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my first time indigo dye project with japanese indigo/dyers knotweed (Persicaria tinctoria)

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posted 2 days ago

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May, todays the day I finally began the dye project following your instructions!

My pots of indigo look ok although I've let them wilt several times over the summer and just today I noticed that 'something' probably our fearless groundhog, nibbled the tips out of a few stalks....time to harvest!

I picked 20 grams of tips so submerged in 700ml of water plus ~~100ml~~ 20ml white vinegar.

I love using my grandpa's balancing scale...his weights were ounces and drams but no grams so I found years ago that pennies from 1982 were just right for measuring grams as one penny weighs 2.5 grams and easily scales up from there.
The leaves weighed 16 pennies, so 40g.

I submerged the leaves at 2pm so tomorrow afternoon I drain the leaves and rinse with 100ml water....Do I save the drained water or the rinse water?
I'm confused as to which liquid I then whip or beat with an electric stirrer? including the leaves? reread and see that I use all of the drained off liquid for the next step, including the rinse.
I knew I would have questions once I began😊

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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posted 2 days ago

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besides the written instructions I'm referring to these posts with pictures😊
https://permies.com/t/120/37159/dyeing/Indigo-blue-growing-harvesting-processing#3460834

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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posted 2 days ago

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18 hours around 70F....give or take a few degrees.

I am not good at describing smells, definitely not rotten smelling...closer to cooked greens maybe?

nothing on surface...

will leave for a few more hours and figure out my drill with whisk set up. Hoping that wil aerate without flinging it all over the kitchen?
For such a small amount I think I could pour back and forth jar to jar?

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

May Lotito

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posted 2 days ago

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Looking good. I would pour the water out so it has highly pure indigo. Bruised leaves let out all kinds of non-specific stuffs that might interfere with later steps. The solution is mainly reduced so you can't see oxidized flim on top. It's easier to just pour back and forth with a small volumn like this. Forget the mention that when you do the calcium precipitation, do it in a titration mode, i.e. adding drops of concentrated solution and observe the changes. Once you see phase separation just stop adding, stir gently, and let it settle for a few hours. With the clear glass you would be able to see dark blue sediments and water is light green.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

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Judith Browning

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Location: a temperate, clay/loam spot on planet earth, the universe

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posted 2 days ago

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thanks May!
I strained it off and rinsed the leaves with 100ml water into a widemouth quart (3\4 full)..we took turns for 10 minutes pouring back and forth until dark blue.
Does it look dark enough?
I've poured it back in the vase to oxidize for three hours at 10:45am.

Are you straining through cloth after oxidation? coffee filters?

What do I dissolve the calcium in before adding...water or vinegar?

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

May Lotito

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posted 2 days ago

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The color is right. Yes, I would filter at this step to get rid of small debris. Have calcium in water ready. Sometimes the precipitation has other impurities and clumpy that you can use plain weave cotton for filtering, resulting in something pudding like. I find it tends to get moldy and stinky if not stored in fridge or dried down. If purity is high, the precipitation would be fine grits that needs small pore size like coffee filter. You will find out soon.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

Judith Browning

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I corrected a mistake above where I said 100ml white vinegar...I used 20ml.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

Posts: 10755

Location: a temperate, clay/loam spot on planet earth, the universe

3959

posted 2 days ago

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filtered out small debris and have added dissolved calcium.
I am barely seeing some clearing of the surface half inch or so....thought it would be more dramatic so am not sure I added enough? total was a quarter teaspoon....that is much more than 1\10th of the amount of washing soda.

oops...I didn't wait 3 hours.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

May Lotito

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posted 2 days ago

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If the water is still very blue, you can take a couple spoonful out and test how much more is needed. Just that you will have more calcium carbonate in the precipitation, which can be dissolved in the last step. Or just wait longer, sometimes I leave it overnight.

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Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

Judith Browning

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I removed a couple tbs and it looked much clearer than it appeared through the glass.
Will leave overnight.

Thank you for all of your help and guidance May!
I've needed something new in a different direction than my routine and now am eyeing spots for next years indigo patch!

I'll post a photo in the morning and hopefully it will have settled out nicely by then.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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Location: a temperate, clay/loam spot on planet earth, the universe

3959

posted 1 day ago

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I had to check...impatient I guess😊

It was looking so dark I decided to shine a light through it and now I can see particles settled on the bottom and some suspended that will should settle by tomorrow?

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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Location: a temperate, clay/loam spot on planet earth, the universe

3959

posted 1 day ago

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first photo at 6am this morning.

I poured off most of the clear liquid into one jar and poured the rest through a paper filter into a second jar.

Some pigment filtered out but the rest appears to have dissolved back into the liquid as it is quite blue again and almost opaque.

My impatient self then added the left over dissolved calcium that I did not use yesterday, gave it a stir and now see some pigment settling out again.

