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"Drought tolerant" trees and very deep water table

 
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Hey all,

I'm in northern Arizona at 5700 feet, 10-15 inches of rain a year, very fast draining cinder based soil, only trees around are junipers, my land is pretty much flat. The community well 2 miles away that I haul water from is 1300 ft deep, so it's reasonable to believe the water level is similar at my place.

I'd like to plant some trees for shade and privacy and am looking at things like some willow hybrids that are sold as being very drought tolerant, fast growing and able to survive without extra watering (or very limited amounts) once established.

I'm willing to water them for the first few years in order to give them the best possible chance at survival but would hope not to have to, or only very rarely give them supplemental water after 2 or 3 years.

Am I kidding myself that this is possible? When they say the trees are drought tolerant once established, is that assuming a much shallower water table that the roots can potentially reach after a couple of years? Am I setting myself up for disappointment??
 
pollinator
Posts: 61
Location: Provo, Utah (zone 7b)
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My suspicion is that your concern is correct, and a low water table will make it more challenging to grow trees without irrigation.  Especially with well-draining soil.

I live in Utah, which has a similar climate, but a bit wetter and colder.  In my city, we get an average of 18 inches of rain a year, most of it in the winter as snow.  My soil is pure sand, so water disappears quickly.

I live across the street from a river, so the water table in my neighborhood is high.  I can share a few observations I've made.

It's indisputable that there are a lot more wild trees near the river.  I only see wild chokeberries and mulberries near the river, for instance.

Far away from the river, wild spaces in the valley don't have trees -- just bushes and grasses.  The further you get from the river, the more you'll see that the only wild plants are winter annuals.  (Rye seems to like growing wild here, for instance.)

My recommendation is that you add some natural sponges to your soil, so it doesn't drain as quickly.  That will be almost like creating a high water table for your plants to draw from.

I recommend either hugelkultur, biochar, or preferably both.  Got a bunch of sticks, autumn leaves, wood chips, paper, cardboard, or anything else like that?  Dig a great big trench, fill it up to about a foot below ground level, and preferably add kitchen scraps and urine at the same time.  (The kitchen scraps and urine will provide enough nitrogen to keep the carbon sources from tying up any nitrogen from the soil.  It seems to work that way for me, anyway.)  Put dirt back on top.  Plant seedlings into that dirt.  Irrigate them only until you're sure their roots have reached that layer.  Then taper them off and see how they do.

I'm given to understand that biochar is even better than wood, because it's actually a permanent soil amendment.  It won't go away over time.  Thousands of years later, it'll still be there, acting as a sponge to keep water available up high for plant roots.

If you're willing to make a lot of biochar, and charge it by pouring urine into the pit with it and then covering it up with your soil, that would probably be a lot of work, but you'd only have to do it one time ever -- and your trees would benefit from it for their whole lifetimes, as would their descendants.

I think that would probably be your best option for growing trees without irrigation in the future.

If you're interested in trying it, I highly recommend this playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eBMxk_gu_M&list=PL60FnyEY-eJAfBgRAHKXjsNiUwqD1GTFK

Skillcult has some really awesome stuff.  He does a lot of research and experiments a lot.


 
Emily Sorensen
pollinator
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Location: Provo, Utah (zone 7b)
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Oh, just a further thought.  You know those obnoxious weeds you have that you don't want to put in your compost pile because the seeds and/or roots will survive and spread all over your garden if you add them?

I'm assuming you have at least one species that fits that description.  I have quite a few.

Well, you can roast them!  

You can turn those weed seeds and roots into charcoal to add to your soil, which will a) kill them, and b) make them an asset for the future.  Here's an awesome video David the Good pointed me to that makes that very simple:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChVxPpnPT-I
 
steward
Posts: 16058
Location: USDA Zone 8a
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What other species of trees do you see other folks growing?

Native plants are always a good suggestion.  What trees are native to your area.

Another concern is your altitude.

Some tree species will nit grow at that altitude.

Here are a few threads that you or others might find interesting:

https://permies.com/t/179221/Resources-specific-starting-high-desert

https://permies.com/t/150708/permaculture/Desert-Tree-Establishment

https://permies.com/t/8716/establish-permaculture-high-desert-lots
https://permies.com/t/218720/Land-Planning-High-Desert
 
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Maybe, although it couldn’t hurt to start with hardy pioneer species.  

https://permies.com/t/24361/Geoff-Lawton-list-pioneer-plant


From my research notes, reportedly, desert Willow shrubs are hardy to -3 F and can survive on as little as 10 inches a year of rainfall.

Some Arizona willows:
* Desert
* Bow
* Flowering
* Arizona Willow
* Crack
* Bebb’s
* Corkscrew
* Arroyo
* Creeping

I imagine ~50% shade would help.

Also I figure it would help if you can collect some of the monsoon rain in a shaded, covered pond or tank and then irrigate as needed.

Folks advise to start small and build up.

If this is the same sort of willow that is known for having very easily-rooted cuttings, maybe start there?  

