moth around here. This is about as big as I find them. I swear they're either microscopic, or this size, I never see them any bigger, either killed or gone before I find them.

Luna moth looks like some sort of rare find in a Zelda game... not sure I could kill one of those things.

it looks like a tiny cabbage looper. Luna moth caterpillars are pretty big (had one on my tomato that was the size of a hot dog, scary as heck!)

I have caterpillar issues but like you, don't like the damage that BT does. Until plants are big enough to be a bit stronger I do try to cover them (I have some screen type fabric), then once they have a good number of leaves I take it off and let them fend for themselves.
If you have a small enough space you can keep on top of it, hunting for caterpillars and eggs every so often. Pick em off and kill em. We have lots of geckos but they want to eat nocturnal moths, not sure if your anole situation is similar.
The tobacco spray is a big thing here too, I try it every few years but I'm very leery of introducing mosaic virus (I also grow tomatoes and other things that would be affected). Instead if I were you I'd try some homemade sprays (soap with garlic and oil, fermented coffee and vinegar, etc) to see if I couldn't get the caterpillars to move elsewhere. I think no matter what you do, frequent intervention is key, whether picking or spraying, the more you do it the more bothered they might get and move along.

PS can you spray those rainbow lizards with a hose? Again, if you harrass them they might go elsewhere where living is easier.

Luckily the worms don’t like the only thing currently producing… Chinese yard long beans. I think I harvest 1 lb every 3-4 days. About to pickle some today. This is the first time I’ve consistently had something to eat. The problem is nothing else is mature yet!

The beans grow like a weed here in FL. Japanese/some Chinese veg were a recommendation to me by a local gentleman who inspired me to do more beyond planting vegetables, he also sold me some plantain trees. Apparently they like the humidity.

These lizards are a pest. There is no repelling them. They came here via cargo ships apparently down south. Then they’d hitch a ride underneath cars and they’re everywhere now. They have decimated various populations. When I go outside I see birds in trees and gigantic lizards all over the ground. Two years I raised dozens of monarchs. I haven’t seen more than a COUPLE in two years. Moment they enter the yard they’re gone.

I get the bad feeling that this type of thing is slightly easier over time on a larger space. Things naturalize more easily over a bigger area, more room for diversity. Here in the suburbs it’s a confined space of growing, a fence and then everyone else’s buffoonery. It’s a bit demoralizing but I will keep at it.

Everyday 90% of my gardening time is spent searching for worms with a stick like a monkey, but I don’t get to enjoy eating them.

No one is mentioning wasps and spiders here.  Especially for caterpillars wasps feed a lot to their developing young. If you have areas of your yard like possibly a hedge that doesn't need continual pruning you can cede that space to any wasps that start making a home there.  

I get along well with even our yellow jackets but I couldn't tell you why.  No one else in my house has the same talent. So make sure it's an area you can mostly avoid. The can be temperamental.

Alternatively if you are willing to spend a little money you can purchase nonstinging parasitic wasps to release.  They'll lay their eggs on the caterpillars and their young will kill them for you.  Can anyone tell me if these wasps can establish a stable population once introduced or is it a yearly thing?

Jeff Steez wrote:I get the bad feeling that this type of thing is slightly easier over time on a larger space..... Here in the suburbs it’s a confined space of growing, a fence and then everyone else’s buffoonery. It’s a bit demoralizing but I will keep at it.

Ha, I am also urban/suburban and I hear you. I've got the only non-grass green space for 3 or 4 blocks, I get all the birds but I also get all the bugs. When the grasshoppers are decimating everything it is not nearly as cool as when the pretty birds are in the yard. Also I do enjoy getting to eat a LITTLE of what I plant, and it doesn't always happen. Glad I'm not subsisting on my crops.
That said, I'm also finally getting long beans here and they are one of the best things I grow. Enjoy them!

Hi Casey. I believe a stable population of parasitic wasp is the norm; at least here. The problem I find is they don’t show until mid-July when there’s already worm problems. I’m blessed to be able to plant more than most folks. Because of this a couple sacrificial plants is acceptable. If one plant is taking a lot of damage I’ll move hornworms to it. I want my army of wasp to have a good meal.
So far (9 years) I also have a peaceful existence with paper wasp and yellow jackets. I’ve seen them walk up and down plants eating aphids. Once the food is gone the yellow jackets always move on. That’s why I never use chemicals. I would be ignorant of upsetting the natural balance until it was too late.

In addition to insect predators mentioned,  some birds feed heavily on caterpillars.  If you have room to put up nest boxes specific to those species you may find them a huge help especially during the weeks they are feeding young.  

I did this for fly/mosquito help;  put in some nest boxes specific to wrens.    They moved in the 2nd summer and raised 4 babies.   In addition to the small brown bats I have around at night, they were BIG help in reducing populations!  

Toads?  Do toads eat caterpillars much?   another avenue to possibly explore and encourage!

Native Florida soil... SAND.

I've got a pair of mourning doves that hang around on the ground right now. They're slowly trusting me. Sometimes I give them a bit of millet. Anybody see that thing about how squirrels prefer normal corn to non-GMO corn? I can't imagine why they'd hang around the only organic spot for miles, just a pair of lovebirds...