I'm afraid to rinse the pigment that I do have in the filter for fear it will all dissolve.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Stina May

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Location: Scotland, UK

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posted 1 day ago

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I've got to ask, what is the scientific name of the plant here? I don't see it mentioned in the thread.

Every concept I have of Indigo involves members of the Legume family (or Brassicas for "woad"), with true "Indigo" as I understand it being Indigofera tinctoria L., i.e.:

...which your plant clearly is not.

So now I'm very curious. What is it?

(the vats look amazing btw)

"Gardening is eleven months' hard work and one month's acute disappointment." - John Heathcoat-Amory

May Lotito

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posted 1 day ago

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I would rinse with water to get rid of salt, then 5% vinegar to dissolve excess CaCO3, then water again. You can go on with a small dyeing project in the jar. Or let it air dry and ground up the powder. It takes a lot of materials for large project.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

Judith Browning

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Stina May wrote:I've got to ask, what is the scientific name of the plant here? I don't see it mentioned in the thread.

Every concept I have of Indigo involves members of the Legume family (or Brassicas for "woad"), with true "Indigo" as I understand it being Indigofera tinctoria L., i.e.:

...which your plant clearly is not.

So now I'm very curious. What is it?

(the vats look amazing btw)

Hi Stina😊I should have mentioned that from the beginning!
I think I'm correct in saying it's Japanese Indigo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persicaria_tinctoria
also called dyers knotweed, chinese indigo.
My seed is from May.L.
Here's a link to the big Indigo thread and one for the big woad thread
https://permies.com/t/37159/dyeing/Indigo-blue-growing-harvesting-processing
https://permies.com/t/76750/dyeing/Woad-growing-harvesting-dyeing

I grew indigofera tinctoria years ago and the deer ate the plants so never had a chance to try using it.

It would be great if you can share your natural dye experiences here!

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

Posts: 10755

Location: a temperate, clay/loam spot on planet earth, the universe

3959

posted 1 day ago

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May, I think my rinsing is dissolving the pigment...I didn't expect much and have been enjoying rhe process....happy to see some lovely blue come out of those leaves even if I don't have a hold of it yet.

I have a well worn linen hankie I might immerse in the jar in the end and see if I get a little blue.

Now I'm excited to try again so will keep watering the plants in hopes they have time to branch a bit and have more tips to harvest.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Stina May

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Location: Scotland, UK

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Judith Browning wrote:I think I'm correct in saying it's Japanese Indigo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persicaria_tinctoria
also called dyers knotweed, chinese indigo.
[...]
I grew indigo tinctoria years ago and the deer ate the plants so never had a chance to try using it.
It would be great if you can share your natural dye experiences here!

Thank you, I did some googling and wondered if it might be that. It looks so leafy and easy compared with true Indigo! Makes me wonder if I could grow that species where I am. I once managed several bushes of Indigofera at a place I worked in Wales, and they were never very happy there. No deer, but too wet I imagine, so they were very sparse on foliage and rarely tried to flower. I never did manage to use any. At least Persicaria usually has no problem with rain!

My dyeing experience has been mostly with Woad (Isatis tinctoria), particularly Woad Balls, which is an old method of preserving the leaves in a way that helps ferment them at point of use to release more of the pigment. It's very many years since I did it, and never on any kind of scale, but I did love the process. I also particularly love the Woad shade of blue, which is slightly different to that of true indigo. It varies, but it often has a touch of ultramarine in it. Really beautiful.

Edit: formatting

"Gardening is eleven months' hard work and one month's acute disappointment." - John Heathcoat-Amory

May Lotito

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Judith, you can resuspend the pigments in a container of water. They will sink to the bottom, then pour off excess liquid. I took a pinch of the indigo powder I prepared a few days ago to test some shibori design quickly. I had to use a strong reducer this time since the volumn is so small. Traditionally alcohol from fermentation is the reducer in a deep vat. Last year I tried culturing indigo leaves in alkaline solution but couldn't get any spontaneous fermentation. I will try sukumo again, but I guess I need to buy the inoculants.

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Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

Judith Browning

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Location: a temperate, clay/loam spot on planet earth, the universe

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posted 10 hours ago

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your sample shibori is beautiful!

I'm stumped at the moment.
I have a jar of bluish liquid (from straining) that is not settling.
I do have a trace of nice pigment on a coffee filter that shows me the possibilities...I've dried and labeled for future reference....enough to make me want to grow a big patch next year!

I'm at a point where I realize there's too much I don't know about indigo dyeing....so am not even sure what questions to ask🙄

On the side I think I might have lost my chinese woad (isatis indigotica)
It has grown and gone to seed for years now and popped up different places in the garden with out any effort on my part.
Looking for it yesterday all I found was bermuda grass.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

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