 
Mike Philips
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I like Emily’s hugelkultur suggestion.  FWIW, Geoff Lawton reportedly had success with a similar trial/experiment. (He layered in manure as well).  In theory I suppose the buried “compost” will conserve water, moderate temperature, build soil, and support soil life.

I have a hunch that drought tolerance may involve both water *and* soil nutrients, and the synergy there-in, (more than either one alone).
 
gardener
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Lots of good advice already given,so let me ask some questions.
What do you do with your greywater, and do you even generate blackwater?
 
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Location: North Texas
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Some ideas for the pre-plant stage:
1. Slow water movement through contouring -  

2. Successional planting - consider putting down some pioneer species first to create biomass. This is a good read: https://deepgreenpermaculture.com/permaculture/permaculture-design-principles/8-accelerating-succession-and-evolution/


My area is probably not as hot or as yours (Northern Texas) but Mesquite and jujube trees are doing really well in my yard. I've had weeks of 110+ temp and they both did well.

Your local nurseries may have some good ideas too: https://www.summerwindsnursery.com/az/plants/trees/low-water/

Good luck!






 
Posts: 152
Location: Southern Colorado, 6300', zone 6a, 16" precipitation
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I have planted hundreds of trees and dozens of species in south Colorado and I am just going to say it.... willows cannot survive without regular water - same goes for cotton woods. The best fast growing trees I have found are black locusts, russian olives and siberian elms. Even then you should expect 50% die off. Also, you need to do some earth works around the tree. This is essential. Make a wide basin with a berm on the down hill side. Try to make sure each tree gets at least 30 feet x 3 feet of uphill area for runoff.

Now if there is an area that you regularly water then I recommend a cottonwood tree as opposed to a willow. You could also go with white mulberry.
 
Emily Sorensen
pollinator
Posts: 61
Location: Provo, Utah (zone 7b)
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Siberian elms are extremely weedy, and spread like crazy, so I don't recommend planting them.  On the other hand, maybe that's what you're looking for in a stand of trees.  They may be good for your purpose here because they're quite tall, grow very fast, and they're highly drought tolerant.

When they get mature, they'll spread seeds everywhere, and you'll get seedlings everywhere (but this is also true of maples).  The leaves are edible and taste okay.  The green seed pods (samarras) are edible, and taste delicious!  But only if you don't accidentally eat a baby elm seed bug, which taste nasty, and they're usually all over the samarras and hard to notice until you accidentally eat one.  Probably soaking the seeds in water to drown any bugs would help to remove them.

 
gardener
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Location: Málaga, Spain
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I would suggest natives, they are safer to work with.

If you want to increase chances, yes, set an area for rainwater catchment so the area of your tree receives more water whenever it rains. Prepare the soil so the water doesn't run away (without water, this means tilling and adding organic matter and a little berm). If wind is a problem, make a tall berm with herbs over it surrounding your tree.

If you choose non natives, try at least that they are adapted to local climate.

Best luck.
 
Mike Philips
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Abraham Palma wrote:Native plants are your best bet.



You need a species that is adapted to the way it rains in your location.




If natives are “best”, why are non-natives sometimes better?  
 
Abraham Palma
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Mike Philips wrote:

Abraham Palma wrote:Native plants are your best bet.



You need a species that is adapted to the way it rains in your location.




If natives are “best”, why are non-natives sometimes better?  



I think natives are easier because they are adapted to local conditions: climate, flora, fauna, microbes...
Sometimes these ecosystems are so badly degraded that a foreign species can thrive without competition.
Sometimes it's the climate that's changing, and natives are no better adapted than foreigners.
Sometimes it's us who are giving the plants a non-native environment by the way of fertilizing and irrigating.

An example. Subtropical plants grow very fast, compared to mediterranean species. If we plant subtropicals here (I'm in a mediterranean climate) and give them enough water, they outcompete the mediterranean ones. But if we can't keep the irrigation going on, those subtropicals suffer or die and it's the mediterranean ones who stand. For the same reason, if you plant a mediterranean slow growing species in a subtropical climate, you need to keep its competion out or it gets overwhelmed by the natives.

Another example. Foreign palm trees were planted massively in our coasts. The only native palm tree here is the chamaerops nobilis, a small bushy palm tree with an edible trunk. For more than 60 years they've thriven. Now, a carabid is damaging them all and there's no natural predator here against the carabid, so they are fighting the 'plague' with massive fumigations and hormone inyections and whatever they fancy. They are throwing money with no end at sight at a problem they've caused by massively introducing a foreign species.

Using a foreign species is sensible when it's a transitional phase, or in a controlled manner (small quantities, confined spaces, market gardens, ...)

There are also reasons for using non natives: better taste, better shape. Most of what we eat is not native, it's food that was brought from Asia and adapted to be grown here. It was done by skilled farmers. So, if you know what you are doing, then yes, you could go for the non natives and have success.
 
steward & author
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We've been here before.
https://permies.com/t/41008/dark-side-native-plant-enthusiasm

 
Mike Philips
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r ranson wrote:We've been here before.
https://permies.com/t/41008/dark-side-native-plant-enthusiasm



From that link:
“Myth: Native plants are better suited to your area “
 
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