I am going to do a picture dump right now to show what I'm working with and for historical/documenatitve purposes, if I ever need advice I hope I can just refer to this information. It is the limitation of my family's willingness to let me plant. This is probably... realistically 1/20th of the yard like I previously said, perhaps closing in on 1/10th. The side of the house gets about 3-4 hours, due to *moan* neighbors, of light so nothing grows there right now. I'm thinking of putting raised beds there for cooler herbs.

I tried Native American four sisters to no success, corn got to like 2 feet after 2 months so I composted it. Right now, only the sunflowers are growing and they're probably knee high, not towers. So yes, this is about the extent of it all. Along the other fence though I will be growing tobacco and I started a tamarind tree from seed, which I will have to put somewhere.

Please post criticism or suggestions, things I can squeeze in to help with pest control... the suburbs, they suck and they're weird. this is full sun to me, the fence starts to block light after... 3pm or so, I forget, never really made a mental note of it. I know all of the below is very sloppy. I did not expect some of this to work so I was not prepared with trellises, support, mulch, etc... so I've been scrambling as weather warms... It will all be cleaned up soon hopefully, maybe this week.

Hi Jeff,
You have a beautiful garden and Monarch butterflies too! What a treat. According to https://www.growables.org/informationVeg/WatermelonPests1.htm you have quite a few pests that love to eat watermelons in Florida. Unfortunately, growing organically isn't easy. It takes a lot of hard work and patience. It sounds like everyone has given you some great advise. Bt, Spinosad and covers are the most common and probably the best solutions in the short term and attracting beneficials for the longer term.  It would be nice if we could just leave things up to Mother Nature to fix but she's pretty busy now with climate change and all that stuff.

You might want to skip growing melons for awhile and just use that space for other things that you like but according to https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/fl/newsroom/releases/?cid=NRCSEPRD363613 the monarchs feed almost exclusively on milkweed. If you keep your milkweed away from your more susceptible plants spraying the melons shouldn't affect the butterflies.  I wish we could give you an easier solution but we have to help Mother Nature  out and step up our game now.

Please take some pictures for us when the Monarchs show up.

Happy gardening.

Yes, I'm not sure if there's a solution to that problem, we'll all go down with it.

Buying things certainly makes it worse. Making natural gear on your own does not hurt in the long run... How can I make natural tools and things with no access to natural land? I have this fancy computer, but I can't find a tree to chop down... Come on. It's a bit of a double bind. To get out of this situation we need what isn't there anymore, what isn't being allowed, what's been stolen and diminished. Indians used to roam these lands and take only what was needed. I am not allowed to roam, it's called trespassing... It's easy to say stop blaming the bad men and do something... Well, some of us don't have decent money and never will, or lack opportunities because of mental illnesses that are difficult to cope with.

Well, guess what. I'm about to buy that bundle of adzes and axes I mentioned on the woodworking forum. I found a decent plot of land, 1.25 acres about 1 hour away, it has electricity and trees. Maybe I just have to take a chance, take my axes and build a natural structure for now as I get a garden going on it. Then I can maybe implement a double store container house or something. I would have to take out a loan for this land, but it's Florida, I wouldn't be satisfied anywhere else, I adore the tropics. $18,000 prior to whatever fees they'll snake in.

For now, I might get some cover fabric and take some zip ties, or rubber bands that have wiggle room, and just lightly tie fabric around the watermelons as they appear. they can eat the leaves all they want, I will get them. covering the entire plant is too much... perhaps this could do the trick.

Have you been able to keep runner beans alive through the summer?  I am trying them again here but have yet to successfully perennialize them in my yard.  It's already too hot here for them to set pods but they're so big and delicious that I am hoping for a fall crop.  I saved half my seed to replant then if they die again.

Casie Becker wrote:Have you been able to keep runner beans alive through the summer?  I am trying them again here but have yet to successfully perennialize them in my yard.  It's already too hot here for them to set pods but they're so big and delicious that I am hoping for a fall crop.  I saved half my seed to replant then if they die again.

The biggest bean I've ever seen. So big I almost felt naughty or something holding them, they shouldn't be allowed to be that big...

First time for me. I planted them behind the wall of yard long beans. Thus, currently they get midday heat, but soon after that they're blocked by the fence shadow. We will see how they do... I am excited. Perhaps I will drape shade cloth over that bed for now, I might put perennial peppers in the empty space, take two bamboo stakes, stick in dirt and secure other side to fence, forming a triangle, so it blocks the entire midday sun but doesn't smother them.

I think they're drooping because that soil dries so quickly. That was pure sand before I started. Now it's mostly sand... The rest of the beds have brought in organic soil.

I eat the corona beans from Rancho Gordo often and they're unbelievable, I put them whole on a bun, recipe from Vegetable Kingdom, it's unbelievable, I eat the bean burgers for a week straight. I'm unbelievable hungry thinking about them now.

Well... things were going well besides these worms... until... tomato disease. Luckily I have backup plants going but FML.

Can anyone confirm if this looks like disease? I sprayed neem oil, castille soap, and cayenne pepper last night before the heat went away. I am not sure if that has anything to do with it but it is not the first time I've sprayed any of my current plants with that concoction.

On Some of the underside of leaf with these tiny spots it looks like plant material has been removed, like it was eaten almost. I am hoping that maybe this is neem oil getting rid of some fungus but I have a bad feeling. Need urgent suggestions if there are any, I've trimmed a number of branches with clean scissors but don't want to trim too much more.