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No motor vacuum pump

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posted 2 years ago

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Does anybody have any experience using this pump, basically it’s a sealed container with a pipe going into the top of the container which leads to a water source. There is a spout or hose on the bottom of the container, you fill the container with water and open the spout. As the container empties it creates a vacuum which sucks up water from the source thus creating a perpetual pump basically. I can find little too no information on the use of these things.

Douglas Alpenstock

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posted 2 years ago

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Is the elevation of the destination (end of the pipe) lower than the elevation of the "pump?"

In that case it's a siphon. Powered by gravity and the hydraulic characteristics of fluids in pipes.

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posted 2 years ago

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I’m with Douglas, it sounds like a siphon.

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posted 2 years ago

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This is pulling a siphon, utilizing the Venturi effect.

You might commonly see this with fertilizer tanks being mixed near the end of a hose into a stream of irrigation water. The siphoning action pulls fertilizer to mix into the hose before being ejected onto the plants.

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Nick Mick

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posted 2 years ago

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No the ‘pump’ is at a higher elevation, you fill the container with water initially and as it empties the vacuum created by the container sucks water up the pipe, into the container, then out again. It can be shut on and off or left on as continuous flow as long as the vacuum is held.

Robert Ray

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posted 2 years ago

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Are you talking about a hydraulic ram pump?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=How+a+Hydraulic+Ram+Pump+Works&&view=detail&mid=16D852A952C0C644634A16D852A952C0C644634A&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DHow%2Ba%2BHydraulic%2BRam%2BPump%2BWorks%26FORM%3DVRIBQP

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Anne Miller

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posted 2 years ago

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Are any of these what you are asking about?

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Nick Mick

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Anne Miller wrote:Are any of these what you are asking about?

Yeah that’s what I’m talking about, I just didn’t know what the actual name is or if anybody on here has practicality used it.

Douglas Alpenstock

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posted 2 years ago

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It's a curious concept.

The principle is that of a siphon, where the energy is derived from gravity in the long flowing exit pipe to a lower elevation.

It's hard to tell in the videos, but it *seems* they are pulling water from a somewhat deeper elevation than a simple siphon would allow.

Note how each system has a trap to capture any entrained air that might otherwise find its way back to the barrel.

Fluid dynamics can do some funky stuff. I wonder if the smaller inlet pipe vs. the larger outlet pipe (which is restricted to the small size at the discharge) essentially enhances the siphon effect, allowing the system to pull water from deeper without violating the laws of physics. Hmm.

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posted 2 years ago

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Doug, I'm scratching my head as well. A siphon works because atmospheric pressure wants to help gravity equalise the surface levels of two reservoirs. The limits to the principle are the highest point of the siphon, and the drag introduced by the pipe and any other restrictions along the path.

One thing a siphon cannot do is defeat gravity. It only works from high to low, and when the two levels are the same then the flow stops. You can leave it in place so that when one side drains out, the other side will refill it. But you can't run water uphill without some energetic input to the system. That could be a pump, compressed air, or magic fairy dust. I know how to obtain and work with the first two.

Physics, eh.

Phil Stevens

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posted 2 years ago

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AHA! It's the weight of the water in the container providing enough static head to create suction and lift the water from the well. So the limiting factor will be some function of the static head and the depth to water source.

I want to make one and play with it to get a feel for how it behaves. Something tells me that it will run down and stop eventually from friction losses, even if you do a good job keeping air from working its way into the container (and dissolved air in the well water could contribute to this as well).

J. Graham

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posted 2 years ago

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I'm feeling pretty sure these are fake, with the possible exception of the one with the red drum. It looks like it may have enough elevation drop to form a siphon. In which case it is basically a momentum based siphon starting mechanism.

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John F Dean

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posted 2 years ago

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To those experimenting, please post your results.

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Douglas Alpenstock

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I'd like to see vacuum gauges and pressure gauges on various parts of the system (the red drum one), to understand what's going on.

IF this can create enough suction, created by the initial static head and sustained by the flow in the larger downstream pipe, I wouldn't be surprised if it operates in pulses, with the opening/closing of the foot valve (check valve) in the well regulating the system.

I'm still keeping my skeptical hat on, but it's fun to think about.

Robert Ray

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Hydraulic ram pumps or water hammers have been around a long time. Looks like magic. Patented in 1796 so it has been in use for a bit.

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Jeremy VanGelder

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posted 2 years ago

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There is also Heron's Fountain, which was invented by Hero of Alexander. But in it the total flow of water is downwards. It uses the force of water flowing into a lower, sealed container to pressurize air, pushing water out of a higher container and up out of the fountain. The fountain drains back into the lowest container, keeping the system going until the higher container is out of water.

EDIT: And in the related articles section of wikipedia I see a Pulser Pump which combines a tromp with an airlift pump to lift some water to a higher elevation than the reservoir that it draws from.

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Phil Stevens

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posted 2 years ago

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If we do back-of-envelope energy balances in this system, there is an initial input of a person lifting water to fill the container to the required level. This priming input is the key and eventually friction losses will cancel it out.

Robert Ray

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These are using the initial fill and valve opening to create a vacuum in the higher reservoir to siphon, but you could not pump above the reservoirs static level. I don't see any of the examples pumping above the reservoirs level. I believe that if the output end was raised above the top of the reservoir it would break the vacuum and stop. A clever way to create a vacuum reservoir and when maintaining that vacuum siphon from a lower point. A hydraulic ram pump on the other hand does require some constant head pressure but would allow pumping water uphill. Allowing say rainwater collection in an IBC to be pumped to a garden uphill without added input other than the pressure of the water in the IBC.

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Joe Peterson

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posted 1 year ago

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This is a great explanation about the limitations of vacuum-driven system and the advantages of hydraulic ram pumps! Your observation regarding the vacuum reservoir is correct. Raising the output level above the reservoir would disrupt the system.
A hydraulic ram-pump, on the other hand, is powered by water flow and relies on constant pressure. The main difference is in the way energy is harnessed. The hydraulic ram pump relies on pressure surges generated by hydraulic valves in order to push a fractional amount of water uphill. These valves control the water flow and create a water hammer effect that allows the pump to work efficiently without external power.

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